Rudra

I'm always going to be against anything like this. For reasons already given. Not least of which is that if you make a desirable set that has the conversion proc in it, players are going to be happy to slot that set into as many powers as they can get the bonuses from, and that will provide the desired KB to anything else as added incentive. I am a single voice and not a dev. Devs will do whatever they please. This runs into the problem of "this set is just for us, and only us". Even knockback sets don't take that approach. If there is a new set introduced, I am of the firm opinion it should appeal to and be usable by as many players as possible. And a knockback set that solely exists to turn all knockback into knockdown as a set bonus effectively tells anyone that has knockdown powers that may want to keep any of them, that the proposed set is expressly designed to not be of any use to them despite having the same powers or how nice the set's bonuses are. New options should benefit as many as possible. (Edit: Or if aimed at a few, not give the metaphorical finger to other players. Options that only a few may be interested in should still be openly available to others without forcing them into a set play style. Procs change a single power, so they don't force a play style on a player, just change some of their available options.) You're going to run into the same "enhancement tax" argument from previous threads with this. "Why should I have to give up 3 potential set slots to slot this singular enhancement 3 times to get its benefits?! ENHANCEMENT TAX!" This is definitely a novel answer though. Haven't seen it before. And I do have to admit it is a definite compromise approach. I still favor the more sets with procs that give more enticing set bonuses approach myself, but I could potentially be okay with this too. I would need more data to make a final determination though.

I'm going to go out an a limb and assume you meant you're not looking.... I hear you. As I said earlier, I understand the opposition's stance. Yours is more... I want to say benign, but that is the wrong word... I don't know. However, if you look back through the threads, each time this comes up, it is because Lord or Lady Almighty Powermonger is upset that slotting SA's KB to KD proc hinders their uber build. However, SA gives some really nice bonuses. It is a single damage enhancement behind dedicated damage sets and gives comparable set bonuses, including set damage bonus and global recharge bonus. The bonuses are a little weaker than the best damage sets, but those small percentages are negligible. Except in the eyes of those that need to squeeze every last bit of efficiency out of their builds. So they claim "enhancement tax" because they can't build as uber as desired. Solution to that? Make sets that have a KB conversion proc that has either better bonuses, at the cost of having a higher minimum level, or grants bonuses more in line with what they say they are losing. And the response to that? No. Give us the ability to get rid of KB that doesn't use enhancement slots. Non-negotiable. And I don't know about you or anyone else, but it is extremely frustrating when you sit down and make a character that you absolutely enjoy and you take the time to learn all the nuances and gimmicks of the powers and the moment the team you eagerly join finds out what you are playing gives you the boot. Or demands that you go and buy the KB to KD procs and slot them, right now, lack of funds notwithstanding, or leave the team. That is not a KB problem. That is a perception problem. The perception that KB is a useless mechanic that can only cause problems for the team or slow down their efficiency. Which even you have claimed with your 30-50% reduction if you add in manipulation sets statement. (And I would appreciate evidence of that, because I really don't believe it. At all.) Yes, KB powers can be used to troll teams very effectively. However, a troll will find a way to troll their team without needing power sets that are KB heavy. They do so every day in the game. How do you deal with such a person? You boot them. Done. You can't turn to others and say "you can't use these power sets or effects because they can be used to troll us". That is unfair to the player that is just trying to play the game and be helpful. And if the player is causing problems for the team but is not doing so intentioanlly? You either help that person improve or tell that person "I'm sorry, but htis just isn't working out. Can you swap characters, stop using the problem effect, or maybe take some more time practicing with that character?" And if they prove to be a problem, you boot them. The answer is not to give those who prefer maximum efficiency a better means of telling those that enjoy KB characters that they have to play without KB. There are better solutions. I've tried to present multiple solutions in this thread. And they can even be used together. So here you have a "KB is good" player trying to work with the players in this thread that claim KB is bad, but the only one doing any negotiating in this thread trying to find a solution that meets your needs without stepping on my concerns, is me. Does that seem like an agreeable situation to be in? We already see KB players getting told they have to slot the KB to KD procs or be booted. We already see players getting booted jsut for having Energy Blast as their primary, though fortunately a lot less often than back on Live. So answer this to me please. What option would you, as in those in favor of the OP, be amenable to that does not grant such expansive ability to kill KB?

The devs can also introduce new sets that provide a KB to KD or KU conversion proc that also provide the bonuses of the sets others are claiming they are being denied because of the non-existent "enhancement tax" in their pursuit of the Ultimate Uber God Mode Build. And with the already mentioned players' willingness to donate to other players upon request, those new sets, or at least the procs initially, can be slotted by those that want KB to go the way of the dodo. And personally? If a team is adamant that you (generically) don't use KB? Then they can help fund you (generically) getting those procs to help you slot the sets. This is not a question of the "KB is good" crowd trying to force their play styles on others. This is a question of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd getting even more opportunities to tell others that they are not allowed to use KB. The option to turn KB into KD is already available and can be expanded upon. To the benefit of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd. The OP is a capitulation to the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd that will be used to further restrict the abilities of KB players from using KB, even when used to directly benefit the team. So it is a question of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd's imposition of their play style on others. Which the OP will make much easier for them to do. Edit: If there is a need for players to be able to swap between being able to do KB and not being able to do KB on the fly? Then make a suggestion for players to be able to swap their builds without having to hit up a trainer. A 5-minute timer can be placed on that for whatever reason, I guess. However, with that option, you can have a KB build and a no KB build and swap between them at will.

Inf' is easy to gain and there are players that will freely give you (generically) inf' on request. Especially if it is to slot KB to KD procs and you (generically) are trying to join a team. If you (generically) don't want to take the time to learn how to use a game mechanic to your advantage, that's on you (generically). Not the game. Not the devs. Not other players. That point fails. If you (generically) don't want to use IO's to enhance, improve, or modify your (generically) powers, that's on you (generically). The enhancements are available, and again, there are players that are more than happy to fund your (generically) acquisition of those procs. That point fails. Knockback is neither omnidirectional nor random. The only omnidirectional KB attack I am aware of is Nova from Energy Blast, which still predictably knocks everything away from your (generically) character. That point fails. If you (generically) can't get the enhancements to convert your KB and you (generically) want to join a team, tell the team you (generically) can't afford the procs yet. And if they decline to help you (generically) get them, then you (generically) and the team need to work together around the KB. I can still concede that point however because of how many teams I have found that won't help you (generically) and simply boot you (generically) off the team. No one is saying you (generically) need to be penalized or punished for using a KB power set. Nowhere can you or anyone else show me that anyone said you (generically) should be penalized or punished for using KB. That point fails. I have yet to see any explanation why getting more sets that actually give you (generically) the bonuses you (generically) want so slotting the procs isn't the "enhancement tax" you (generically) claim it to be is a bad thing. (Edit: Which leads me to believe that you (generically) want that situation to continue so that you (generically) can keep claiming "enhancement tax" and push for universal KB toggles or removal.) Want to try again? It may not be overpowered, but a set that does that already exists. Making sets work the same robs them of individuality. The "single power set, different flavors" thing I was commenting on earlier.

"Knockback is bad! Having to slot a proc to change it to knockdown is an enhancement tax! It prevents me from slotting the sets with the bonuses I want!" "Okay, how about some new sets that have procs that convert your knockback to knockdown or even knockup, and grant you the bonuses you want?" "No! I want a toggle or purchaseable power that converts all knockback to knockdown so I can slot the sets that give me the bonuses I want!" Because it is obviously not about trying to cram as much power into the build as is mechanically possible in the game and losing any amount of efficiency in the name of that pursuit is out of the question. (What is the difference of a shot more? Depending on your build, you don't even have to take any extra shots, you drop targets just as fast from your damage.) And because it is obviously not about keeping mobs in a single spot so the melees can kill it rather then let the character that knocked a foe away deal with that foe themselves. (The current meta is boring as hell, but that is the play style damn near every team I've been on demands of their members.) And because positioning a character to utilize knockback for effect instead of blindly firing at everything that moves from behind the party is as out of the question as moving a couple of feet to deal with a mob outside of the you-can-stand-still-and-murder-them-in-place crowd. (Using jump to get over a target to blast it into the ground? Too difficult or annoying. The character needs to be able to stand in a single spot and have the target stay in a single spot. Hello, static play.) And because asking for more knockback conversion sets that may actually benefit those players the way they want is out of the question. Because teams that tell others they have to slot the KB to KD procs or leave are an entirely fictitious creation of the "KB is good" crowd and no one ever actually gets booted from teams for even daring to join as an Energy Blast character. (Except, they do, and I have been. As soon as it was realized I was Energy Blast, had no KB to KD procs slotted, and was not willing to go spend inf' I did not have to do so. You can't buy a lot of procs with less than 3k inf'. And that would have required me to start a new build. Nope, no way in hell is it possible for a KB character to actually benefit the team. Buh-bye.) Because players using Assault Rifle can 'limit their attacks to just Burst, Flamethrower, Ignite, and the occasional Full Auto instead of using their full power in support of the team so they can avoid doing KB to the target and inconveniencing the team that obviously has to chase that target down' (paraphrased). Because a player "is better off just using their manipulation secondary until only one target is left before using any energy blast attacks" is a "sound"strategy. Because introducing a toggle or purchaseable power that lets players toggle KB into KD instead won't suddenly become the new "You will use this or leave. And if a single target is KB'ed, you will be booted." demand. Because players are unwilling to concede that there is more than one way to play the game instead of "round them up, keep them in place, and murder them en masse so we can save a few seconds on this mission". Because you obviously can't slot a knockback set like Energy Blast to do horrific damage to even EBs and AVs since "energy is heavily resisted anyways" without any proof that is true and a reddit page saying otherwise. Do you see and understand my frustration with threads like this? Do you understand why I and others are so opposed to the OP? I understand your stance. I disagree with it. Adamantly. I do understand your points though. What I don't understand is your opposition to other solutions that fit your needs. No, it absolutely has to be a toggle so that you can slot the sets you want and get the bonuses you want, not any new sets that may do the same thing and provide you a KB to KD or even KU conversion. No, it has to be a universal toggle that you can acquire and not lose any enhancement slots over so that you can slot the same sets over and over and over. And if it is a new set, it has to be a universal conversion and to hell with anyone that may want to use that set but keep some of their KB attacks as KB. Whatever. We are arguing in circles. Again.

What about other KB sets like Assault Rifle? Will every power set that uses KB have to incorporate the new combo system to make use of KB? Another problem is that for those of us that use Energy Blast for its KB would now have to build up our ability to use KB if our combo-triggered KB fails. That takes away a key tool for survival from us.

Go back and re-read the OP. The toggle would be built into the build screen. So you would still have to go back to the trainer to change it. Follow up proposals named Null the Gull instead as an option. So you would have to go to Pocket D and talk to Null to change it. So yes, my comment still stands.

Which is also achievable by using the existing options of slotting one build to convert your KB to KD and another build to not. A flat toggle is not the answer. More enhancement sets that grant KB to KD procs are. Make those sets more appealing to the "KB is suckage and should have never existed" crowd, and the complaints about an "enhancement tax" go away. Make new sets to expand the options for how players are going to play, not the toggle the OP is asking for. Edit: You can even introduce new sets that have a KB to KU proc instead for variety and entertainment factor. Edit again: KB to Kock In procs? Now you vacuum foes towards you? That could be entertainingly weird.

This suggestion is hilarious. I'm for it. I'll never use it, but it does give those complaining that they have too much inf' something entertaining to get that gives us paupers and lowly peasants both something funny to watch and a possible infusion of extra inf'.

Explain this then. Dropping what you are currently doing to chase KB'ed foes is not the same thing as quitting a team. Edit: Apologies for the tardiness of this post. I was giving @kelika2 time to realize the error of that post and hide it. Edit again: If that post does get hidden, then this one will be too. As soon as I find out.

The Chasers are described as being cheaper and easier to make than the Skiffs, so maybe they are drones? Trying to miniaturize aircraft isn't exactly cheap. And using cheaper materials including junk, which I believe was part of the Longbow Chaser's description, precludes it being an effective piloted platform. Entertaining head canon aside, I have to say I am against this too. Specifically for the limiting them to outdoor maps only. I can't say for certain in CoX, but in CO, all instanced maps were "indoor" maps even when flagged as outdoor maps. So you could never use your vehicles on the large outdoor instance maps. That said, maybe a compromise approach would work? A derivative platform that may be similar to the Sky Skiff but is not the Sky Skiff so it works for player models and can be used on indoor maps? Like a hover pod or something? I don't want to trash the OP. The OP itself is a fun idea. It just may not be implementable as proposed.

I can't decide if this is funny or aggravating. Either way, this statement is nonsense. I can't be unique in this. My Energy Blast Blaster does just fine. Admittedly, my Blaster is set up as Energy Blast/Energy Manipulation. And those choices synergize well. So Energy Blast does have a secondary that works with it. I can probably throw an Energy Blast/Devices Blaster together and have those sets synergize very well too. So far, your argument about EB being bad is that it doesn't mesh well with Fire Manipulation. So I have to ask, is that maybe because certain primaries and secondaries are designed to work together rather than with everything? Players can make whatever they want. And the options for what they can make and play is rather staggering. I love it. However, it is up to the player to figure out how to make the different power sets they take for their characters work together.

So because they can slot a SA or OF, they have to stick with just those two choices? The new KB to KD set is exclusively for those players that want KB to not even exist? I just went from being in favor of the OP to against it. If a set is made to convert KB to KD, it should be available to all players that want to convert KB to KD, not just those that want KB to not even exist.

Still doesn't change my stance on it needing to be a proc slotted into a power rather than a universal effect. I'm happy to have more sets. Gives players more options for their builds. I'm very much against a universal KB to KD though. Especially since that would mean players that are looking for more options for KB to KD but don't want it for all their powers would be left standing out in the cold with the proposed set. Making it a proc instead of a universal means that any and every player that wants to convert any KB to KD can use the set instead of just those players that want all KB to go away.

Of those 2 sets, one is a unique set and both are considered "enhancement taxes". They are considered "taxes" because the players slotting them can't get the bonuses they want from those sets. So they only slot the proc and then cram as much of their preferred set in as they still can. If the proposed KB to KD set were to give the players bonuses they wanted, then they would have an incentive to slot the set, maybe even the full 5 times, and stop calling KB to KD sets "enhancement taxes". Especially if you go the not-a-purple-set route you were thinking about to make it available to leveling characters.

I've always been told that some colors on some textures worked the way they did to prevent players from making nude characters and that skin color palette options are not available anywhere else for the same reason. I get the game is rated T, but come on. That line of reasoning was always silly. The players that figured out how to do so anyway? Their characters looked like they were wearing skin-colored body suits. (Or they just looked silly. Very, very silly.) Never naked. Kind of hard to look naked missing key attributes.

I would rather the set not have a universal KB to KD but instead have a proc that converts the slotted power's KB to KD. If making it a purple set, the 6-slot bonus could be a 10% recharge bonus, a 6% resist something, or basically anything else. If not a purple set, then just use a lesser bonus effect. Don't care as long as it is not a universal KB to KD set. *shrug* Otherwise? More sets that give players the option to change their KB to KD gives them more options for how to build, and that works for me.

No one is gatekeeping anyone's play style here. If you don't want KB on your powers, you can very easily slot the proc to change it to KD instead. That is why the procs exist after all. Edit: Different power sets call for different play styles. Sometimes even in the same AT. Players that demand those using KB power sets slot the KB to KD procs are the ones demanding others play using their preferred play styles. We're arguing against the power creep of the suggestion. The desire to be able to use more enhancement slots to make their character more efficient by not having to slot an enhancement to change powers to work the way they would rather they work. Edit again: I didn't find anything official, but I did find this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/c9yaot/general_enemy_average_damage_resistance_numbers/ Lethal: 14.60% Toxic: 13.70% Psionic: 11.19% Smashing: 10.80% Cold: 7.07% Energy: 5.84% Negative Energy: 5.51% Fire: 5.34% Removing the Archvillains/Heroes, Monsters/Giant Monsters, and Elite Bosses from the pool (leaving us with 571 enemies), these were the averaged resistances against each type. Lethal: 14.32% Toxic: 13.77% Psionic: 10.60% Smashing: 9.48% Cold: 6.31% Energy: 4.85% Fire: 4.66% Negative Energy: 4.54% According to that, energy is not "heavily resisted anyways".

Two if you want to convert KB to KD: Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force. Though Overwhelming Force is a unique set so you can only slot any of its enhancements once. You can ask for more sets that grant KB to KD too, you know. No one would argue against more sets giving more options. In fact, I would really appreciate if the devs were to toss us a few more sets that gave that option so those that want the KB to KD effect have different options for their builds. What are you talking about? There is nothing stopping you from slotting your powers however you want. My Energy Blast Blaster for instance has 0 KB to KD procs slotted. I have that character geared for pure damage. Anything I hit dies. If it doesn't? It goes flying away out of melee range to be finished off with the follow up shot(s). Who says you have to convert KB to KD to have a solid KB power set build? (Edit: I don't take that character on any teams other than friends because of how other players react to anything with KB. Those I play with when I use that character though? Haven't asked me to stop yet. I'm not dumb enough to run into a spawn of enemies and pop my nuke scattering them for instance. That is a troll move.) No actually, @Luminara is not making your point for you. Unless you are on an open field map, there is always a wall somewhere nearby to bounce foes off of regardless of if the map is a warehouse, office, cave, lab, or base. Or you can knock them towards the tank. Or you can knock them back into whatever area effects your teammates have set up. Or you can just waffle stomp them yourself. You can do your own KD effect by simply jumping over the target and blasting them. You can call dibs on mobs or entire spawns and just eat them. And you can do all that without ever slotting a single KB to KD proc.

Your argument is not as solid as you think it is. If Seismic Blast is basically Energy Blast except it uses KD instead of KB, then that is a reason to not change Energy Blast. We are trying to avoid power creep (being able to enjoy the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it, in this case as a build toggle) and avoid power set homogenization. Unless the end goal is for all power sets to work the exact same? Just different flavors of the same thing so a single play style works with them all? As for Thunderspy having already made this change? Don't care. Thunderspy can burn in a pit for all eternity for all I care. I do not like a lot of the changes Thunderspy made and would appreciate not having players trying to turn HC into Thunderspy. If what Thunderspy did is so great, then maybe play KD Energy Blast without KD procs on Thunderspy and play regular Energy Blast on Homecoming. That gives you the option to play both ways at will. (Not saying to go play on Thunderspy and go away, I'm saying if you can already play the way you like there, then play there with their version and play here with HC's version without trying to make the two very different servers the same.)

Psionic Tornado: 50% chance Mag +1.4 Knockup (all affected targets) https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.psychic_blast.psionic_tornado&at=blaster Try again. Edit: Sorry, @Luminara. Didn't see your response before posting mine. Edit again: And until I see the recipe that lets a player craft something that changes their powers (and is not a respec) without having to be slotted in an enhancement slot, I call BS on your claim about having a crafted recipe that permanently affects a power without being slotted.

You're correct, Dual Pistols does have both KB and KD, and using the swap ammo power lets you change that to toxic damage (from smash/lethal) with minor damage debuff on target, fire damage with DoT, or cold damage with slow effect. How it does that is by use of a power you must select and then toggle to do so. Which takes the place of the more ubiquitious Aim power other Blaster sets get in some form. So you are giving up a commonly taken power to get that ability. So instead of an "enhancement tax" as some players like to describe SA or OF, you have a "power tax". So even with that reference provided, I am still opposed to the OP. You want a new energy blasting power set that works more like Dual Pistols? Propose the set. You want to take Energy Blast or any other KB power set and not have KB, but have KD instead? Slot the proc. You don't want the proc to be a "tax"? Slot the set in part or whole. And using KU instead of KD is the same thing. No. I am opposed to that. If you want Energy Blast or any other KB set to do KU instead of KB? Ask for an enhancement set that does that.

I concede that the obvious effects are lesser than poorly used KB and at least in the case of immob'ed targets, simpler to deal with. Feared mobs just up and running away however doesn't require a power with a set fear effect. Damage patches and debuff patches or debuff toggles work almost equally well for that since mob flee mechanics are so seriously broken. I also concede that yes, the fear and immobs are more situational, both in application and number of powers that utilize such effects, than sets that have KB in all their attack powers and can be poorly used. My point that a troll is going to troll, an inexperienced player can be as detrimental to a team regardless of what game mechanics their power set uses, and that teams are surprisingly more willing to cut slack for even a troll trolling their missions if (s)he claims ignorance rather than work with a KB character still stands though.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The problem is a perceptual one or a play style one. I've been on full teams with KB heavy characters before, specifically Energy Blast, and there were no complaints because of how the Energy Blast player leveraged his/her character's abilities to work with the team. (Edit: Or because the Energy Blast player killed the KB'ed target(s) before the melees had to chase it down.) I've been on small teams where the moment someone realizes a character is a KB character, particularly Energy Blast, they very vocally and adamantly demand the KB player use KB2KD procs or leave the team. And if the vocal individual is the leader? Too often the KB player isn't even given the choice, let alone the opportunity to demonstrate how KB can be used, and is just booted. That is not an implementation problem. Nor is it a "KB is bad" problem. KB is one of those game mechanics that can be tricky to fully master. It is also one where vocal players won't even grant opportunities to see it can actually benefit the team. Yes, poor use of KB is detrimental to teams, but so is poor use of other game mechanics like immobilization. You think players can't "accidentally" immobilize targets outside of the other players' effect radii? Keeping the already scattered mobs scattered without stopping them from attacking? Which still forces those players that complain about KB to have to chase down the scattered mobs. Or how about spamming fear effects to make the mobs the Tanker is managing just up and scatter out of his/her/its reach? If trolls want to troll a team and make it look like "an honest mistake", they don't need KB to do so. However, players are typically willing to cut those other players slack "because they are obviously a noob and just need to learn how to use their abilities right". If a player doesn't know how to leverage a set's benefits, they can play poorly regardless of what secondary effects, or even primary effects in some cases, their character uses. The OP you proposed is not a fix. It is a cheat trying to get an enhancement's benefit without having to get and use the enhancement so you can devote that enhancement slot to something you deem 'better', or it is a cop out to the demands of players that won't even consider the benefits of KB, or worse, both. The first possibility is the desire to play ever more powerful characters in a game that already can't deal with all the power creep it has requiring the devs to come up with a whole new set of difficulties to try to compensate. The second possibility is just surrendering to others' demands that you play the way they want rather than the way you want. The third possibility is a surrender that seeks to eke out even more power as compensation. Edit: And no, I am not against having more options in the game. What I am against in this thread is trying to get a benefit without having to use what grants that benefit. No free procs. If you want the effect of an enhancement, then slot the enhancement. And for those getting ready to argue that set bonuses grant you enhancement bonuses without having to slot an enhancement for it? You're wrong. You have to slot 2-6 enhancements from a pre-defined set to get those benefits.

I read and re-read and re-re-read the OP. I don't see how you can say it is anything other than what I said it is.