Neiska

I use a fully slotted tactics, so I have accuracy there anyway. But even without it, your question really depends on the mission difficulty. +4/8 they might struggle, but I've had little issues on 3 or less. Not really no, I focus more on the resist/sustain than Defense. My melee defense is 30%, and everything else is around 19%. This is out of barrier however. Hasn't been an issue no. On paper it might be terrible, but it is fire and forget. But I do find to be a noticeable improvement. Free damage is free damage after all. I have no idea if the proc is bugged, beause it's really hard to tell. But I have my enflame slotted and proced anyway. It does great for me, but your mileage may vary. The -9.4% resistance from Lash/Corruption/Crack Whip? One lasts 2 seconds, the others last's 4 and 5 seconds. In order for you to reap the full benefit from the -res you more or less would be doing that "nonstop" to maintain the -28% resistance. Personally wither or not I take them largely depends on my secondary. Some sets like FF are very passive and have all the time in the world to take use those attacks, and the space to slot them. But Electric is a very busy set, you are healing, applying abosrb, dropping a cage, using enflame, bonfire/cc power of choice, managing pets, keeping an eye on everyone's END, so on. To me there simply isnt space in the build for them, both in power picks or slotting, or time to use in the rotation. It would be difficult to even keep a 5 second one up regularly, which would be 9.4% res debuff. I'm not saying such a thing wouldn't work, just might not be for EA's style. But if you want to give it a try then I say go for it.

I cited my numbers when they were fully slotted. My Faraday Cage is 6 slotted with Unbreakable Guard, and my T2 demons has one +resistance. And yes, I have tough as well, but bodyguard mode isn't shown in mids and I don't have RoP. Here's a screenie -

Hello @... Demon/EA is my 2nd favorite MM pairing and have played one quite a bit so hopefully I can help. The good - Demon/EA is one of the most survivable builds out there. I have outlasted some tanks and brutes before. You still aren't a tank without aggro tools however, but in terms of sheer raw survivability this is definitely up there, especially for a non-melee build. This build is capable of withstanding some truly impressive things, outdoing tankers/brutes in some instances. You are as tough as they are, but if they run out of END they often splatter. You on the other hand, should "never" run out, while being just as tough. The bad - Unfortunately, it won't win any DPS races. Demons by itself is good, but EA does very little to support it. It does have Empowering Circuit for a bit of +damage, but that's all to speak of. Playstyle - I have always had the best results from Demons when playing aggressively. I usually keep the prince and t2 pets in aggressive, and t1 pets in defensive. But to me this set definitely performs better when being aggressive with it, rather than defensive than Robots. You will want to be close to your pets to keep them inside your Faraday's Cage and to keep everything in range of your heals and absorbs. Slotting - You will definitely want to build for recharge, to make your Absorb/Heal as fast as possible, but also to get your Hell on Earth perma. Luckilly for MMs, this is easy to do with many options for Luck of the Gambler Global Recharge, but you can slot 2 pieces of the Supremacy set for 10% recharge reduction each time, and 4 parts of the other for another 10%. This is a total of 40% without any other sets considered. Powers Breakdown - Demons - I rank them 5/5 for Single target damage, but only 2/5 for AoE. They aren't "terrible" at AoE, but they aren't great either. Unless you "want" to take them, I would skip Corruption, Lash, and Crack Whip. They are decent picks in some builds, but with the MM damage penalty on personal attacks and increased END cost, they are rarely worth it. Plus /EA is a fairly busy set. T1 pets - I usually slot the T1 pets with a 2 piece AT for the 10% recharge time, a damage proc, and accuracy. Being as they are -3 to your level, they will need all the accuracy that they can get. T2 pets - I slot them with another 2 piece for another 10% recharge time from Supremacy set, but I also slot them with a +resistance as it does affect their buff. This is also a great spot for Soulbound chance for Buildup, as your Hellfire Gargoyle is your main AoE damage pet. T3 Pet - Hes also great for damage procs, and a 4 piece of the Command of the Mastermind set for another 10% recharge. Special Power - Hell on Earth - A great mule power, but with enough +recharge you can get this up to perma. I would use it on your Hellfire Gargoyle or Prince, depending on circumstance. It is both a 35% +damage buff, but also can spawn little hellspawn cinders which can add some DPS and more bodies on the field. The great thing about Electric Affinity is these temporary pets also benefit from all your +resistance effects, making them quite durable. At top end my cinderlings don't really "die," they last until they expire. Which if you can Perma Hell on Earth, more or less means you have a lot of free recharge pets that follow you around when spawned in combat. For Slotting I put 2 recharges in, a few of the pet IOs, but you can also slot it for Overwhelming Chance to KD unique. Electrical Affinity - My favorite MM secondary, I would rate it 5/5 for survivability and support. Not everyone likes this playstyle, however. Shock - Obligatory Powerpick, I usually don't slot it and either use it on Bosses/Elite Bosses or as a ranged Pulling power to aggro the next group without having to move. Rejuvenating Circuit - Your heal which is both cheap, fast to recast, and generous with targets affected. It does bounce however, so be aware of that for ranged targets. Energizing Circuit - Another great power that with enough slotting can give effective "infinite" END for everyone, especially if you recast it as part of your rotation. Faraday's Cage - "The" defining power in the set. Not only is it a 18% all res buff, but also makes you, your pets, and team mates immune to things like Knockback, Endurance Drain, Status Effects. Ideally you will want to keep all your demons inside of it while they fight. Empowering Circuit - Your only +damage power that gives 22% Damage to the first target, a bit less to others, but also gives them a bit of tohit as well. Defibrillate - A skippable power, in my opinion. Especially if you tend to solo more than team. Insulating Circuit - Your primary power, best used pre-pull to help absorb the alpha strikes. But fully slotted it can extend your pets effective health by roughly 20-25%. Amp Up - Sadly, this power doesn't work on pets, only players. Again, if you solo more than team, I would skip it. Auxillary Pools Leadership - I would suggest Maneuvers to help with pet defense, Tactics to help their accuracy, and Vengeance to serve as a mule for LotG Global Reduction. Sorcery - Some might be surprised by this suggestion, but you can take Shield Ward to stack +absorb with your Hellfire Gargoyle/Prince, Mystic Flight for mobility, but most importantly Enflame. Enflame goes a long way to help Demons mediocre AoE damage quite noticeably. You can have it up effectively permanently, only having to click it roughly once a minute, and can be slotted for damage procing as well. You "can" take Rune of Protection, but it isn't needed with Electric Affinity. Speed - Haste, obviously. But I also recommend taking Burnout. This is because you can use Hell on Earth, then Burnout, then immediately use Hell on Earth again on a different pet for a big boost in both damage and cinders on the field. Do be warned however that your Recovery will take a dip when Burnout wears off, but that is only a minor problem for EA. Fighting - The standard kick/boxing, tough, weave. If you find your own defenses lacking you can 4 slot kick/boxing with kinetic combat for another 4/2% S/L/Melee defense. Teleportation - You can take teleport self/combat teleport, but the real gem here is Fold Space which will let you pull things into your killing area, rather than you having to relocate yourself. Epic Pools Heat Mastery - My favorite epic power for this setup is Bonfire. This is because 1. It's a form of CC making things bounce inside your Fardays Cage, letting your pets wail on them. 2. It is a form of AoE damage, even if it's a dot. 3. You can slot it for damage procs as well as Annihilation -res. Mu Mastery - Fitting for theme if you care about such things, Electric Fences is one of the best Damage/Immobilize powers you have access too. It's a good immobilize, which you can actually get better than perma as it lasts 17 seconds with a 20 second recast to start, this is before all your recharge bonuses and so on kick in. The downside is it requires another power pick to take, neither of which is of great help - Static Discharge doesn't do enough damage for the cost, and you will already be resistance capped without Charged Armor. But if theme matters to you, then this might be worth taking for you. Mace Mastery - Web Envelope is very similar to Electric Fences mechanics wise, but does have the weapon draw animation, but doesn't waste precious power slots. Incarnates - Alpha - Musculature, no contest here. Your pets need every bit of damage they can get. Interface - I almost always recommend Degenerative, for the simple fact you can't really get -maxhp effect anywhere else, and you can slot -res effects into some powers. Judgement - Your choice here. Mighty can do an AoE Knockup to act as a tool to buy time if you need it in an emergency, but Ioun is the most thematic. Destiny - This is where Demons/EA really shines. Typically, a build has to pick 2 of the 3 following effects - Effortless END management through Ageless, Status Protection through Clarion, or Superior Durability through Barrier. However, with EA you can effectively have all 3 - Faradays Cage gives you and your pets Status Protection, and Energizing Circuit gives you "effective" infinite END, which leaves you free to take Barrier. To put it bluntly, you sort of get 2 incarnate effects through Electric Affinity, which is why it is a very potent set, even though its entirely defensive minded. Hybrid - I would go Support. Yes, if you want to juggle pets they can benefit from Assault, but I personally think its too much work for too little gain over simply using Support. If that doesn't bother you, then Assault might be the optimal choice. How it all comes together - So you have +absorb, heal, status protection and immunity, with a few damage buffs. You might get the best results by playing aggressively once you have all your tools, trying to keep as much of the fight inside your big bubble of demonic DEWM through Fold Space/Web Envelope/Electric Fences/Bonfire, and use powers like Hell on Earth and Enflame to support your pets as much as possible. The highlight of the playstyle - Though combined total effects, you never have "low" levels of survivability, only peaks of "not capped." You use Barrier, with absorb/heals/capped resists being plenty to manage the downtime when barrier isn't up. And since you and your pets are all resistance capped, you can take a truly stupefying amount of damage with bodyguard mode, absorbs, and heals. Anyway, know that was a lot to throw at you. But I hope it all helps!

I don't use keybinds either, what I do is drag the commands from the pet window to my tray. 3 Rows of trays, with tray 1 being t1 pet follow, attack, guard, etc. Tray 2 being the same for the t3 pets, and tray 3 being for t3 pet. I also put the all follow, all attack, all defend command there too. So i can still manage all my pets as i need with a few mouse clicks. PS - I use "Advanced" pet window, not the base one.

And I'll just point out that the first post of removing the AE is in post #5 of this thread was where the whole move/remove AE discussion began. And no matter how you try to slice or rationalize it, my original response to this has always been - more options are good. CoH is, and always has been, "play your way." And this is removing options, for new players. Players, even new ones, should have the right to decide if they want to use AE or not. Who are you, I, or anyone else to tell them otherwise? They are free to get rushed/farmed, just as they are in any other game. Also, I will add that moving the AE from starting zones, will likely have minimal effect anyway. At level 10-12 people usually move into the next newbie zone. So what difference would it be from being able to immediately use it, from using it the next zone over? It's not as if a new player once they learn its location, cant just make an alt and run there anyway, right? I would call that a strawman as well. You say "new players shouldn't be catapulted out of the gate." I agree they "shouldn't," but I don't agree with taking away the option to do so, if they so choose. Players, even new ones, should be able to choose their activity, just the same as doing any other - contact missions, random patrols, base building, roleplaying, playing the AH, etc etc. The real strawman here is the argument that power leveling a new player will somehow magically make them disinterested in playing, when it is entirely just as likely a new player can go "wow, this is awesome, I can make as many characters as I want, try any powers I want, as many ATs as I want, and can have the money to do so, and it won't take years of game time." True, SOME might go "eh, this game is too fast." But SOME are just as likely to go "...this awesome." And who are we to tell anyone otherwise? Players, new and old, will like what they like. And I take a pretty dim view of using questionable moral/for the greater good arguments to try and persuade their decision on how to enjoy the game.

@UltraAlt

Well, this isn't exactly how I planned to spend time on a Monday morning, but here we go. Nor do I go looking for it, but I would not call seeing it in /General channel or seeing them posted in these forums at least once a month as "going out of my way to look for it." Take this very thread which in no way was started meant to do with farms at all whatsoever, and yet here we are. Again. Ah, yes. Me respectfully posting my side of things is so very much alike to painting a target on my own back. We can't have a civil discussion about it, no no no, of course not. Better to just label the opposition whatever term is convenient for the moment or make insinuations in the most vague possible terms that's all the better to devalue their points instead of addressing them. How dare I defend my own opinion and forms of enjoyment which are in no way against the rules. FOR SHAME! (am I doing it right @Snarky?) Perhaps what you don't understand is that this is no longer NCsoft, and that HC in all likelihood could give a flying sack of leaky rat farts about what DEVS said on live on any relevant policy. Moreover, I disagree - even if AE as removed, there still would be farming, merely a different version of it. But I will get to that point in a moment. And yet it rings true. The live DEVS have zero authority as to what goes on in HC, just as the HC staff might have had to say on live. Unless of course, one of the HC staff also happened to be on the staff during live, in which case they are the same person, but I doubt that is the case. Let me elaborate in simpler terms - you are comparing apples to oranges. The policies on Live to the policies in HC as some sort of validation to suggest that ever since the live Dev's "backed down" as you put it, everything that ever came after that was somehow null and void and "wrong?" It doesn't matter what they did or didn't do on live. The staff aren't the same people. It isn't the same game. It isn't the same company. That was over a decade ago, in a different time, with a different community. You are really setting the bar for nostalgia goggles here. I think you are perhaps the confused one in this scenario. You seem to be suggesting that the current HC staff, allow the decisions made a decade ago by the staff of another company dictate their own policies now? That doesn't strike you as a bit ridiculous? I think you vastly over estimate the value of your opinion on HC policy. Or are you expecting the staff to be in a meeting to go "We are about to make a decision on policy. Quick! TO THE FORUMS! We simply MUST hear the opinion of UltraAlt! What would he do? We need answers, STAT!" Your opinion bares no greater weight than mine, thank you very much. Right, first off, nobody involved would agree on what the term "abuse" would mean in such a situation. But let's play hypothetical here. For the sake of argument lets say by whatever reasons you care to pick, AE was removed. Gone. Poof! Pixies magically klepped it in the night. You know what would happen? A few things - Firstly, farming would still happen. People would simply figure out what now the most expedient way to level. Whatever activity that happened to be. It could be a specific story arc, or a certain mission, or just standing around on autopilot. "That" would be the new "farm." As an example I would point to DFB. People used to run that to 20 or so until it was nerfed into the ground. Now, people may run it once for the badge, and move on. Or run it a few times. What they do instead is do other things. And, for the record, doing the work and figuring out the way to play the game most efficiently is not cheating/exploiting, its simply playing smarter. Unless of course, rules state doing X thing is wrong, which they don't in this case. There are even rules fo rmultiboxing, so, am I to assume you are going to say that since Live had different rules on multiboxing, that we are cheating by doing it now on HC, even though the rules are different now? Here's a news headline for you then. People like to make alts. People can still be attached to their alts. Or to MANY alts. And this might shock you to your very being but, people might be just as attached to their alts/farmers as you are to your own character. Shocker, I know. Another obvious fact of life. You seem to like to suggest that there is an entire horde of farmers just cranking out multiple armies alts without rhyme, reason, or thought. Let us pretend for a moment that they were - So what? What business is that of yours what others do in their time? Hint: It isn't. Up and until this post I had thought it was a mutually respectful discussion until that point, until I seemed to detect a level of platitude in your latest reply. And one thing I have been hesitant to bring up until now is I suspect that some of these voices saying "nerf AE" might in fact have harder and harder times filling their task forces or teams, or simply finding themselves fewer people to play with. And they might possibly feel that by removing the AE tool, suddenly all those people who were farming will now suddenly add to the pool of possible team mates. I am not suggesting in any way you are such a person, but I think it would be a bit childish to pretend that might not be a cause of outcry against AE for some. You think Door sitting is wrong. Good for you. Then don't do it. Many others feel it isn't wrong. And their opinion and gameplay is just as valid as your own, whatever yours happens to be. Because until HC staff comes out and states "Doorsitting is wrong" then your opinions are only just that, not a fact, rule, or policy. So stop using your mere opinion as some sort of moral high ground to lecture people whose game hobby has exactly nothing to do with yourself. You want to go out and do contact and news paper missions? Fine. Go do it. I am happy for you. Maybe if you spent more time playing and having your own fun, and less time worrying about what other people are doing for fun, you may have more of it. Because attitudes like yours in fact drive away many players. The argument of "I am RIGHT, therefor all who don't believe precisely as I do are WRONG" is a source of needless grief in the world. You like to play a certain way. And that's okay. But other's like to play a different way. And that's okay too. Even if YOU don't like how THEY play. Their play, isn't ABOUT you, or what you THINK is right, or wrong, or what is exploiting, or what isn't. Because HC has made their policy already pretty clear about it. Which would make that play, not exploiting. But for what it's worth, thanks for helping me kill a bit of time at work. Cheers!

But that's kind of the point, there was no single reason but several. - They were sued by marvel. The case was dropped but I think it would be silly to think that didn't impact their decision. - The game was profitable, but not profitable enough. - The main owner, cryptic, sold their rights to NC soft. - The new owner had other projects going on as well such as Guild Wars. - Keep in mind that NCsoft suffered a 6-million-dollar loss in Q2 of 2012, and actually went bankrupt in 2013. They also closed several of their studios, not just CoH. - There was also a declining player base even 10 years ago. Those that remained were like us, die hard fans, but even back then numbers were slowly lowering. - Let's also take a moment to look at the other games at the time. The main games at the time were - WoW, Guild Wars 2, Star Wars: The Old Republic, EVE, Rift, Lord of the Rings Online, and Diablo 3 also came out that year. - CoH wasn't the only MMO to end either. There were other titles such as Vanguard, Warhammer Online, and a whole host of much smaller MMOs that have come and gone. But the truth of the matter is, is that unless we were sitting on the board meeting, none of us will truly know. NCsoft did publish a few statements - To their fanbase - To our Community, Thank you. Thank you for your years of support. You've been with us every step of the way, sharing in our challenges, encouraging us to make City of Heroes better, more than everyone else thought it could be. We couldn't have come this far without you. I implore you all, focus on the good things of CoH and Paragon Studios. Don't dwell on the "how" or the "why", but rather join us in celebrating the legacy of an amazing partnership between the players and the development team. And this is a statement they left with IGN - Both NCsoft and Paragon Studios are incredibly proud of the success of City of Heroes, but unfortunately, the continued support of the franchise no longer fits within our long term goals for the company. All employees at Paragon Studios are affected by this decision, including the management team. We will begin the City of Heroes sun setting process immediately with the goal to officially stop our service offerings for the franchise on November 30, 2012. This was a very tough decision to make and wish the best for all Paragon Studio employees in their next ventures. So there wasn't really any single cause. If I had to put it all together I would say that NCsoft looked at the various points above, and decided to trim down on side products that while profitable, they may not have been able to keep affording the servers. maintenance, staff, and all the other assorted upkeep costs. The fact they closed several studios and products at roughly the same time sort of implies this. Now if they had bought CoH, let it run a year, and closed it down by itself then I agree it could have been a case of the greedy bean counters at play. But everything mentioned here suggests something larger was at work. I mean, they actually went bankrupt shortly after CoH was closed. Which also tells me that at the time they closed it, it was a sinking ship, and they were trying to avoid bankruptcy. So they closed CoH and their other products that didn't meet whatever cost/profit ratio they decided upon and tried to upright the ship. Obviously, that didn't work. Hope this helps! PS - Another thought occurred to me. NCsoft bought CoH in 2007. But the game actually went free to play before the shutdown in June of 2011. Which I suspect was kept alive by NCsofts other products at the time, as well as those annoying ingame advertisements that some of us remember. If I was a company like NCsoft facing bankruptcy, a game in such a state would be the first thing to go. If it was kept alive by ingame advertisements, those likely were enough just to keep the lights on and the staff paid. But that's just me musing.

Hello @Ukase I might be able to offer some advice if I saw your build setup. But just so you know a MM will never match a Brutes damage 1 on 1. But it can exceed it in other ways. But if damage is what you value most in a build/at, then MMs might be frustrating. But for others the AT can be quite powerful. A LOT depends on your primary/secondary pairings, possibly more than other ATs. But /Time is a strong contender, and you will notice a bump once you get the ye old Power Boost + Farsight/Chrono. But it helps knowing beforehand that MM's overall are very customizable in how they fight, but aren't concerned with damage as much as they are about controling the engagement in a variety of ways, such as buffing, debuffing, slowing, knockdown/knockbacks, so on. With /Time in particular it shines in a few ways - 1. As mentioned its quite easy to softcap defenses for you and pets with Power Boost + Farsight, but Power Boost also affects the healing of your Chrono Shift. This does lock you into the /Mace pool if you wish to do this however. 2. You can stack the -SPD with your Time's Juncture with Distortion Field, slowing enemies considerably. 3. Slowed Response adds a bit of -RES that adds to damage taken. As far as Damage itself, here are a few things that can help - 1. If you were unaware, you can "drag and drop" red inspirations onto your pets. Just click and drag it to their hp bar in the pet window, and if you are in range they will "use" it. This works for all inspirations except rez. 2. Some pets can slot chance to damage procs. This is great for a set like /Time where they have a Mule (Gangwar) for their pet IO sets. It may not sound like much but it I've found its noticeable. Some pets can slot more than one of these, and they also stack with your Interface Incarnate ability later. 3. A few things with Gangwar itself. Not only can you slot it with the pet Aura IO's, but you can also slot damage procs into it as well, making it hit a bit harder. But you can also slot the Chance to Knockdown unique there as well, which is particularly effective when paired with my next point. 4. With Thugs, it is strongly recommended to take Burnout. You can pop Gangwar, then Burnout, and immediately use another Gangwar. It is a very strong ability that is great against tough single targets. 5. Another option that does well with /Time, is taking Bonfire from Heat Mastery. Doing this will lock you out of Power Boost, but Bonfire is one of the best Proc/CC powers MMs have access too. You can load it up with damage procs and a knockdown, and pretty much locks things into flopping about in a patch of fire while they take damage. I still recommend Power Boost, but this is an option if you want more damage. I am afraid without seeing your build this is all the advice I can offer. Overall /Time is very strong, but it's more of a Support/Defense secondary than offensive. MMs have a few options for more Damage/Offense such as /Storm, /Kinetics, or /Dark Miasma, but not very many. Hope it helps!

Have to disagree here, whole-heartedly. It was a multitude of issues at the time, not a bunch of greedy CEO bean counters as suggested. They were sued by marvel, had other side projects going on, and a whole host of other considerations. Here is an older video that explains it pretty well - So please don't throw in "Capitalism BAD" into the discussion, especially when its untrue.

I agree to a point. While there are certainly people who care not for theme, flavor, "fun", and only go for what is .0024% the most numerically superior in the majority of content, I would bet there are just as many people who use builds that are purely for fun, theme, how they look, or even how they play, or whatever other reason they happen to like a sub-optiomal build. Heck I have met a handfull of people who picked their AT's/Powers based entirely on how they looked visually. After some discussion they explained they are sort of a "story teller" for their SG, and run their own little roleplay in AEs/Bases and the like. And so they would take powers that gave them visual tools for that. Their choices weren't combat oriented at all, which I thought was a pretty awesome thing to see.

Pretty callous attitude toward a small group of people who work solely for the pure joy of the game and sharing that joy with thousands of random strangers, entirely on their own time and entirely for free without so much as a dime in personal profit. Personally, I am ecstatic we get updates at all under such circumstances. Not sure who is making a shocked Pikachu face about people coming and going. I would say that is the normal state of affairs.

Present a problem or point of contention, add opinion A, sprinkle opinion B, add in a bit of @Snarky and the new players will come! It's Science!

Thank you for your reply. You touched on several points which I will try to address individually. 1. - I honestly haven't heard anyone say that "we should nerf farming content". I don't think AE Farming should have been allowed to begin with (The DEVs stated that they would ban accounts that created farming missions prior to the release of AE and then caved after release of the AE because banning players became - I'm assuming - an issue. I think they said something like they were going to take a 40-ton ban hammer to anyone that created exploitive/farming content on the live servers. And promptly deleted that post after they caved.), but I have never said it needed to be nerfed. - My reply to this is that you must not have looked very heard, either on the forums, even here in this thread, in the discord, or perhaps the most important place of all - actually ingame. If I had to give a rough restimation, I would say I see that precise topic come up at least once a week, in any one of the various places mentioned. About your comment with the DEVs - HC is not "Live." The Devs of Live, have little say in HC, or vice versa. They use the same game engine, but different rules with a different community and different host. So your comparison is largely moot. Wither or not "Live" had farms/ae has little baring or relevance on if we have farms here and now. 2. - I will say that I thought it was bad enough in that people were doing it in actual game missions by not completing maps and resetting them. I do put farming missions into the barrel of the old herd all the warwolves into a dumpster thing (and that was something that was a farm and an obvious exploit/cheating). I never complained about either needing to be nerfed but I didn't join teams doing either. I have been known to say that I think PL'ing and farming are an issue and that they take away from player retention. -My reply to this is that, no matter what rules you try to enforce, either here or in any other game, someone with the intelligence to do so will figure out the fastest most efficient way to gain levels, currency, or whatever that game has. As an example, during one expansion of WOW, the first person to level cap figured out that the fastest way to gain exp was not by fighting or questing, but by traveling around and getting all the mining nodes. And that person hit the new level cap hours ahead of anyone else. Point of the matter is, for some people out there, both figuring out, as well as being the fastest/most efficient way to do something, "is" their main enjoyment, no matter the game. For such persons, often enough different games are just décor and garnish, they find the numbers, the theory crafting, and simulations more entertaining than the game itself. As far as your personal stance on PL'ing and what you believe its effects are on player retention, well, thank you for proving my point. First off, you have no proof that it does, or that it doesnt. None of us do. Only the hosts have access to such data. And it is generally an ill advised action to make rules and policy based on "I think's" or "I feel's," no matter the context. 3. I don't know of anyone that has said "We need to nerf/remove all PVP activities" from the City. I don't even know where that one is coming from. What I see is players thinking that the DEVs don't need to take additional time working on content that only benefits a small portion of the community ... unless of course, that is something that they want to work on personally. - My statement in this was meant to be an illustration of how ridiculous this same argument would sound coming from any other group/faction. If you re-read what I wrote again you might realize I was highlighting that we DON'T hear such arguments from people who enjoy those other playstyles, ONLY from those in the "die hard open world content only" crowd, as if that was the single activity, method, or source of enjoyment in the game. (Which it is not.) And in case this is lost on you, I find the fact we have NOT heard such arguments pretty telling. 4. No one should be "strong-armed" into anything. People are here to game and have fun. If they don't want to farm, don't farm. if they don't want to PVP, then don't PVP. But I think that players that sit at a door and level up to 50 and know nothing about the end-game are not going to become long-term players. I don't think players coming to CoH expecting to find a vibrant and active PVP community are going to find one and they likely aren't going to like the mechanics they are looking for. - I both agree and disagree. We agree that no one should be "strong-armed" into anything. But you go in one statement from "no one should be strong armed" to "door sitting is wrong" in the same statement. That doesn't strike you as a bit of a paradox? You say people should be free to play their way, then immediately say you don't approve of how they play? And, you have no proof/evidence that new players who level up to 50 and then play DON'T continue to do so, any more than you can prove that they DO. Which makes your entire point purely hypothetical or instinctual. You are certainly free to play your way. But this is precisely the sort of thinking that I was illustrating in my previous post with regards to "stop worrying about what everyone else is doing." And I say this for many reasons. Because 1. You, myself, nor any player on the forums is in a position to do anything about it, and 2. threads like these do more harm than good, what is a new player supposed to think when they come cross such a post? To me it would come across as a veteran player who is gatekeeping, which is not something I would care to partake in personally. So if I did play the game, it would only further incentivize me to go strictly solo in missions, farms, or whatever else. Best wishes.

After some thought I still say that the best philosophy is - "You play the game how you enjoy. I shall play the game how I enjoy. And we will meet in the middle somewhere" I do suspect if some players (direct at no one specifically) are perhaps focusing a bit too much on what others are doing, instead of their own play and activities. Moreover I still question the concept that changing/removing/altering one aspect of play such as AE will foster a sudden growth in people who want to do open world content. As if the majority of farmers have ONLY farmed, and have not in fact, already have done the other content already, as much as they desire to. So where is this concept that changing their current activity will somehow want them to go back to content they have already sampled? Were I a betting woman I would bet the opposite would happen - instead of farmers doing open world content on occasion as it is now, farmers suddenly unable to farm would be more likely to leave the game entirely, making the current community/population problem even more prevalent. And to be honest, I am starting to find the entire idea reaching the point of ridiculousness. I mean we don't hear Farmers going "We should nerf all nonfarm content, here is why" or Pvpers going "We need to nerf/remove all non pvp activities." We have only heard this kind of argument from PVE folks, which I find troubling as a PVE person myself. And, this is just purely me speculating, this argument makes me wonder that if some of these people who feel they have the right to call for nerfs/changes in the game that other people enjoy, solely for the fact of artificially forcing those same people to play with the originator of the argument, then perhaps those same originators are simply not pleasant to play the game with or be around, particularly if they feel so motivated that they feel they have the right to dictate to other fellow players the "right" or "wrong" way to play the game, as mere players themselves. TLDR - Perhaps focus on your own enjoyment and gameplay first, and stop worrying about what other people are doing. If you can't find other people to do the activities you enjoy, I wonder why "other" people have to do activities "you" enjoy, instead of "you" being strong-armed into activities "they" enjoy. Just food for thought.

A few more thoughts about player retention, more then recruitment. These are my mere thoughts and opinions, and aren't directed at anyone specifically. 1. More varied mission types - A lot of the missions seem a bit repetitive. They are either - Rescue NPC #4591, Find the glowy-clicky, defeat X number of things, or get X being and the enemies in their vicinity. Not "every" mission can fall under these, but I feel the majority of them. It would be nice to mix it up and have new mission types, like a mission where you are sneaking "out" of a base, and not "in", where you don't know where the exit is. Or even missions where it is Side A vs side B and you are watching them fight it out, and so on. 2. More varied "random" events. Not just "X force spotted" or "X thing is attacking." They are too similar, and also almost too predictable. Unless it's a holiday event, or a friend needs a badge, I really don't get much excited anymore. 3. This suggestion might split the community somewhat, but how would people feel about special badges? For example, a special badge for someone who got to level cap without using AE, or who has hunted down every GM in the game, or every AV? Maybe make "playstyle" badges of some sort? What about supergroup badges? As an example, lets say a team of the same supergroup finish story lines, contact arcs, so on, and those who were present got a special sort of group badge for it? Badge hunting/collecting is a perusable activity as well. 4. One thing that I have noticed that few have commented on is PVP. I am not a PVPer myself but I support those whom are. And out of the various playstyles (PVE, AE, AH, PVP, etc) Pvp has the "least" amount of tools/systems available to them. I mean, if there was something like a seasonal ladder or ranking system, people might become more interested and competitive. I dislike open world PVP myself because A. I'm bad at it and B. It seems more of a gankfest than a duel. But I do agree that PVP does give another legit form of gameplay that some are passionate about, and I don't think it would take overly much to give them a few tools to make it a more legitimized and popular form of play, as well as replay-ability. Just some more random thoughts from me while I kill time at work.

I have always enjoyed Bio Armor the best. While it is a bit of a late bloomer and requires lots of recharge, the different stances go quite far for different situations, and more healing/regen/absorb is solid for nearly any activity regardless of damage type. Only certain things like Hami that ignores absorb does it have issues. But its been fine for every sort of enemy type I have tried it against. And as a bonus if you don't need the extra survivability you can go offensive mode.

As others have mentioned I usually take Banished with my Demons - they fit thematically as well as mechanically. But if you don't wish to there are other options. I am fond of longbow as well as the are all ranged and should pair well with demons melee focus. I suppose the bigger questions is if you the MM in question prioritize theme, enjoyment, effectiveness, uniqueness, or a combination of them. But I have seen people do some very creative things, such as the polar light pets and rping them as wil-o-wisps and the like.

I agree that the "why" may vary person to person. Some may value remote trading, others may not. Other games have this feature, I only mention it as an idea. I have little knowledge of coding and what would be required, and yes, it is of questionable merit, but I was under the impression we were brainstorming ideas and suggestions. It might be noteworthy to remotely check to see if anyone from your global or friends list are on as well. Discord falls in the same vein to my mind. Some may value it, others my not. As with anything, your mileage might vary according to values and preferences.

As others have mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a good way to attract new players would be various forms of advertisement or communication. Advertisement often requires money however, so I think most people would agree that isn't a viable option, at least right now. Streaming might do some good to bring attention now that people can do that, or simple word of mouth to friends. Also bare in mind that our already grey legal status gets murkier whenever money is involved, so that is a thing that I presume the HC staff would prefer to avoid, at least at this current state with an active community, even if its shrunk in the past two years. But I wouldn't be surprised if that was expected either. But with this keep in mind the competition - newer games, with paid advertisement and promoters. Their staff are also paid positions where this is a volunteer one, likely worked on when they can or desire to. I don't mean to sound as a naysayer here, but, I do think we should keep realistic expectations along with our (both the HC staff and our community) capabilities. Also, I imagine that threads such as these (not the topic itself, but the back and forth between members of different camps/opinions) do little to encourage newer players either. Food for thought.

So, just to clarify, according to you, it's perfectly acceptable for people to enjoy the game that you favor, but not in the ways other people favor? "My way or the highway" as it were? And you seem to be under the impression that others are not as genuine as yourself in their intentions, or as if there is no merit whatsoever to AE. Moreover, myself and others have pointed out that AE has its own community. So, what, that community doesn't matter, or isn't as important? You seem to think you have the superior argument or the moral high ground in this conversation, which you do not. But let us set aside viewpoints a moment and think about this logically. With that in mind, here are a few thoughts - 1. Firstly, this pretext of "helping low levels in X way is wrong" I would argue is inaccurate. If a new player makes the choice to get power leveled, then they are free to do so. Even if it isn't through AE itself but by another means such as PI teams. You are artificially trying to force new players to enjoy the game as it was when it was first released, in the same manner as you did. My argument is not only is this wrong to do (forcing your gameplay upon another), but many such things have changed in that time. Not only in the kinds of players, but in game design, other games on the market, and so on. To be blunt, games are designed to be faster paced now. As an example I would bring up games like Everquest or Diablo 2, where a person might spend years improving their character. And going by "normal game play" as you suggest, it would take quite some time to not only achieve maximum level, but to gather the funds to equip it, as well as to fully gear up incarnates. 2. Secondly, this "slow adventure mode" of the game, is in no way guaranteed to foster new players, and in fact might drive some away. What is to stop any new player coming and going "This game is so slow. It sucks. I'm going elsewhere." 3. Helping players in any form, (even if it's a form you personally disagree with), is in fact of a healthy community. There are any number of games where their communities do not do this that I could use as an example of what a festering community really looks like. 4. Next, I would like to ask precisely where is it written that a new player MUST play precisely as you do, or to use open world content? It isn't. There is no rule. CoH always has been a "create your own path" style of game, which I believe in truth is its greatest strength. You can make whatever you want, play how you want, wear what you want, pick what powers you want, go where you want, and fight what you want. Or you may choose not to fight at all. So I am curious where this "players should play X way" argument comes from, as even back on live, that didn't hold true, and it never did. And perhaps you might forget, new players are free to choose to farm/power level if they so wish. And you telling them "that's wrong" is only correct under your specific viewpoint, and not anyone else's. 5. You are actually incorrect on what you suggest I think about your points. I know you care about CoH, and I respect your opinion. I merely disagree with them. You only have this argument because you care about the game and are passionate about it, and I admire that. And while I would love an influx of new players as much as you would, I feel it would be wrong to stifle one part of the community in doing so, no matter what method was used. 6. One point I take issue with is the assumption that power levelers and farmers are just, hanging out in atlas and mercy going "Psst.. hey newblood. Ya want some exps?" when that painted picture is so laughably inaccurate its almost offensive. In 99.9% of circumstances, we post something like "PI group forming, 3 spots open" or "Farm starting, 4 spots open" or something similar. And whoever responds to it, responds to it. I can think of only a handful of instances where someone was obviously a newbie. Personally, I farm in pocket D exclusively, where people have to have at least some knowledge about where to go and how to get there. Only once, or perhaps twice did I have to explain to someone how to get there. In nearly every other instance, out of 2 years of farming, with hundreds of maps, players already knew where to go, what to do, and what was expected of them. The point of your argument as worded suggests that there are legions of nefarious mustache twirling villains just waiting to poach a newbie and set out to purposefully ruin their coh experience, which when viewed through any lens, simply isn't the case. I can't remember the last time I stepped foot in the "newbie" areas with one of my farmers, and I am skeptical that the issue is anywhere near to the suggestions presented here in previous posts. 7. Finally, as others have pointed out, I agree with the idea that the "golden age" of Homecoming is likely past, and what remains are a handful of people trying it out for the first time, and the rest of the community are likely passionate fans of the game who will stick around as long as they choose to. It is unlikely that no matter what actions are taken, will we see a sudden influx of widespread new players. I would dearly love to be proven wrong, but I am skeptical that it will happen, considering what other games are available compared to this one now. Again, I wish to re-iterate that I admire your passion and dedication to the game, and that I simply disagree with some of your points as well as your suggestion that we only help new players in a certain manner. Nothing of what I have said here or elsewhere was meant to be personal in any manner, and that I only dispute the contexts and points of your arguments. Best wishes.

Pepperidge Farm remembers those old wood burning kits whose tips would get 1000 degrees with nothing but a quarter inch of cork and plastic to protect your hand. Or those at home chemistry sets with actual bars of magnesium, or minute amounts of actual dangerous material. But there is a true story where an Eagle Scout built a nuclear reactor in his backyard, by collecting nuclear material from hundreds of smoke detectors, camping lanterns, and glow in the dark paint off clocks. Youtube "Radioactive Eagle Scout" if you want the full story. It's honestly quite amazing.

If I might play armchair philosopher a moment, I believe this statement says far more about you than the people you are addressing. I would also kindly remind you that yours is not the only voice here, it only takes a moment to look and see there are other voices present that are calling for AE nerfs. Not every pro-AE or pro-farm post is responding to you personally.

A fair reply! True, you did not say "remove it." So I will give you that. But not all "enabling" is bad either. That is merely your perspective. You don't "know" with certainty that drives people away. You don't "know" that speed-rushing people to 50, has a negative effect on player numbers and more than we "know" it has a positive one. And true, actions and choices have consequences. Just as a new player is free to choose to get power leveled, and go "eh, this game isn't for me." Well, then that's their choice to do so. You can't strongarm people into what your game ideal is, and expect everyone to feel the same. And like it or not, "farmers" are a community here as well. There are a few discords, where we talk about builds, strategies, builds that are good for soloing, or doing nonfarm activities. (I try to lean this way myself, builds that "can" farm, but can also do other activities.) If you drew back the curtain on the farmers, and see the inner workings, you would see an entire sub community all its own, the same as base builders, club owners, storyline rpers, pvpers, so on. One of the discords I am in has over 600 members, and is more active than the official HC community. I can't claim to speak for everyone there, but the general attitude is that if AE was removed, or overly nerfed the majority of them would move onto other games. "Alt looping" as we call it, is an activity all its own. Making an alt, leveling it to 50 as fast as possible, fully gearing it up, and playing it for a time before setting it aside and trying something new has more replay value for some of us than anything else in the game. The thing is, if they overly nerf the "loop," to where you don't break even when bringing up an alt, well, that just made a hidden but popular kind of play invalid. I mean I have 3 accounts with around 20 fully purpled and t4 incarnated characters on each of them. Do you know how much time it took to get that? Over a year (played off and on.) And I hasten to add that I am merely trying to explain things from my side of the fence here. To me its the same side of the coin, and many suggestions I see would do more bad than good, but the people suggesting them might not see it or be aware. They only see things from where they sit - the number of low number tfs being run for example.