Blackfeather

I see! So in the example I put forth, with 8 Controllers attempting to Hold an AV twice, the likelihood of none of them being an AV level hold would go something like: 99^16 divided by 100^16, which results in...85.15%? Which I think results in a 14.85% chance of getting an AV level hold up. Hopefully I didn't mess anything up this time around!

Whoops! You're right about that, my mistake. Though that does mean I can probably safely up the likelihood of inflicting a higher magnitude Overpower without too much of a worry. What do you think of the revised table I put forth?

@Vanden I made a revised Overwhelming Overpower table - what do you think of these odds compared to the initial proposal? Are they too potent? Additional Magnitude Chance per Overpower Chance per Power Usage Floating Text +1 = affect a Boss 50% 10% = 10 in 100 uses Overpower +4 = affect an Elite Boss 30% 6% = 6 in 100 uses Overpower! +54 = affect an Archvillain 15% 3% = 3 in 100 uses Overpower!! +100 = affect a Giant Monster 5% 1% = 1 in 100 uses Overpower!!! In other words, a 1 in 25 chance of affecting an AV with a single use of the Controller's Hold/Stun/etc. (with a 1 in 100 chance of affecting a Giant Monster). EDIT: take a look at the new table from the initial post - Controllers now have a 1 in 20 chance of affecting AVs with a single use of their power.

1 in 100 actually, including the chance for a Mag 100 effect. The idea behind Overwhelming Overpower is to provide a slim chance for a Controller to be able to affect higher ranking enemies, even if they don't have enough powers to stack to the required threshold. Per my post, I wanted to strike the balance between "actually able to affect stronger enemies" and "up 100% of the time for every fight". Given the fact that the Controller already has a chance based mechanism built right into it, it made sense to build on top of that. However, if you do think the numbers as they are a little slim, what do you think might be better odds, without them being...overly overwhelming? 🤣 Alternately, perhaps the logarithmic Overwhelming Overpower idea I put forth might be of interest to you? So there could be a variable sliding scale of Overpower magnitudes, from an additional 1 all the way to 100, the lower magnitudes being more likely than the higher ones, but providing an overall increase in a Controller's ability to lock down beefier targets.

That's an interesting question, and it's only one that I just started to think about recently. If I get any of my arithmetic wrong, please point it out! On a team of, let's say, 8 Controllers, all using their Hold power, they'd have an 8% chance of triggering a Mag 50 hold. In the current system, a single Controller on average does about a 3.2 Magnitude Hold (factoring in the 20% chance of Overpower). Multiplying that by 8, we get a cumulative 25.6 Magnitude Hold - another application of which would be sufficient to Hold an AV. With Overwhelming Overpower, there'd only be a 16% chance of actually triggering an AV level Hold, (bad math! Props to @HelenCarnate for catching it.) there would be 16 separate instances of a 1% chance of actually triggering an AV level Hold - a 14.85% chance of it going off at least once, given two applications by all 8 Controllers, before they'd overwhelm the AV by sheer numbers in the first place, no Overpower!! Hold required. Essentially, I figure that the amount of lockdown brought by multiple Controllers already provides enough power to hold down AVs/GMs without too much of an issue - but one or two Controllers alone can't do the same, and due to the binary nature of how status effects work, it leaves their primary somewhat shafted. So adding in that potential chance of breaking through those protections helps in that regard. Conversely, additional magnitude past those protection limits is in effect 'wasted' - as such, I'm not sure if adding restrictions to this mechanic on teams with multiple Controllers is necessary...but I could be overlooking some potential scenarios!

The Current Situation Controllers are one of my favourite archetypes - capable of changing the course of a battle with a single well aimed power, and aiding their allies while debilitating their foes, it makes for a character that prefers to facilitate victory, rather than getting their hands dirty in the middle of a fight. However, while they can easily disable weaker enemies with their numerous abilities, much of their arsenal is rendered ineffective against stronger foes, which have inherent levels of protection against status effects. That is to say: the raison d'être of a Controller's entire Primary power set (i.e. disabling or otherwise hindering the enemy) becomes an accessory to their other abilities while facing Archvillains and Giant Monsters. No other category of powers invalidates themselves against stronger enemies to this wide of a margin - buffs and debuffs work, as do powers that deal damage. While they function at a diminished rate, they still do something. In comparison, status effects are binary: they either affect the enemy or they don't, and in the case of Archvillains and Giant Monsters...they usually don't. While it is true that it is possible to stack enough status effects to overcome this inherent protection that these stronger foes have, one Controller alone is very unlikely to be able to do this - why else would Archvillains have a cycling period of higher/lower status effect immunity? As it stands, Dominators are the better choice for actually locking down stronger enemies due to their inherent: the doubled strength of their control powers mean that they're much more capable of exceeding the status effect protections that such enemies possess. The Proposed Change Controllers actually have an inherent ability that lets them bypass the protections of some enemies to a degree. This comes in the form of 20% chance of increasing the magnitude of a status effect inflicting power by 1 (denoted by the word Overpower on use). Since most status effects have a magnitude of 3, this lets them occasionally affect Boss ranked enemies in a single hit. However, this does little to nothing for higher ranking enemies, which have much higher levels of protection. This proposal (which I'm calling Overwhelming Overpower) attempts to change this, giving the Overpower mechanic the chance to grant higher levels of magnitude than just 1. As a result, Controllers now have the chance to affect higher ranking enemies with just a single use of a status effect inducing ability. While this makes them less reliable than a Dominator, they can potentially reach far greater heights. As the table below shows, Overpower can now actually, well, overpower enemies, regardless of their rank. Additional Magnitude Chance per Overpower Chance per Power Usage Floating Text +1 = affect a Boss 50% 10% = 10 in 100 uses Overpower +4 = affect an Elite Boss 25% 5% = 5 in 100 uses Overpower! +54 = affect an Archvillain 20% 4% = 4 in 100 uses Overpower!! +100 = affect a Giant Monster 5% 1% = 1 in 100 uses Overpower!!! This was partially inspired by the idea of saving throws in D&D. Naturally, higher level enemies tend to be more resistant to effects, but there was still the chance that a bad roll of the die could leave them affected. As seen in the table above, Archvillains now have a 25% chance of being overwhelmed by a status effect inducing ability, if it is Overpowered. In other words, rolling a natural 1 on a d20 (20% chance of Overpower, then 25% chance of a +54 or higher Magnitude boost). I also added in a section that allowed Elite Bosses to be instantly affected as well, since they have somewhat higher protection levels than Bosses do - it also serves as a way of giving Controllers some additional magnitude to play with against Archvillains/Giant Monsters to some degree, making it a little bit easier to overwhelm them. I figure that these numbers strike a fair balance between making control powers completely godlike and essentially useless - with enough attempts, a Controller can now lock down powerful enemies, even if they can't build enough stacks to brute force their way through an enemy's protection. However, people more versed in numbers than I am, please feel free to correct me, or suggest changes to these chances. Potential Further Ideas Smoother Overpower Magnitude Curve One idea I've been toying with is the idea of having Overpower's magnitude be more variable. Instead of a flat chance for specific magnitudes, perhaps using a logarithmic scale with higher/lower magnitudes might be more potent. My main concern here is that this might be a bit too powerful, depending on exactly how this scale might look. Extremely high values would occur at approximately the same rate as before, but it'd also provide the opportunity for status effect magnitudes to stack a little better (e.g. a chance of having a Mag 40 Hold, followed by a few regular Mag 3 ones, just enough to Hold an AV). This could further boost the Controller's ability to lock down Archvillains and Giant Monsters, even if they don't exactly hit the right threshold the first time around, by stacking additional status effect points to just reach the limit. Were I more versed in maths, I'd draw up a graph of the likelihood of a specific magnitude on an Overpower under this model...but sadly I am not. +Chance to Overpower Another idea that's come to mind is letting the actual chance for the Overpower effect occur more frequently depending on a stacking bonus, similar to how Stalkers can build higher chances for critical hits. Potential ideas for 'stacks' (of let's say 5%) could be: Stacking percentage based on how many status effects on an enemy are applied (even if they aren't affecting them) E.g. Controller attempts to Hold + Sleep + Confuse an AV, chance to Overpower is now 20% + (5% + 5% + 5%) = 35% chance Stacking percentage based on how many recent control powers have been used (time pending) Stacking percentage based on previous controls that weren't an Overpower (increase chance if it hasn't happened lately) E.g. Controller's previous two controls were regular ones, chance to Overpower is now 20% + (5% + 5%) = 30% chance Increased chance based on amount of magnitude left until it exceeds protection (Current Magnitude Inflicted / Enemy Magnitude Protection) * 100 = additional chance to Overpower E.g. Controller Holds AV for Mag 3, resulting in a 26% chance to Overpower (3 / 50) * 100 = 6% additional chance Overpowering Overkill Two points that have been brought up a few times in this thread: Controllers are a little bit slow at actually clearing out enemies in regular play Overwhelming Overpower does little against weaker enemies (Lieutenants and below) As such, this additional proposal aims to address these two points in the following manner: An Overpower or above will instantly defeat Underling ranked enemies and below 20% chance for instant defeat on power use An Overpower! or above will instantly defeat Minion ranked enemies and below 10% chance for instant defeat on power use An Overpower!! or above will instantly defeat Lieutenant/Sniper ranked enemies and below 5% chance for instant defeat on power use An Overpower!!! will instantly defeat Boss ranked enemies and below 1% chance for instant defeat on power use This is flavoured as the Controller's higher magnitude powers fully overwhelming weaker enemies, and thus leading to their subsequent defeat. As such, the proposal might work well together with the previous suggestion of dynamically increasing the chance of an Overpower occurring. Conclusion With this proposal, Controllers should now be able to better lock down higher ranking enemies, rather than rely on their secondary abilities to help a team when facing them. Rather than building stacks of status effect points that will likely do little, or needing other team members to help them, a Controller can now know that their attempts in locking down that AV all have the chance to become something greater: an Overwhelming Overpower! Feedback as always is welcome - is this something that you might like to see? Any changes that you'd like to this proposal? Looking forward to any responses that come my way! History Initially, here was what the likelihood of Overwhelming Overpower looked like - after some discussion, I figured that it was a bit too low:

I mean, technically, the XP Boosters are letting you breeze through levels by 'paying' in influence/infamy that you'd have earned, that you're instead putting to experience points. 😉

Currently, the power Fissure (both in Controller and Dominator flavour) requires you to be on the ground to activate it. The old i25 patch notes changed the way a number of powers worked (Foot Stomp, Atom Smasher, Burn, Tremor, Ice Patch). Before these changes, they needed to be activated while you were on the ground. Now, they can also be used while flying, so long as you're close to the ground - a nice quality of life adjustment. Given that there is precedence for similar powers being adjusted in this way, it would be nice if Fissure could also be used while flying, instead of requiring you to be on the ground.

Just going to leave this creation of mine here.

I do like these quotes from @Sakura Tenshi about the Incarnate system.

How bad was the crash like on ranged T9 powers anyhow, out of curiosity? I wouldn't mind it being a thing myself, especially with the sustains that Blasters get, say.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Freaklympics_gold_medal That makes sense to me.

Hmm...I think I'll try summoning @The Philotic Knight to weigh in on this. 🙂

Certainly that's true, but Peregrine Island is a level 41-50 zone anyhow (compared to the 40-50 level gate of the TF), so the only scenario where hunting Fake Nemesis in PI is more efficient than the task force is if you're on a Freedom Phalanx Reserve badge hunting team sidekicked up with a higher level character leading.

Episode 5 of Pandora's Box has a lot of Fake Nemesis in them - much more efficient than hunting them down in Peregrine Island. Just go x8/-1 and you're golden, especially on a team.

...whoops, I might have missed this, let me address this real quick. It's a potent idea that definitely helps the fragility of sleeps on teams/AoE heavy builds - I could see this working nicely for Plant Control's Spore Burst for example, it'd be quite thematic. That being said, I do prefer the idea of the Dizzied! mechanic when it comes to Mind Control. I've a few reasons for that: I was heavily inspired by Gravity Control's changes, using it as an example of the extent to which changes to a powerset might be made The Dizzied! mechanic is basically an analogue to Gravity's Impact! mechanic that instead grants additional control instead of damage under some circumstances I wanted a mechanic that worked similarly to Impact! - encouraging the use of powers in a certain combination to trigger an additional effect I didn't want to make Mass Hypnosis and Mesmerize always act as a means of stunning an opponent - only under specific circumstances (that is, when followed up with Levitate or Terrify) A lot of the changes I made were designed around maintaining the each power's "intention", with any improvements made stopping short of changing their main use case - when possible, use Mass Hypnosis and Mesmerize to sleep enemies, but if that's not possible, another avenue opens up As a kind of trade off for this, I made the disorient from this mechanic extendable; enhance the sleep duration, enhance the Dizzied! mechanic This also provides Mind Control with a more persistent way to keep up Containment (outside of adding an Immobilise to Telekinesis) than if it could not be extended

Mmhm - preventing additional aggro sounds like a good place to start. Sounds like a change that ought to be done for any other damaging Sleep/Fear effects. Along with @Zeraphia's suggestion post of making such effects less prone to breaking due to Interface DoT procs and so on...though again, less of a Mind Control thing, and more of a general thing of course.

That sounds pretty good! Though I think you mentioned somewhere that Hold/Stuns detoggle things on enemies, which Fear doesn't currently do, I believe? Maybe a Confuse like you mentioned before could work for that instead.

Though...it does make me wonder if Sleeps/Fears ought to be changed in some way in general then to be a bit more durable: maybe small amounts of damage such as Interface's DoT wouldn't be enough to set them off? It'd make the status effect play a little nicer with rain powers as well. Of course, that doesn't help this whole situation of damaging Sleep/Fear powers causing aggro due to how they're made behind the scenes, at least not directly...

That's a shame...I imagine the same probably applies for Terrorize as well, in that the extra damage might end up causing additional enemy aggro. Outside of what's currently happening of course.

That's some relief at least! Though I've heard some of the Incarnate DoT interface powers interact badly with these powers as well, which is a bit of a shame. And come to think of it, when do these procs occur on, say, non-damaging Fear powers such as Fearsome Stare?

That'd definitely be quite nice - it sounds like damaging Sleeps/Fears are at a bit of a disadvantage to Holds in comparison due to their more fragile nature. I'm guessing that when damage is applied simultaneously on such powers, it'd break the Sleep, and cause enemies to retaliate when Feared anyway. Come to think of it, I wonder how these powers currently interact with procs - along with non-damaging Fear powers with Glimpse of the Abyss' damage proc...

I see! Out of curiosity, how do the regular Hold powers such as Dominate work in comparison - are they queued differently?

What I'm saying is that I don't understand why Sleep/Fear powers that deal damage should trigger enemies to attack in the first place when other powers of a similar nature don't - it sounds kind of unfair, you know? I'm not sure whether or not Ice Control's Flash Freeze is similar in nature to Mesmerize in that way, but if it is, it definitely should be looked at similarly.

Interesting! That does sound very odd for sure - after all, a lot of Hold powers deal damage as well, but don't result in enemies retaliating. Why would powers causing Sleeps or Fears be any different in this case? After all, so long as the enemy isn't damaged after the effect is applied, they shouldn't be able to respond.