Galaxy Brain

@Leogunner That would be cool too! We have precedent with Sentinels that target caps can be messed with per AT / power, I'm not sure if it can be adjusted on the fly tho so maybe just a flat range/cap boost would be good. I also think like, maybe 1-2 Grant Cover style powers (that also have big range) would be really fun.

Just saying, but I dont think "it works with shield" is a great arguement even with the synergy (thematically and mechanically) as then all the other secondary pairings are up for debate

This is not true; the CoH Devs designed the Brute to fill the Tank/Scrapper rolls on Redside. Also before CoV came out; hells, pretty much right after CoH came out, the players found that they did not need a Tank. The CoH Devs had broken the Trinity, and most of us players were happy with that. This is CoH not some other MMO, and you Tank proponents need to quit arguing for the Trinity role that a Tank fills within a Trinity, because the Trinity is not going to happen in CoH. What I'm gathering from this thread is you all are trying to make the Tank into some type of Support/Melee. The problem I see is that you are trying to keep your heavy armor at the same time getting Support abilities through your inherent. I don't see that happening, but I could support the Tank being turned into a true Support/Melee. and then having a true roll in the group... Buffs/Debuffs & Heals on the front line. Otherwise the Tank is going to have the same issue it had when it stepped out of the CoH box. While there is no true trinity in CoH, the way Tankers are currently built gives them the base playstyle of "the tank". They can soak up damage for a team and have enemies aggroed to them and focus on them as a singular point. The rest of the team then uses the tank as that focal point for their abilities. Other ATs can do this too! Most notably brutes, but Tankers have the built in aggro tools to more easily get this job done. They have AoE taunt in both their actual taunt power and via gauntlet to make grabbing and holding aggro more efficient. The issue is that a Brute can also grab aggro efficiently and survive that aggro well enough to fill this role on a team, and so can Scrappers or even reportedley Stalkers if they invest into it hard enough, while also providing substantially more damage to the team. So the issue here is that Brutes, and to a lesser extent Scrappers, can potentially provide a similar role and playstyle of a Tanker in the current game environment when it comes to grabbing aggro from the team while also layering on much more damage comparative to how much tougher a tank is, if that makes sense. Melee characters are expected to be relatively self sufficient already, and on a team survival is boosted from buffs / heals to help with that which closes the gap between tanks and brutes/scrappers on top of how the latter can still at least decently hold aggro... but the damage gap is still there and it cant be closed by the tanker in the same way that survival and even aggro can. Increasing the tanker damage cap would help a little, but at the end of the day it doesnt make them stand out gameplay wise. They'd just be a tougher but slower brute, but only when they get boosted by the team for damage. They should instead stand out from being a 4th melee dps class and instead focus more on being a melee support class. Support is a broad term here in that they already support by taking hits for the team and providing a focal point... so I guess more "melee controll". Something tossed around often is the idea of a hybrid melee support where they have armors with PBAoE buffs for the team, why not lean into that for Tankers to make them really stand out? A brute could do more damage, but can they hold aggro while debuffing enemy resistance with bruising + boost the team's recharge rate and accuracy? Or their regen? Etc, etc. In essence, if a brute is a warrior the tanker could be shifted more towards a paladin kind of role while still having the same playstyle as before. :)

Nobody has responded to this yet, but I want to quote this since it seems to be a fantastic idea. Tankers differ from Brutes thematically as their role is supposed to be the focal point of a team. Making their defensive powers also come with team-wide, or at least team mates in range, benefits would not only make multiple tankers neat, but be a big difference over brutes without making them play any differently.

It sounds like incarnate abilities are the issue here, which is a seperate conversation.

Only if we can all get that! Redraw is already optional in the customization for costumes, making the weapons optional (even for non weapon attacks!) would be superb

Incarnate is an X factor and does not play into the lifetime of a set. Same with inspirations.

+1 If not mechanical changes, adding way more variety on how to "customize" knockback would be great!

I really like the earlier idea that got brought up where rage just gave you -res/def while it was active, and cost endurance when it crashed. That is essentially what Bio's offensive mode is all about sans the endurance cost, but I think that would probably be more in line thematically and mechanically fun to toy with.

This is a great, thematic take! You fling somebody through a wall, and they usually dont get right back up do they? I also agree with Solarverse that there needs to be education on Knockback. However, I still beleive that it still does not match up to other control types for reasons listed earlier in this thread, and something like having it give a disorienting effect could do something nice.

I have a thread that also covers the KB topic, here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,6379.0.html Im gonna mirror Sunsette in that a big issue is that it is inconsistent, but moreso KB as it stands is just not good when compared to KD and KU. The thread goes into more detail, but Im in the camp that KB is fun and super-heroic to do, its just a shame its not as good. So, why not make it actually good to make it worth mastering?

Can stay apply a mag 19751516737262 immobilize on them?

Not when you hit a wall, for when you simply proc knockback. The balance part is kinda tricky... but it seems to be universally agreed upon that Knockback, as directly compared to Knockdown/Knockup, is in a bad place and would need something to stand out from the competition. It would also always carry the displacement factor that makes it challenging, so it has to account for that as well.

Memes aside, I just rolled one of these up and it seems like it should be a very strong combo! The endurance management of EA along with the +Rech should allow claws to shred constantly, and there are variety of set types you can play with in both sets for IOs. Does anyone else have exp with this combo?

I've had a lot of trouble pinning down what you want; it seems like you're now asking for KB to have a mitigation component other than its >=2s hard lock-out. KB (as of June 5) always at least does KD to an immobilized target. If you're saying you think -movespeed and/or -rech are more useful than KB... well, certainly I think so on behalf of my water/ corr or most of my melee, but not because of the mitigation aspect. A slow that expires before the hold doesn't do anything unless it's reapplied; similarly, the >= 2s hard lockout needs to be reapplied to have an effect. KB's very benefit -- that it forces enemies to reposition -- is also what makes it frustrating. I tend to agree with the general feeling that the best solution is just to replace KB with KD/KU in as many cases as possible. I hear you, maybe portraying my points as points can be more effective. Problems with Knockback include: Needing to reposition yourself and the target ---This can be frustrating for not only yourself depending on the map, but for other players if the user is not careful with their knockback The control effect (forced animation) being done by KD/KU without the positioning drawback In cases where a target suddenly cannot take knockback (outside of Immobs that turn it into KD) it suddenly has no secondary effect unlike lingering debuffs / damage procs ---These last points in particular are frustrating as even while leveraging knockback correctly, other effects can be objectively better and easier to master Possible perks Knockback could have: The forced animation could scale off of magnitude, so stronger Knockback will always control a target longer than Knockdown even if they are pushed a shorter distance due to geometry Knockback could have a damage component associated, thematically similar to powers such as Lift where the target takes damage if they get flung ---This bonus damage could be initiated when the KB procs, or after a small delay to mirror the target hitting something ---The main intent is that while KB will require you to reposition, it is offensively beneficial to soften the stigma/disadvantage of repositioning If a target suddenly cannot be knocked back, perhaps that's where the damage comes into play much like Gravity's Impact mechanic In short, KD/KU is flat out better than knockback no matter which way you slice it. What I would like to see is make Knockback more powerful in the sense that it has stronger offensive and defensive edges over those two in some manner that make it more tolerable or at least "worth" learning how to use over them rather than just replacing knockback with KD/KU everywhere. If KB had benefits over them, then it would be a decision with that IO around whether you want to get rid of the positioning struggle but lose the edges, or vice versa.

The bonus damage as you describe is probably a no-go. It would probably be a no-go even if there were a simple way of doing collisions, but it's more interesting/understandable in that case. KB powers already act in some sense as you describe. The target of a KB is unable to use powers during the entire flight time/ragdoll period. But in general, 'mastery' of KB usually means minimizing flight time either by first rooting the enemies (which provides KB protection) or vectoring them into the floor or a corner. Correct. Mastering Knockback means actively mitigating it by flinging people into the geometry (which can be good with ragdoll nonsense, but that is almost RNG) which is again, done better by KD or KU. Holds and Immobilizes can turn KB into KD, or even negate it all together which further digs into knockback as a side effect. Most other powers have a useful side effect at all times such as Slow. If an opponent is held or immobilized, the slow still applies for if/when they break free. Knockback has no such effect unless it is very baked in with Grav/'s impact.

Okay. If I'm understanding this, you want each KB power in the game to be re-written so it does half (or w/e) as much damage as now up-front, and another half after 2s, and to ignore damage enhancements for the second half but use KB enhancements to buff the damage instead. This is neither a buff nor likely to happen. I never said the base damage is split, Knockback would be additional damage. So if a power currently does 100 damage, and has a chance to knockback it would then do 100 damage + Knockback damage when/if the KB occurs. How this bonus damage is calculated is up in the air but I just threw something on the board, heck it could even just be Magnitude x Character level to make it simpler. As it stands, Knockback even when used "correctly" is usually inferior to the majority of other control/soft control due to the extra time it takes to reposition as well as the chance that KB will actually take a target away from other beneficial powers. It has direct comparisons to KD and KU which both have the same soft control effect while not having the negative of needing to carefully position yourself and the targets. We have already seen how powerful KD is with the new IO radically changing powers. KU powers often have a strong initial hit (KO Blow) or are defined by thematically using the movement of the enemy to deal damage (Lift/Levitate). That same theme you would think would carry over to Knockback as usually launching somebody across the room would be due to a massive strike, or at the least the targets would take a beating once they reach their destination. Powers that have a chance to knock could be seen as having a chance for a "Stronger" hit in this regard, and powers that always knockback would see a big benefit that would mitigate the negative aspects of misuse by at least dealing damage. What I had posted above tried to make powers that had a chance stronger than those that had a guarantee, but that is up in the air. The core idea is that KB should have more oomph to it to justify it's quirks over other power effects. If the bonus damage or the like is a no go, at the least the animation for getting up after knockback should have more weight depending on the mag. Knocking somebody off their feet = 2 sec to get up, while hurling them across a room has the same recovery time (discounting the launch time)? Making the mag have a stronger soft control aspect could help a lot with making KB more palatable while learning how to control it, and then allow for mastery to be even more rewarding.

Those powers just split their damage between two hits, like Barrage does. They don't do 'extra' damage. Right, but thats the same kind of concept I think would be fun for Knockback: Hit (Take primary damage) > get flung > Hit floor/wall (take KB damage). Obviously this would not matter when you hit the floor/wall, but be after a ~2sec delay.

It's a shame ots not as straightforward as other effects, but that's the nature of the game :/ As for encouraging knockback, the intent behind the change is to make it more forgiving or actually *encouraged* where a powerful blast could just delete enemies more effectively rather than slow the team down, or better keep enemies prone for longer for safety. Either way, the issue is in one part that it's hard to master and in another part that the negatives do not outweigh the benefits when compared to other (soft) control effects

I’m a +1 to this idea, but not your physics, force is equal to mass*acceleration, and distance is typically a factor there. I'm bad at typing today haha. What I mean is like, if you get hit by force X that is strong enough to launch you 50 ft, when you hit the ground at 50ft *or* hit a wall at 5ft you will still be in for a whallop!

I didn't mention geometry damage, rather that knockback just does damage based on the chance / mag when it happens :) Making it based on fall damage or geometry would be too complex, which is why I would rather it be like Lift or Levitate where there is some sort of proc that occurs when you do knock. The force that launches you 50 ft would probably hurt the same if you landed 50ft or 5ft away, no?

Knockback in the superhero genre, or heck any action style media, is always incredibly impactful. When a guy gets launched, it is usually the end of a fight if not a devastating blow that takes a lot of time to recover from. In CoH, it is like a minor inconvenience where the enemy can get back up in short order without much repercussion. Sure, knocking them into the geometry can cause hilarious rag doll physics where they are stuck for a while, but in general you knock somebody back, and they pick themselves up after a ~2 sec animation and are back to square one. This is why Knockdown is generally seen as superior, as the animation of them falling + getting up is still there for soft control, but then they are not out of range of XYZ effects either (same with Knock Up for much the same reason). So, to give Knockback some superheroic oomph, how about we take a page from Knock-Up powers such as Levitate and Lift? These powers apply a bonus damage proc when the victim hits the ground. Something similar can be applied to other knockback powers: DMG = ((Mag - 1)x(Damage/10)) x (2 - % Chance to Knock) Something like this could offer bonus damage to player's KB powers based on the damage and KB potential of the attack. Broken down, this looks at the magnitude of the knockback compared to a fraction of the base damage of the power. The bigger the mag, the more base KB damage it will deal. On top of this, it then gets multiplied by the chance to happen, with a higher chance giving less of a bonus. 100 damage, 1.5 mag, 100% chance = 5 damage dealt (5% boost) 100 damage, 3 mag, 50% chance = 30 damage (30% boost) 100 damage, 0.67 mag, 25% chance = -6 damage (0%, the formula has anything under 1 mag not give a bonus as it becomes knockdown) This would actually make slotting for Knockback give a higher mag, and thus a higher potential damage boost as you launch enemies across the room and either smack into the floor or other objects with some force behind them. The numbers can always be messed with, but the idea here is to have some interaction where the Magnitude and Chance of KB have an inverse relationship to make guaranteed KB not as powerful as chance of KB. Similarly, the animation time for an enemy to get back up could have a similar relationship where the magnitude determines the animation time. Something as simple as multiplying the animation time by the mag in some form would work as higher mag = longer time on the ground. KB is a very potent tool in the right hands, but it can be frustrating when you are new to the game both with yourself and others. I have also spoken with many players brand new to the game, and often they were confused that Kb didn't have some bonus effect when you slammed somebody into a wall or off a height inside a mission! Adding something beneficial to Knockback over it's counterparts would add another layer of fun to such powers as well as help it stand out as a cool thing to do in a team setting even if you are not quite a KB-Master yet! Thoughts?

I guess the best bet would be to lock into a specific contact, or a way to select the mission -> set arc?

You can use blasts in melee range tho. I recall my elec^3 on live would just wail on somebody with the blasts and melee attacks in close range. There isnt a penalty to using a blast at melee range, so it's just treated as part of the chain with them.

Side note, I dont get why "blapping" is a defined side-thing for blasters. 90% of secondaries have very strong melee attacks that are just part of the kit, so wouldnt it just be part of being a blaster?