Riverdusk

I mean I guess I'd be okay with it if they want to give all controllers some minor -regen in one or more of their controls to counteract it (since not all secondaries have -regen or have it up often enough). Roots for example would probably be good spot for it in plant, something similar in other sets. Hard to say what to even suggest though as the devs have still given zero indication as the reason behind the change. I'm assuming the point behind the change wasn't to make an AT that is already on the slower side for defeating mobs even slower, but we can't know unless they say something. They also still have not created a focused feeback thread on the issue despite many requests, so it appears they don't care for any feedback from us on it. It has been very strange/disappointing the complete lack of communication on this change.

?? The recharge on live is 240. At worst it will take just as long as it does on live. Only potential downside as others have noted is procs being much less likely to fire off.

I tested the new mob health regen rates and posted about it. Specifically though I was testing the difference between just spamming entangle (a low damage VERY slow dot) on a live boss and a beta test boss. It basically made entangle worthless as a damage power, (not that it was great before), at least at the boss level. Again I suggested that controller single target immobilizes should have their damage sped up and not take 9 seconds to actually do their already pitiful damage. Would swear even a while ago there was a dev feedback thread asking players how controller immobilizes could be improved and have more people take them. Speeding up the damage was probably the #1 suggestion. Can't find it now though so maybe I was imagining it. If it did happen, obviously devs didn't remember it either. Edit: Didn't help that there was no focused feedback thread for the health regen change. People had to bring it up in various other threads randomly.

For a controller I know nemesis aren't so easy. Seeds may as well not exist with Nem's confuse protection. Doms can easily overcome it with domination up though. From a controller point of view my biggest wish at this point actually is to just improve entangle. I dislike having to pick up arcane bolt every time just to have a decent single target damage attack option (and often that isn't really enough). Once again I know for a dom's point of view it is unimportant as they have many other single target damage possibilities.

To me that is a good thing, assuming you can keep it alive of course. Its best attack is actually its melee attack.

I have quite a few plant combos, but for that reason if I do ever go back to plant controller it'd probably be my plant/rad. Rad is a good secondary, but also one that has a lot of skippable powers, probably more than any other secondary (just need 6 from it really). So, it has room to be more flexible in power choices. Biggest downside of it (and most plant combos) was always single target damage is terrible, and that is still an issue. /rad unfortunately doesn't have any extra procable single target attacks like an extra single target hold or anything. Would still love to see entangle's damage sped up, along with other control set's similar ST immobilize powers. I still think it is ridiculous having to wait 9 seconds for it to actually do its damage. Edit: Plant/storm probably still a good one too, also lot of skippables and brings the extra damage.

Or maybe we could think of ways to make mind control's power better. But no, instead we should look to nerf controllers wherever we can. Afterall, they are the meta that is taking over the game and every high level group out there is clamoring to team with them. Oh wait....

It isn't terrible, but in its current form, I'd swap seeds out for stalagmites in a heartbeat if I could. Big AoE instead of a cone, longer range, 16 target cap. Yes please. Probably the biggest downside is just that the Stun enhancement sets aren't as good as the confuse ones, but that isn't the power's fault. I mean, a tohit debuff proc on a stun set? What were they thinking? Then another one has a knockback proc, not only terrible, but often actually detrimental. Stun has the worst procs ever.

Taking Leadership: Tactics or break frees I think are the only ways I know of if it isn't in your armor. Always thought it'd be nice if they'd add confuse protect to the Epic pool Focused Accuracy powers too.

Me too, virtually free slow resistance, endurance drain resistance, extra recharge, extra endurance recovery. Store the salvage for the ones you like in your base and pop in there once every 90 minutes. Great stuff.

That's a good question and from what I understand the downside to the change. That purple confuse set is so good I'd always fill it with that eventually. The coercive persuasion proc I'd assume would be down to the 10% min chance or close to it. Not going to stop slotting it though as the set bonuses are too good. Guess that 10 target cap really will be a hard 10 target cap, maybe 11 or 12 if you get really lucky? And tougher for controllers to affect bosses end game with it unlikely to proc on them to stack mag.

Maybe they could give the persistent one to controllers and the adaptive one to doms. I wouldn't mind that. Illusion shows sets can do different things depending on whether it is a controller or dom.

Interesting they decided to go with adaptive recharge on it. Wouldn't have been my first choice, but I like it. Good to hear creepers is acting better again. Thanks for the testing @LastHumanSoldier, sounds promising.

Something like this I wish there was a half xp START option. Maybe wouldn't have to fiddle with turning off xp as much, or maybe not at all if you just wanted to do a "most" run instead of absolutely 100%. Low priority of course and only if it was a very easy addition. Been thinking of trying a more casual 'most' run with a necro MM, which seems like a good one for something like this. Then Ouro anything I miss.

One of those changes I'd also love to hear the "Why" behind it. I seriously doubt my stalkers, scrappers, masterminds, blasters are even going to notice. My controllers on the other hand I think will definitely feel it and it'll make their already low and slow damage feel even worse. It only affects the 'poor'. Doesn't help there isn't even a focused feedback thread about it to discuss it either. I'm trying not to read anything into that...

I know you are probably just trying to be facetious, but to me the aoe immobilizes are a perfect example of how I think all the other sets should be brought UP to plant's level. Plant's AoE immobilize doing the damage it does is hardly game breaking. Other controllers versions are just pitiful damage wise. And again I keep bringing up the cranked up health regen of mobs in this patch that imo isn't getting enough attention. Mobs are having their health regen at least doubled, the damage the aoe immobilizes do (which occurs very slowly) needs a boost just to keep up with it and not fall behind.

Don't forget nemesis. Always the....nemesis....of my plant controllers. Doms could overcome their confuse protection with dom up, but controller seeds were always pretty much worthless against them.

If devs are still open to suggestions as well and you're serious about making "underperforming" powers better, I have to say I'd still definitely like to see the single target immobilize powers (in the sets that get them) have their damage sped up or even made instant. Especially with the mob health regen rates being cranked up, having a power that takes 9 seconds for it to slowly tic a small amount of damage is now pretty much worthless. Yes, sometimes I do take the ST immobilize powers (usually if sorcery pool arcane bolt didn't fit the concept, a power that is definitely better). I tested on the beta server spamming entangle against a -3 boss and it basically did no noticeable damage to it. Yes, a boss 3 levels lower than me (40 vs 37). Also tested on live server against a -3 boss and honestly it didn't do much better, but at least it seemed to slowly, very slowly, whittle it down.

It is a nice change, but very much a baby step. My electric sentinel can also neuter paragon protectors and actually has an easier time doing it, even up to 10 of them at once pretty easily. No endurance = no mog. Almost every AT and probably the majority of powersets have control of some sort in them. As long as other AT's have control powers, controllers should get damage. No one is saying they should be super blasters. That's an obvious straw man. Edit: @macskull beat me to it on that point and made it better. Anyway, the whole 'plant only depends on 2 powers' was always an obvious exaggeration. The set had two 'set defining' powers maybe, but pretty much all control sets have that, not sure why plant gets singled out. For earth control for example I'd say it is earthquake and stalagmites. For illusion it is phantom army and spectral terror. For gravity it is wormhole and probably singularity (it is the coolest and most unique pet), for fire it'd be hot feet and flashfire, etc. For plant I always took at least 5 plant powers, typically I'd end up with 6 or 7 depending on secondary choice. The only power that used to 100% be a skip every time was spore burst (sleep). I always thought, why would I bother when creepers would just wake things up instantly even solo. Yes, it is nice to see that one finally get a buff. Just a shame they had to overnerf the set for it.

Agreed in general. For gremlins though you can look at the detailed power info (green upside down ! in upper right) in the character creation screen to see the details. Often you then just need to scroll down on the power info so that you can then click on the + sign to see the actual data. For some reason it won't let you click on some info unless you scroll down first.

I was talking about it as an opening control power. It is obviously underpowered for control compared to Flashfire or Stalagmites now. Same recharge, duration almost the same (its a cone so that alone gives it a bonus duration under basic formulas I believe), and now a MUCH lower target cap (10 to 16). Flashfire and Stalagmites are also easier to use being that they are targeted AoE instead of a cone and have a better range. I also don't see it really adding much to xp gain rates. Most of the time confused mobs miss each other. Only time that becomes somewhat effective is if you have a -defense debuff and also don't use any tohit debuffs or any other controls on the mob.

FYI, another thing that might seem to be causing the feeling that things are taking longer to defeat that is kind of buried in the patch notes: All critters now regenerate health 5% of their health every 12 seconds (does not include GMs or AVs) That is basically a doubling of Lt's and bosses regen rates (current is 5% every 23 seconds) and more than a tripling of minions current health regen rates (currently 5% every 42 seconds). AV's currently regen 5% every 15 seconds, so regular mobs are now health regenning at a faster rate % wise than AV's. Assuming I'm not misunderstanding something. Seems an indirect nerf on AT's like controllers that tend to take longer to kill things.

I didn't see any place to discuss this one as a focused feedback, and no link was provided and this one definitely caught my eye (bolded part): Critters Only: All -regen debufs (not flagged to be irresistible) should now be resisted by magnitude, not duration Reduced the magnitude of many (not all) low recharge -regen debuffs with magnitudes greater than -100% All critters now regenerate health 5% of their health every 12 seconds (does not include GMs or AVs) According to the wiki the current health regen rates are: Minion 5% every 42 seconds Lieutenant 5% every 23 seconds Boss 5% every 23 seconds Elite Boss 5% every 23 seconds Arch Villain 5% every 15 seconds Hero 5% every 15 seconds Giant Monster 5% every 10 seconds So, every critter out there will now have basically better than AV % rates of health regen? Or am I reading that wrong? High damage AT's probably won't even notice, but something like a controller or defender that tend to kill things slowly? I'll have to test to see especially if the single target immobilizes that controllers get that take 9 seconds to even get their full damage off even make a dent anymore, especially on a boss. What's the purpose here? Seems like all it will do is make lower damage AT's even harder to solo.

Seeds being nerfed a bit wouldn't be too big a deal. Hammering it by nerfing it in 3 different ways all at once (duration, target caps, and recharge) is just a ridiculous swinging of the pendulum too far the other way. Things like stalagmites and flash fire are now much better powers. It okay if we reduce their target caps to 10 and just say, "use your other powers to make up the difference?" We need to balance afterall. Some nerfing of creepers abusing procs too much was also fine. Again it just seems they went too far. Bump up its base damage some to help compensate? I can't confirm whether or not there are actually less vines being generated by creepers that some are reporting. I only had a chance to test for a limited time and didn't notice a huge change there. It'd be nice to see that confirmed one way or another. If that is happening, hopefully that isn't working as intended as there is no mention of it in the patch notes. Anyway, just of the opinion that controllers as an AT could use some buffing, which this patch did...a little....overall to several of the powersets. But the biggest power shift hit plant, which was a big nerf instead. That is sad to see. At least they didn't negatively touch my other favorite control set, illusion.....yet. It also is a pretty good damaging set, for a controller, so I do have to worry a bit. I definitely like that terrify procs containment in this patch. So yes I'm probably retiring my plants (was in the middle of leveling up a plant/TA one among many when this hit), and going back to illusion for now. Just have to hope illusion doesn't get the evil eye next.

I'd put a hold on anything plant right now for something like this until the upcoming changes shake out. Rest of the suggestions should still be good as they weren't clobbered by the nerf hammer like plant was (for now, hopefully they'll ease off a bit).