Coyote

Hm. It seems to me that the damage scalar for Dominators is pretty solid considering that it's their secondary. They are a Control first, Damage second AT and therefore should be clearly inferior in damage to an AT that is Damage first, Damage second. How useful Control is in the end game, could be an interesting discussion. There were some good ideas for making it more useful. One idea would be to have a minor -Def/-Res on mobs that can't defend themselves, which would in effect be comparable to a small bump in Dominator damage (but more useful on teams, where the greater AoE of Blasters pushes them ahead in utility). But it's a problem with the usefulness of Control, and we shouldn't use that to balance an AT so that its secondary is treated like a primary.

This thread never really left that station, just circled around a few times

That's because everyone secretly wants to be nerfed every issue 😆

Assault Bot. He basically carries the set on offense.

Dark Miasma, and other anchor-debuff sets, plays surprisingly much in melee. The reason is that your main defense is Darkest Night, and you put it on a target... and it debuffs everyone around the target. So, now you have everyone aggroed on you, and the Demons will go in and make some attacks, and pull some aggro. So now, some mobs are aggroed on you, and some on the Demons. If you stay at range, you may need to back up, which separates those who are aggroed on the Demons (who may not always charge into melee, but are quite happy to end up in it if mobs approach). So now with the pack split up, some of them get out of the toggle debuff. So, with anchor debuff sets (Rad, Dark, Plant), if you stay close to the mobs, and use a Slow power (which Rad and Dark have) to slow their movement, you often want to stay at kind of the edge of a ball of mobs, so that whichever of them is the anchor, the rest of them are still within the debuff's radius. That puts you in closer range to use Lash and Crack Whip. Also look at how strong Fearsome Stare and Darkest Night are. With those two putting out 20% debuffs each, it's probably better to work on having multiple defenses in the 20s backed up by a Resist shield, than to try hard to cap one particular range band. Even with the debuffs weakened against higher level targets, you should be able to manage 30% debuffing from them. Lastly, while it's not a great deal since it has a smaller radius, remember that Twilight Grasp is an AoE heal and if your Demons go into melee... you'll have to go in there anyhow to heal them.

This is what I'm running... but it has Spirit Tree 😝

Level 2: Lash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Mk'Bit-Dam%(7), Hct-Dam%(9), TchofDth-Dam%(9), ExpStr-Dam%(11), FrcFdb-Rechg%(11) Level 8: Corruption -- Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg(21), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Apc-Dam%(23), GldJvl-Dam%(25) Level 14: Crack Whip -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), PstBls-Dam%(33), ExpStr-Dam%(33), JvlVll-Dam%(34), Empty(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34) Level 20: Time Stop -- Lck-Acc/Hold(A), NrnSht-Dam%(39), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(39), GldNet-Dam%(39), Lck-%Hold(40) The Chance for Fire Damage from Bombardment breaks the calculations in Mids, but it goes in the Empty slot in Crack Whip. For a /Dark, you would add a 6th slot into Petrifying Gaze, and put the purple damage proc in there. I'm putting it in Temporal Distortion instead.

I use the single-target Hold from Time as a damage power, with 3 damage procs. After 2 whip attacks with their -Res, it hits for solid damage. It's not worth using it on normal targets, but what I do is target the Demon Prince at a Boss (the DP uses a Hold with Mag 3), and then hit the boss with Time's Hold to hold the boss. It's useful for taking out nasty bosses (hello, Succubus, goodbye my dear) before they can mess your day.

I agree that these are some of the best attacks for MMs, and by using procs you bypass the low base damage for MMs. Getting Force Feedback in two powers is also good, especially on Crack Whip which will hit enough target to activate it regularly. Adding -Res to the rest of the damage is also nice. Overall, I try to get all 3 in with good procs, but I'd try for at least 2 in any build. Endurance usage goes up noticeably when whipping everything... but so does kill speed, so it seems worth it to me.

Gonna steal this line on a post or two 😛

My first option for all Controllers is Ice Mastery. Frost Breath can get damage procs to get it up to 400 damage and it's up every fight (twice most fights), which means that an AT that normally struggles to help with AoE damage (or to clear spawns if soloing) goes from very little AoE damage to pretty decent AoE damage. This is true for almost all Controller combinations, though Plant does do pretty well with spawn clearing, and Fire isn't bad. And Ice Storm is in the same pool, and it's up every other fight for another 400 damage. Another excellent option is Stone Mastery. It adds decent AoE damage with Fissure, which is up several times a fight, since you put Force Feedback in it, and if fighting large spawns will trigger very often. And it helps with recharge on other powers, also. And Seismic Smash is juicy single-target damage, though more useful on sets that are going to be in melee range normally. For example, I have an Earth/Cold Controller. If I go with Ice, she becomes an AoE beast for Controllers with 300 damage from procced up Stalagmites, 130 from Wall of Force (used mostly to trigger Force Feedback), then 400 from Frost Breath. So I get a Force Feedback activation and 800 AoE damage, clearing minions and most LTs. But Stone is a big pull also, since it helps get Stalagmites out faster and also Volcanic Gases plus the Cold debuffs. So it's a tight call between more Recharge effect but lower damage from Fissure, or less Recharge but way more damage. I think I'll start with Ice and see if Stalagmites is up as an opener for spawns without problem. If it feels that it needs more Recharge, I can go with Stone. Those are my two basic APP choices, but there are others that I may go with for thematic reasons, or going with Psy and the Sorcery pool to alternate Rune of Protection and Indomitable Will for mez protection if it's an aura-based character who will be in melee. But with /Time, I think that Power-Boosted Farsight is a very good reason to go with Primal. Both Stone and Ice do bring in a Defense shield that will easily cap S/L with Farsight... but I'm not sure that's as good as getting a Resist shield that will stack behind Defense, and you can cap Ranged Defense and probably either Melee or AoE with PB-Farsight. Fire Mastery is right out. It's supposed to bring more damage, but Ice is just way better for AoE. Faster animation on Fireball isn't bad, but for bringing nothing but damage it's not good enough at it. Mu isn't bad on non-healing secondaries as it brings in a healing pet, and while the AoE isn't impressive it does have a fast animation. I wouldn't take it on a /Time, though.

Yes, I think it's 10 seconds. I'm not sure if it's affected by mob level, though, since it's not exactly a control effect.

Remember that Earth Control's Immobilize powers convert Knockback to Knockdown.

Elec/Elec Time's movement debuffs matter less when Elec has some End recovery options that allow it to use its Immobilize more often. And when the Immob is part of the AoE draining that it depends on. Time's recharge debuffs matter less when mobs generally will get drained relatively quickly, so it won't matter if their powers recharge faster... because it's their lack of Endurance that prevents actions (or being asleep). Same for -ToHit... other than mitigating the alpha strike (which /Elec does with the Absorb and the +Resist buffs), -ToHit is less relevant when mobs are drained. Time is strong defensively so it will help any primary defend, but /Elec will stack AoE drain and -Recovery on top of Elec/, use the Absorb/Resist to survive the alpha, and play by Immobilizing and draining enemies. /Time doesn't have any special synergy with Elec/ that makes it better with it, while /Elec does. Time is a stronger set overall than Electric, but I think for Elec primary specifically, the Elec secondary gains the most by being paired with it. BTW, on the idea of pairing -ToHit with Ice, whereas Ice likes to play in melee range due to its PBAoE aura, and has a problem with alpha strikes, /Time is a good secondary for it since with Farsight and Time's Juncture, it really makes mobs miss. Then you add -Recharge to easily floor the recharge of anything. And it has a 2nd Hold to quickly stack Holds on Bosses, while Arctic Air stacks Confuse mag on LTs and lower. So I would personally run Elec/Elec and Ice/Time, rather than the reverse matchups.

I have a different opinion about Ice. I think it shines with a secondary that provides -ToHit. The reason is that if you play Ice/Rad or Ice/Dark, after you drop all your powers on a spawn, the spawn is fully active and has no hard control upon it (other than Immobilize). However, it does have: -Recharge: mobs attack less often. Regular knockdowns: again, attack less often. -ToHit: mobs hit less often when they do attack. -Damage: mobs do less damage when they do hit. Confuse: mobs occasionally attack each other, so they attack the team less often. An AoE heal, which can easily keep up with damage done by a spawn that attacks less often, hits less often, and does less damage. Basically, it's the idea of "go ahead and act... just ineffectively" that is usually not considered true control. So you end up with opponents nerfed by redirecting and weakening their attacks rather than by preventing them.

I think I would go with Intuition. Damage is my first choice on Illusion/Dark, and you get that. Getting Hold improvement never hurts, but getting -ToHit on a /Dark is really big. Add in Spectral Terror's -ToHit, and that pushes -ToHit as more important than Hold. So, it improves the two most important stats for the character. Getting +Accuracy wouldn't hurt, but it's not as important and you can't get Accuracy and Damage together, and Damage is more important. So... Intuition.

We specialize in crowd controlling AVs. Beat that. 😝

IMO, Fire/Dark is a much better power build than Ill/Dark. Dark is a very strong defensive secondary, so with even a bit of control from the primary, you're running pretty safely against most content, so you really are looking for damage. Fire does very good damage whether single-target or AoE, while Illusion is only good at single-target damage. So, over most of the gameplay, you'll do far better with Fire/Dark than Illusion/Dark. Now, against AVs, with Fire/Dark you'll have to tank them. However, tanking an AV with /Dark is really not hard at all (especially as an Incarnate with Clarion). I mean, with Illusion it's trivial, but then you're wasting most of Dark's defensive abilities. As Fire/Dark, you can cap Ranged defenses, possibly AoE also or at least get it pretty good, keep the AV out of melee range, and debuff its damage by 100% or so. As well as putting out close to 100 HP/sec of healing. No AV is going to beat the combination of -Damage and Healing except with powers that bypass the -Damage debuffing like Tornado or Lightning Storm (so watch out for Storm AVs... fly/hover to avoid Tornado, and pull the AV away from its Storms once it summons one... which may be hard since generally you want it Immobilized). The only "issue" would be an AV with mezzing or some huge debuffing, and generally that hasn't been a problem since you can easily carry enough BFs for an AV fight, not to mention Rune of Protection, Iron Will, and Clarion for mez protection. So... you may have an issue with an AV that has some really nasty debuff like a huge -Recovery or something. Even then, they'll miss you most of the time. Overall, I think Ill/Dark is a good combination that is specialized against AVs, but Fire/Dark is one of the best Controller combos that is great against everything including AVs.

Of course. If one AT is as effective as 2-3 characters of the next best AT, who would play the other ATs, except for personal fun, in which situation imbalance is irrelevant. A game that narrows its effective choices by having greater imbalance could still be great fun... but has less replayability potential. One of the great strengths of CoH is replaying with different powersets and ATs, but to make replaying fun, we should have as many sets and ATs viable compared to others as possible... which means inter-set and inter-AT balance. Doesn't have to be balance in the same situation (scrappers for soloing, defenders for teaming), but if an AT is clearly weaker in a situation (soloing, or AoE) then it should be stronger in another situation (teaming, or single-target, etc).

To elaborate on what Luminara said: There is the question of game balance P v E. This has a lot of ability to modify that balance with better builds, more expensive enhancements, the difficulty slider, etc, so that it does a good job of hiding any actual imbalance. Then, there is the question of game balance set v set, and AT v AT. This cannot really be modified with builds (while in some cases IOs help weaker sets get closer to the average... they may also help some stronger sets get further from the baseline, also). And the difficulty slider wouldn't change the imbalance. And since the OP started with a discussion of nerfs as in specific powers/sets, it seems that this is the type of balance being discussed. Not "is the game easy or hard", but "how important is it to balance sets".

It's not dirt. It's shedding. Just don't ask what it's shedding. And don't walk where it's been.

Gotta say, coming a bit late into this thread, but it's looking a lot like: "MMORPGs shouldn't have nerfs" - 2 "Nerfs are good for game balance, game design, fun and long term survivability of the game" - 20+ and counting. Guess I don't need to make real arguments, I can just pull out Sarcasm Blast and have fun with it, while Lumi and Billy the Bubster clear the map (or thread) 😜. Obviously some game designer needs to nerf their posting 😁

If a balance nerf only lowers the damage of a set by 20%, would that ruin the set for you? And if so, since it's not affecting how the set plays, but how strong the set is, then aren't you using a different measure of the set other than just what is "fun"? Alternately, you're saying that "being strong = fun for me", and by that definition it's true that a balance adjustment that doesn't affect how a set plays would bother you... but it's also true that in this case, you're obfuscating. Because in this case, what you really care about is that a set is strong, if you define fun by being strong.

One thing about Bodyguard mode vs Aggressive, is that for a lot of pet sets it makes sense to edit Sandolphan's numeric binds, and set them up slightly differently. For example, change the Tier 1 in Beasts so that the command is for both Tier 1 and Tier 3. This way you keep the Lionesses in Bodyguard mode to avoid getting pasted by a +4 boss, but since they're your low-damage tier, it doesn't cut too much into your damage. Similarly, Necro should pair T1/T2 so they can send them aggressively, while the Lich is kept in Bodyguard mode. Alternately, keep the Zombies in Bodyguard, so you control who the Lich/Knights attack so they focus down the bosses. Etc. Sometimes all-Bodyguard is overkill defensively, but all Aggressive leaves you vulnerable to lucky attacks, or else limits you from being aggressive with attacks and debuffs.

You can also put Achilles Heel in it, freeing up a slot from the Wolves. You get to put it on only one target, but it's a stronger debuff since the Wolves are 2 levels below you... and you get to put it on the main enemy.