Wavicle

I apologize if the expression made it seem like I was talking down. I was not trying to suggest my way is better.

You do you. To me I prefer running Dakota Berg and Lord Schweinzer and since most people speed through the TFs the xp usually isn’t that great.

I do Portal Jockey and Atlas Medallion blue and the other two red.

I thought they were gonna change that?

They're not exactly the same. Release will KILL your pets where they stand. Dismiss makes them leave or desummon.

The only relevant tests MUST include performance on teams, and you can't handwave that with "it's too hard to test". A relevant test has to include the Tanker's increased ability to draw and keep aggro AND it must include the fact that on a team they are BOTH insanely tough. The Brute's increased damage is balanced in that environment, because while the improved aggro is of some value, the increased toughness of the Tanker really is only meaningful on smaller teams where there aren't enough buffs for the Brute. You cannot simply measure their solo performance against the same mission and then declare them imbalanced based on that. That isn't what the game is about. You're right I DON'T care about that sort of AT balance, and the devs never have either.

What kind of intellectually dishonest nonsense is this? What a completely irrelevant question to the topic at hand.

You haven't shown there's a problem based on math, so stop throwing that around.

Emphasis mine. You clearly are talking about fairness. In terms of Balance, they are balanced. Brutes do more damage and are squishier, tanks do less damage and are tougher. The damage differences vary a bit depending on exact situations, the survivability differences become moot at a certain point. Both ATs are valuable on teams for both their offensive and defensive abilities. That is balance. You're claiming there's a problem where there isn't one.

Because at no point have you defined "far too close". That's just an assertion you're making without basis. Based on the actual testing, no, they aren't. In fact, the opposite, Brutes can be built to survive just about as well as Tanks, but Tanks cannot build to do nearly Brute damage.

You are presupposing that in order to be "balanced" the numbers for defense and damage should be identical, but that is an assumption that isn't backed up by any data at all.

Yes, tanks get more defense than brutes get damage. No, that isn't unfair, because of the way the game works and the way IOs and Incarnates are set up.

No, that's incorrect. This is your postulate: "That the extra mitigation provided to tanks is much higher than the extra damage provided to brutes." And that is correct. But your conclusion, which seems to be "And that isn't fair" is NOT backed up by the data.

The problem, Bill, is that the tests people are submitting are showing that the difference in survivability is noticeable, but small and the difference in damage is also noticeable, but also small. You're right, it ain't rocket surgery. But people are backing it up and their results say that while numerically you may be right, the results in game are balanced.

No, I care about AT balance and I think they’re balanced enough. Brutes do better damage, Tanks are tougher, but neither by enough that it is a huge deal. That IS balance.

You are going around in circles friends. Brutes are able to tank, and Tankers do plenty of damage though not as much as Brutes. What is the problem?

in the case of force fields, they can keep their knockdown aura running, spam repulsion bomb and force bolt, and Attack. i would argue that Force Field actually takes Great advantage of the inherent, since a bubbled team can live at medium health without dying.

If things go south it benefits them plenty.

It’s the sort of thing that belongs in Incarnate content. Level shifts beyond Alpha should be restricted to iTrials.

I’m not advocating for that, though.

AT specific def soft caps should have gone in at launch, but it’s too late for that. The only way I could see it being done now would be if Defense based armor sets, and possibly some support sets, had powers that let them get to 45 when everyone else could only get 40. A little like how travel powers now work, but with def.

But damage output is more valuable than mitigation, ultimately. And so the fact that the tank is further ahead on mitigation than the brute is on damage doesn’t matter. edit: By doesn’t matter I mean they are still balanced despite it. I don’t mean it’s meaningless.

I’m sorry, anybody who thinks that brutes are obsolete because tankers now do acceptable damage has a really twisted way of looking at the game and should just be ignored. Brutes are fine. They were always monsters and they still are.

If the tank buffs went too far, then MAYBE pull them back a little. Brutes are FINE.

Brutes are still the insane destroyers they always were. Stop advocating for power creep.