Leogunner

So Tankers are adept at melee. So why can they not have their own niche with melee? Brutes are adept and feed their strength with fury, Scrappers occasionally overwhelm the target and deal double damage...and tell me how you can make them better at managing aggro. Also, tell me why anyone would care. The story of the Scrapper getting half your team killed sounds more of a failing of your Tanker and unless you're advocating for hard control so you can deal with mobs past the aggro cap, aggro has a hard limit and a finite source of utility. You'll have to start thinking outside of that niche if you're going to get anywhere.

Right back atcha: Why wouldn't a Scrapper have a really punchable face or defiant/imposing demeanor or even be a guy tossing out quips in battle. In fact, I'd probably put the likes of Spiderman or Wolverine as a Scrapper sooner than a Tanker and they fit the whole silver-tongued or imposing demeanor category that they end up drawing attention to themselves. Thinking back on some forum RP I did on the old boards, there was a character that actually did this quite well, being an Invul/EM Tanker and he had the whole "razzle dazzle" style of having bright flashy powers that drew attention and the "come over here and hit me!" tactics...but he was also very potent. I guess what I'm saying is, there is a time and place for RP and this isn't it. Those things you outline are more RP centric denominators of the AT while I'm talking about mechanics. Target caps and ranges of powers are merely numbers to be tweaked, not layers of multiple AoE effects or tags. And why would it be better? Because it's fun. I already described why it'd be fun for me: I like using Shadow Maul despite it not being effective. If it and the plethora of cones and PBAoEs could land easier, that could be the hook to play Tanker. FYI, a lot of people skip these power or merely use them as ST attacks. Now imagine if they were the trademark of the AT instead.

Thanks for the feedback. Although I kind of go into detail about the suggestion, it's by no means set in stone. I'm more just trying to convey my perspective and leave it open to others to put up criticism on what is out of bounds, underpowered, or just a better idea. The Storm Flux was kind of shooting from the hip as I sort of came up with a phrase (the perfect storm) then jammed it into a set concept to kind of alter how the sets meshed. Overall, it's a rushed concept. Something I will remind you of is, Electric Armor, by itself, is mediocre *especially* without that on-demand heal. All the Electric Armor characters I made were a SERIOUS slog until I could get that heal (although I'm sure kat/BS or dark melee would make this much smoother, but that's more a testament to those set's capabilities). So keep that in mind when you're taking the set in. Also, after I submitted the idea, I re-analyzed just how potent Gale can be and for a tank/melee type with armor, it likely would have to go or severely nerf its range and/or target cap. As for the debuff aura, I had planned for the -ToHit to be much less than Hurricane's (somewhere around -10% ToHit vs the normal -37% ToHit) but if an aura with -movement, -rech and -ToHit is too powerful, I could see removing the -ToHit completely. Needless to say, it wouldn't have the -range....also, Snow Storm is kinda a mediocre power overall so was trying to give it a bit of something more as compensation for the various things removed. Without Hurricane and Tornado, Storm Summoning is pretty tame if not bad. But again, this is all malleable. Now this I'll have to disagree on. Of course, this is all just a hypothetical brainstorm experiment so it's not like I'm shooting you down but while I was considering the AT and its style, some considerations came up and I'm curious what your thoughts would be on them: Consider a powerset that is more set-and-forget. For example, Cold Domination/Ice Armor with 2 powers being team shields, 1 being either a long recharge buff or debuff and having only a single spammable power. Do you really want to encourage repeated use of powers to get to certain effects? Same as above but what if those powers just aren't needed? Just use them anyway? Considering the inherent is giving you extra debuffs from your primary, what if those hinder the need of the secondary? Players might consider this anti-synergy, your primary's full force hindering foes so you don't need the support powers which give you your full force. I chose to isolate building Force to the primary partly because I feel you should be using your support powers when you need them, not to fulfill some quota...it'd be like tying Assassin's Focus to using one of your defensive powers...the other reason I chose to imagine Full Force the way it is is simply for simplicity. It's just easier to grasp and explain considering it's suppose to be the "fun" part of the AT and what'd make it feel unique from other melee types. The intended audience for this AT are players who enjoy melee ATs and I feel typing Full Force to the support powers just forces players to play a certain way...which leads into the next part: Were you playing on a fan server? I went back and recovered my old account and played on the live servers around a year back. I quit though because I was just running into a lot of roadblocks to complete quests. Like I'd need some obscure item and trying to buy it off the market was neigh impossible because there were few on the market and prices were a tad out of my price range. I wouldn't mind going on a fan server and starting over... ...that being said, your concerns for characters pretending they are Brutes, I'll ask: is that a bad thing? I think it'd be great if you can build the AT to do different things at the cost of another. It likely wouldn't be a very strong Brute but you could try...build it to be a massive wall of a Tank, an offensive oriented Interscraptor or whatever. That's the beauty of the CoH ATs. Yeah, not sure what I was thinking. Went back and fixed it tho.

But there's nothing you can do with threat management in PvE unless you're talking removing aggro from other players. And by end game, how much use is that going to be? And i'd challenge you to question player's Tanker concepts and find out if they are adept or powerful in melee. I doubt many make a Tanker with the intent to be inept at melee. So if they are to be adept, why not feed into it except to argue its power creep.

That's more listing the things they have, not the identity they are known for. For example, Stalkers are crit kings because they apply lots of crits and they have a strong hidden crit in Assassin's Strike. Their identity isn't stack Assassin's focus, use placate and AoE fear and unresistable - 5% ToHit. I want Tanker *melee* (not talking about their armor) to have an identity. It should be they have the biggest, showiest, most attention grabbing attacks. They got the attention grabbing part but now I'm focusing on why they grab attention. Why does a stalker's attacks crit more? Because they are opportunistic, accurate and calculating. It's why they can control when they crit. So why does a scrapper crit? Because they are just that good. They are strong and skilled at what they do which is reflected in their melee mods. Why does a Brute hit harder? It's implied being in combat feeds into some kind of reserve or unlocks some potential. Basically they get angry or let loose. So why does tanker taunt? Or more specifically, why do their attacks draw so much attention? *crickets* My vision is a Tanker's strength comes in the volume, I. E. Potential size, of their strikes. That they permeate and penatrate and thus the boom draws attention. Just like the lightning does more damage but the thunder makes you jump and cause everything to rumble.

To be brutally honest, I'm not a big tanker fan. I only have a couple. But one thing I am a fan of: Shadow Maul. I love using it despite it being less than optimal. I'd love for a means of making it better without needing to make it OP. It just so happens, when I first thought of the idea back on live, it fit with Tanker AT. As is, they are a predominantly melee AT without a melee identity. Stalkers are the crit kings, Scrappers are the top melee, Brutes are the Hulk hitters. What are tankers? The "apply - res with their weakest attack and taunt"? The last one is also accomplished by brute so minus that. I want to be able to reliably hit 3 guys with shadow maul, not hit 3 guys if you carefully line them up. And if I had to go to tanker for that, I think it's a worthwhile means to a melee identity.

Is double critting still a thing? Haven't seen it yet myself.

I'm still considering aspects of this AT and I started to think about its overall role and how it'd compare to other ATs. I made statements in the OP but didn't put as much thought in it as I have over time. Still thinking but some thoughts I figured I'd put on paper are its roles, strengths and weaknesses by level. For those that don't PuG much and tend to skip this to get to endgame, the role stack shifts in level ranges as certain power tiers become available. For instance, Scrappers might not flip out very often until post lvl 26 when some of their strongest attacks are now available and slotted and likely have some mitigation powers slotted; control ATs can be particularly strong at mitigating damage via simply mass immobilize between ranges lvl 2 - 16 since mobs ranged attacks still haven't become that formidable but this starts to drop off in usefulness as teammates and support mature and immob starts to hinder AoE when not used properly; or the game overall shifts at level 33+ as they get their primary tier 9s. The level ranges I'll post are the basic slotting/power milestones of lvl 1-22, lvl 23-32, lvl 33-40 and lvl 41+. There are more milestones such as with incarnate unlocks or opening ancillary pools but those, IMO, are less important as the ATs start to become more homoginized in their capabilities and the uniqueness comes in the combination of powers and pools. For the Interceptor: Lvl 1-22 Very early, this AT would feel quite powerful as the gap between damaging powers isn't as vast and the amount of HP foes have is smaller. The reason Interceptor would feel strong is mainly because it'd be an AT with overall moderate self protection with support powers on par with a Corruptor. This means this AT could keep their allies in the game while still having decent damage. This AT would NOT be able to easily tank early on despite its inherent taunting foes. This is obviously because most of the ATs' powersets has no mez protection until lvl 20. Comparatively, Scrapper and Stalker get mez protection around lvl 10! Shifting between support and attacking inherently lowers the AT's DPS. This would likely exacerbate when one considers the shorter ranges of those support powers, meaning that this would likely lower personal DPS compared to all other melees but with the benefit of being a multiplier. Come level 20 with the opening of mez protection, the role of support and aggro management fully opens but you'd still fall behind the likes of a Tanker or Brute in the same team as you'd likely be able to boost them over yourself. On a team without either tank, there is still the aspect of obtaining that aggro. A Scrapper likely would still end up being your tank while you're the wing man striking foes with Full Force when they aren't focused on you. Lvl 23-32 SOs and decent basic IOs make this range see a shift in mob difficulty. ATs like Defender, Corruptor and Controller will have outpaced this AT's support at this point. Before, the Interceptor had the advantage of armor and them mez protection but by this point, support ATs have their bread and butter slotted, likely support powers you will never get. This again shifts the role to be more of an "off-support emergency patcher" as your support will likely serve better to keep yourself alive. On teams with Tankers or Brutes, your Full Force attacks + support will start gaining you ire from the mobs more often and if you took your taunt power, you could likely take over as tank after the alpha strike. Taking alphas yourself might still be dangerous, similar to a standard slotted Scrapper... Blappers likely would make friends with you as you can keep them alive (much different from a Tanker) and take the heat off of them (more instantaneously than a Brute). Lvl 33-40 With full kit and good slotting, expect to lean more on Full Force than your support to keep you alive with your ability to tank coming from unleashing that support along with taunt. DPS-wise, you'd need to pick the right powerset combo to be competitive with the moderately set-up Brutes or high-end tankers like Fire or Kinetic Melee (yeah, it would be up there). Don't expect much else, DPS-wise here. It's a off-support/tank... Support-wise, it's actually kind of low. MM would likely provide more potent support. But complexity-wise, Interceptor is much simplier and has some unique adaptable techniques compared. A team of all Interceptor would be just disgusting...depending on the sets, they'd likely outstrip a team of Scrappers. A team of Defenders would still eclipse them, however. lvl 40+ Not really sure about this because I don't know what ancillary sets they'd have. Most of the game doesn't change too drastically until Incarnates and I find most of them rather boring. So drawing a blank here...

In talking target caps and ranges. Not aggro caps.

I'd say it depends on how long you could maintain that bonus and what attacks could you use *with* that bonus. If you hit that number but used up all your hard hitters to get there, what do you use to take advantage of it? Although I'm sure Scrapper KM is the better option, the differences between Stalker and Scrapper is why I enjoy both those ATs the most. And I'm sure Repulsing Torrent is nice with special slotting but have you used the new AS? Especially considering how much wind up KM has, having a super slick and quick BOP! crit in your pocket cannot be ignored. It's very nice to have. I'd probably say KM on a Brute is likely the worst since KM's whole shtick is +dmg and Brute has the lowest damage mods...you really only pull ahead when the other ATs reach their cap because Brute will keep going higher... ...I guess part of what is made up for Brute is that Concentrated Strike doesn't do double damage on any ATs so it's all about the damage bonuses.

Whatever tech is used to differentiate Brute/Tanker Storm Kick to give it +def when Scrapper/Stalker Storm Kick does not or whatever is used to differentiate Stalker Dual Blade's One Thousand Cuts (10ft range) from every other One Thousand Cuts (7ft range), use that.

I didn't say it doesn't make a difference, I said it doesn't make a *perceivable* difference. Increasing Tanker Max HP by 10 technically makes a difference but no one would ever notice it. Increasing their unkillableness by 5% when they already aren't dying wouldn't be noticed unless you were specifically keeping tabs on performance vs a Brute. I still stand by my suggestion to just make Tanker AoEs hit more targets and more reliably. It plays into their nature of surrounding themselves in a sea of foes, can be fun if you're used to playing Scrap/Brute with more confined cone attacks like Jacob's Ladder or Cleave, only indirectly increases damage (not really power creep), rewards them more for herding up foes to them and lets them taunt more things faster. Oh, and it's all number adjustment tweaks in the power so not directly recoding mechanics.

Next up is pretty straight forward: Dark Flux (Dark Miasma/Dark Affinity + Dark Armor) Twilight Grasp [mostly unchanged, just shorter range] Foe -ToHit/-Dmg/-Regen; Team PBAoE heal, 40ft range Dark Embrace [unchanged] Toggle Self +res Smash/Lethal/Neg Energy/Toxic Murky Cloud [unchanged] Toggle Self +res Fire/Cold/Energy/Neg Energy Howling Twilight [mostly unchanged, just shorter range] Foe -Speed/Rech/Regen, mag 2 stun; PBAoE Team Rez, 40ft range Obsidian Shield [unchanged] Toggle Self +res Psionic/Stun/Hold/Sleep/Terror Cloak of Darkness [unchanged] Toggle Self +stealth, +def All, +res Immobilize Petrifying Gaze [unchanged, same range] Foe mag 3 hold Soul Absorption [reduced target cap] Foe -ToHit; PBAoE Team +Regen/Recovery, 10 Foes max Cloak of Abyss [mix of Darkest Night and Cloak of Fear] Foe -ToHit/-Dmg, mag 2 Fear There are a lot of powers to pull from and I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to go for. There were a few things I was sure of though: that the set should have the foundation of Dark Armor (i.e. the resist toggles) and it shouldn't have Tar Patch or the ability to rez both itself and the team. I was against Tar Patch because I feel that is one of the bread and butter components of Dark Miasma so should remain its staple and Dark Regeneration because it would then be unkillable. I feel the moderate resists of Dark Armor + the -ToHit and boost in Regen/Recovery would make this have a unique spot amongst Dark Builds in the melee category while staying away from overshadowing the strengths of the Dark support builds. Its tier 9 would have a wider range than Cloak of Fear (15ft instead of 8), double the -ToHit of Cloak of Fear but not as much as Darkest Night (-5% v -10% v -18%) and retain the damage debuff of Darkest Night. Total, Cloak of Abyss would have -10% ToHit, -28% Dmg and a mag 2 fear. Dark Melee This set's Full Force additional damage would be higher than most because it has smaller AoEs. Expect the Full Force attacks to apply double the -ToHit when it procs (so -5.25% x2) Siphon Life doesn't apply double -ToHit but instead double Heal Touch of Fear doesn't apply double -ToHit but instead an additional Mag 2 Fear Soul Drain's Full Force applies an additional +3.5% res to -ToHit/-Def/-Regen/-Recovery debuffs per target hit. The set's Full Force special attack is Dark Consumption. When this attack hits Full Force, it applies -ToHit, -Regen, -Def and -Recovery debuffs to every target hit. This would be the moderately flexible Jack-of-all-synergy melee set for the AT as it has the ability to synergize with lots of sets just like for the other melee ATs. The implication with its special Full Force attack is that when it is prepped (by stacking Force with your other attacks) and used, the debuffs it applies are relatively long lasting, like 25-30sec which still isn't much considering the power's 180sec recharge. This is both to give that power more weight when its used as well as to reign in the Full Force debuffs this set could accomplish as a whole.

Don't forget about the criticism that the suggestion makes no perceivable difference to the majority of players.

You can suggest all day. I'm just stating what the suggestion is: an appeal to the perspective that Tankers are inferior to Brutes, a complex that isn't hindering either ATs from playing or enjoying the game and content and does nothing but gives said complex a pity rub of the shoulders.

An appeal to a perspective of inferiority, or what I'd call an inferiority complex, demonstrated not by merely stating the fact that Brute can often steal the role of a tanker but by suggesting one be nerfed or by proposing something that doesn't functionally change the dynamic between the two. I'll say it again, I severely doubt people are dropping Tankers from groups just to reserve the spots for Brutes. The game isn't that challenging to require such micromanagement. At the end of the day, it is on the player if they want to make a Tanker, Brute or Scrapper and if you don't like the trade-offs Tanker makes, then don't play it. The main disparity that I could see being remedied is the inequality of distribution (i.e. how many play Brute vs Tanker) and the only way to fix that is to make the two more unique in their styles of combat.

The way I see it, you've got dozens upon dozens of players that are asking for many many things. Some players want challenge, some want variety, some what more sense of progression, some want freedom, some want structure. The thing is, all these things can be opposed to each other or some can complement other changes. While none of these suggestions on the boards are likely to come about, you can still consider them outside of the vacuum of the suggestion itself and how they'd co-existing with other possibilities out there. In none of those possibilities do I see changing the armor tier 9s to be more efficient co-existing *better* with everything else among the game. Just because you can use IOs to achieve what these powers do doesn't mean we need to change the powers. If anything, the IO bonuses should be changed. Same argument that people use to defend incarnate: If you don't like invalidating team roles/powers with incarnate powers, don't use/team with incarnate players. If you don't like your armor tier9s being redundant or worthless, then don't make your tier9 redundant or worthless.

Power Creep! Power Creep as far as they eye can see!

I'd say remove set IOs from the discussion and then restart the thread from there.

You can't play FFIV with friends. Me being my centrist self, I don't see why you guys are such tribalists. It's a game... If some people go play WoW for a while, that's a break from CoH that might envigorate them if/when they return to whatever game they decide to play again. This whole brand loyalist mentality is especially faulty when you're not even selling something. But if you're comfortable being a crotchety old grump and stoke embers of a feud long run cold, who am I to poke fun at your illogical perspective? FYI, I've never played WoW. I was a FFXI player...

I was mainly talking about basic enhancements and basic IOs.

You right, I think the only main advantage of it would be slotting. As is, your Stone Skin only takes resist enhancements but if it also gave +def or +health with another armor toggle, you've got 3 more slot opportunities if you decide to put extra slots into the power (assuming you only put 2-3 slots in the power currently).

I actually did that on live. Concept was it was basically Pixydust attacks cause she was a fairy.

Could also make the other powers apply different effects depending on which toggle stance you're using. Like you mentioned brimstone about giving mudpots a fiery embrace effect but how about just making earth's embrace also apply fiery embrace if using brimstone? Have the passive apply unique stuff too.

I find your assumption that I didn't make the connection rather confrontational. Do you want to get into that type of discussion? Because I'm all for it. AVs aren't common. AVs with mechanics to shut down debuffs is also not a circumstance to base a role around either. And whether an argument is compelling to you I frankly don't care. If it's not true, then consider circumstances where it might be. If it's never true, state why. Don't throw limp retorts to try and make believe you're the civil rational poster here.