Leogunner

I believe I suggested it before on the old forums, but a change to give FF a team offensive multiplier while still being somewhat unique would be just adding effects on your teammates attacks. For example : Force Patch (name pending) - friend targeted AoE click, add smashing damage to all attacks. Kind of like adding a 100% chance damage proc with a chance to knock back as well.

That that point, we'd need to discuss the capabilities of the hypothetical AT in question. But as is, Taunts work in magnitudes and durations just like mez and mobs can be peeled off to other targets for various reasons. If a meatier teammate is around, likely they have inherent taunt rolled in their attacks. If you're on a team without other taunters, likely you're going to be built to handle it. It's like putting the horse before the cart: if you are tough enough, use taunt. But you're arguing the other way: they have taunt, but are they tough enough? And no, I think it should have the range debuff and taunt. I made that suggestion because mez toggles already exist and can simply be copied (except for fire, iirc), and because the inherent is just one power. I saw it as less work than coming up with new, different powers for every set. I'm certainly not opposed to doing it the other way around. I'm not sure how to feel about mex protection that is just always on for an AT and costs no endurance. How good should that be allowed to be? Personally, I don't think the inherent power should be EITHER mez protection or sustain. That should be taken care of by their powers. The inherent should be something that makes the sets play differently or emphasizes something else about them so being a Energy Melee Brute would feel vastly different from an Energy Melee [whatever this AT is] without needing to make the powers of the set actually new. I was approaching this primarily from a thematic point of view, which is why I mentioned the paladin. It's usually a melee dude with some spells to heal and buff with. A very common thing for people to visualise when a melee and support character is mentioned, and why I would prefer an AT that could have Empathy or Thermal. But eh, if certain kinds of sets are what work best then that's pretty much that. Mechanically, I guess I'd aim for basically a Corruptor who trades damage for mez protection and a bit extra survivability against incidental AoE damage. You don't hit as hard but you're also not as vulnerable to stray crowd control. Plus you get a new perspective due to using different attack sets. A melee primary and support/defence hybrid secondary AT is pretty cool and would be a much individually thougher individual tho it'd lose out on support stuff. I'd be fine with that archetype, too. It'd be closer still to Night Widows which is something I rather like playing, so that's not a problem. I was just thinking about something that's tougher than a Defender but not tougher than a Scrapper because... well, it's just where I started. Frankly, there are various ways this idea could go so I'd rather just look at someone's idea and talk about it vs trying to come down on a consensus about the AT's concept. I guess if people are interested in that type of discussion, I'm not trying to stop you.

So the only valid answers are supportive of the proposition? Lol this has got to be the most retarded justification I've seen. The whole "/jranger" joke is just that, a joke. It's not serious. Or did you forget its origins? It's fine if you don't have a measured response to something but don't conflate criticism to your lack of ability to form a response that can be discussed some sort of push toward censorship or disregarding proper criticism.

I've done practically all those methods. It's really up to you how you justify it. I've got 2 characters, a DP/Fire/Ice and a DP/Ice (hasn't gotten //Fire yet) but conceptually, you only need one. I just felt like trying out /Ice...but anyway, the character's concept is there are two demons, one with fire element powers and one with ice element powers. They are working under Infernal as basically slaves but they get some freedom when they go out fighting crime at the city's bidding. At all times, one of the two must remain bound to a weapon allowing the other to wield it or in this case, a pair of pistols. Functionally, when using the fire demon's costume, she can use normal or cryo ammo for the pistols (because the ice demon is stuck in there so he can charge bullets) and the powers of the /fire manipulation set and when using the ice demon's costume, he can use normal or incendiary ammo and the powers in //cold mastery. I have costume change macros so I can swap costumes and ammo and I just have to use my own knowledge of my characters to remember not to use certain powers to keep up the illusion. That being said, I do have "special costumes" I like to call their "Ascended Forms" kind of like an anime power-up where they somehow combine their powers, allowing me to use all powers and ammo but I don't use it very often. On the other hand, I have a teen-hero student (Kat/SR) who, while not doing official hero work (i.e. only patrolling or doing random-like tasks), he isn't licensed to carry his live weapon so he keeps a bokken (basically a hardwood sword in the shape of a katana). The attacks are intentionally unoptimized and all do smashing damage (IO procs). But when he's working under licensed heroes and doing important missions, he can use his custom katana (a more min/maxed build). It's easy to simulate this by using two builds. He also has an unfortunate curse that turns him into a were-tiger (it's one of my oldest CoH character concepts...) and so simply changing his costume and turning on Toughness simulates that part. I've got more examples but you get the idea.

For the same reason Stalkers don't get Taunt. It just doesn't do what the AT wants to do. Because it's rather antithetical to what a Stalker wants to do, i.e. go unseen. They also have an interruptible melee ranged attack that hinges on not being hit while using it. Why not? Why would that not be a viable tactic? In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute. I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face. It's not just about not doing what the AT wants to do, it's about not dying. That's implied. But placate isn't about not dying (stopping 1 guy from attacking you only pauses A fight, everyone else will still shoot and kill you) but rather using the AT's mechanic during combat since, in the beginning, the only way to AS was to run away and let yourself fall back into hide. Nah. Either you ran some paper thin stalkers that didn't pick up their secondary powers or you were fighting things you shouldn't be fighting. In circumstances that are balanced (just a boss/Lt and a few minions) it's not that dangerous to AS. In a group, it's implied there's...you know, a group. If you can AS a team-sized spawn and easily live, then do so. If you can't, then don't. The same goes for any Fire Brute that doesn't have the sustain to take an alpha or a Tanker without their mez protection yet. Outlier examples like that have no relevance to why Stalker gets Placate instead of Taunt. I have. I wouldn't categorize Controller or MM though as they have CC and pets. And of course an EMPATHY can't run into melee and not get killed by a sizable spawn but I bet you a Dark Miasma can or a Storm Summoner. But none of that is here nor there. To make a Melee/Support function smoothly, you can't just plop a support set on it and call it a day. More than that is required. But a Stalker isn't Support so that comparison isn't congruent. But like I said, whether a Melee/Support taunts or not purely depends on WHY they are taunting. As is, Tanker/Brute taunt has a debuff to range that forces mobs closer to be able to act. I see no reason why a Melee/Support wouldn't want that. Or would you prefer mobs shoot at you where you can't affect them? [EDIT to add] I find it funny you two are forcing me into arguing for a debuff on an AT whose likely purpose in a group is to debuff. Lol why does Brute even need Fury? MM don't need more pet buffs/commands. And +mag on Dominator Controls? Unnecessary! lol We get it. You two don't like the Taunt powers and you skip them whenever possible. I still don't think that's a reason to remove them, especially when the AT has MUCH more pressing issues to deal with.

I feel that's an assed backwards approach. So let's replace a power slottable for some effect with something that can't be slotted for its effect (mez resistance/protection) and let's put an effect into the inherent that likely needs to be enhanced to function well (defense/resistance/HP/absorb/etc) into an inherent that can't be slotted for. Why not reverse it and make the inherent mez resist/protection and some kind of skill swap have your sustain? Firstly, I think the idea of the thread is to discuss what the fundamentals of the AT would be. Is it a DPS? A high-damage support? An off-tank with debuffs? All of the above? Trying to pin it to a specific in-game NPC seems shortsighted (although it is a fact those ink men are quite annoying primarily because of their stacking debuffs). Secondly, you mention Paladin as a role. That's a class. In fact, most Paladins in MMOs are the premiere Tanker. So there's going to be confusion with trying to interpret the meaning there. Thirdly, you mentioned Cleric. I'm assuming you're talking about the heals of Empathy rather than what makes Empathy functionable: it's buffs. If I'm misinterpreting this, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't see why you can't make a hybrid Empathy/Regen set that does what Empathy does but less so and still functions as a workable Cleric type. Here, I'll even do it for you... Cleric - (NEW passive) Increases Max HP and healing received/given 1. Heal Other 2. Reconstruction 3. Recovery Aura (MODDED click) Lower team recovery for longer uptime. Something like 80% Recovery, 90sec duration 300sec recharge and arguably better than Regen's Quick Recovery at 30% recovery passive. 4. Dull Pain 5. Resilient Integration (MODDED toggle) Combines Resilience and Integration for a higher END cost. 6. Clear Mind 7. Regeneration Aura (MODDED click) Same as Recovery Aura, modded for longer uptime but less regen. Arguably worse than Instant Healing since it wouldn't be as potent burst healing. 8. Fortitude 9. Moment of Glory It retains much of the utility of Empathy while arguably improving on the basics (Recovery and Regeneration Aura have too long a cooldown for too short a duration with overkill effect which hampers the usefulness of them) while leaving some uniqueness to the actual primary support Empathy and also not leaving it high and dry when it uses its other powerset (melee). I think that's another thing not being considered here. Yes, you want a new AT to have its own role but you also don't want to overshadow other roles. Consider that Defenders can ALREADY tank, they just do so in an unconventional way. I'm merely suggesting the prospect of diverting the AT to a MORE conventional tanking method because it would help the melee set function.

Seems more like a self-fulfilling argument. "Some powers can't be slotted with sets so not every power has sets that can be slotted therefore they SHOULDN'T have sets slotted!" I'd say, come back with a better argument.

Obviously it depends on the power sets that the AT is designed around. I'm pretty sure that an /Empath wouldn't have much reason to appreciate a taunt effect while someone with /Radiation Emission could make do. Depends on what the inherent power is, too. I'm assuming that, since the other ATs got plenty of sets proliferated, this AT would have most any melee and support set available to them. So giving all their primaries a power that likely only works for some of the secondaries doesn't seem like a worthwhile design goal to me. I'm also assuming that secondaries go unchanged and that primaries don't see more changes than having the taunt power swapped out for something. Going all out like for Sentinels is of course a possibility but I'm not sure that's needed to create a fun and satisfying AT that fills untapped stylistic space. Point taken and read the my previous post before my reply to you. I don't think a 1-for-1 set proliferation is going to work for such an AT. So /Empathy likely wouldn't work for a melee focused AT on the principal that you're rushing into a fight with literally 2 skills to mitigate damage to yourself (Regeneration Aura and Healing Aura). That is guaranteed not to work. Either those powers would have to be greatly improved for the user or something like a Empathy/Regeneration hybrid set would need to be made. So the issue of making a powerset combination that isn't completely broken should be the 1st priority, not what should replace Taunt.

For the same reason Stalkers don't get Taunt. It just doesn't do what the AT wants to do. Because it's rather antithetical to what a Stalker wants to do, i.e. go unseen. They also have an interruptible melee ranged attack that hinges on not being hit while using it. Why not? Why would that not be a viable tactic? In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute. I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face.

I definitely think you have a good point, particularly on the subject of ease of implementation but I think it's also important to consider any potential problems such an implementation could have if you're looking for simply 1-to-1 set proliferation without consideration to the concept or the balance. CC is definitely a problem to consider and a Domination-esque inherent might be the simple solution for that. But there's also the consideration that the support sets' design goals are very much different from the goals of a character that requires close combat. Like Kinetics would probably be the worst setup for this AT as it has almost 0 sustain and a lucky 2-shot from a boss is very likely to be its fate and there's nothing its got except DPS and efficiency buffs...but you can't DPS if you're dead. Then there are powers like Force Bubble (and you can probably pick a few from Storm Summoning pretty easily) that just don't work for someone that needs to be in melee to deal with their enemies. No matter how you slice it, there won't be a 1-for-1 powerset config for this.

Something I learned last night: you CAN change body size and type at the trainer wholesale but likely only below level 10 (the level where it stops being free).

Perhaps I'm in the minority but I don't often rush around putting down every last minion as the spawn dwindles to nothing. It's inevitable that after the big Alpha Strike and the big AoEs roll down and bring most of the mobs down, there will still be a few minions on the outskirts or a lucky Lt that was missed a few times. As a Stalker, my job is to bring that boss or Lt down right along with the minions. That being said, I leave the stragglers to the Brutes or let the MM's pets handle the light work. Basically, when there's only 3 or so minions left, over half your team are shooting at the hip to take them out first...not my Stalker. I just move onto the next group and start scoping out the next targets to get rid of. There, I feel Hide's true advantage shows. I can start the fight when I want to and take my time picking the exact victim rather than trying to jump at it in plain sight and hope the game doesn't hiccup and I'm actually 30ft away from where I wanted to land, ruining any alpha strike deflection methods I had in store.

That reminds me, I need to remake my little hyper genius monkey MA/SD teleporting scrapper. I did enjoy doing the whole teleporting in your face EC maneuver. Since he had every teleporting power, he could do the same but with the whole team.

My stalker would gladly swap with your corruptors.

Sounds pretty pretentious. I mean, yay props. A dev patted you on the head. I guess you're the authority on pretending to be an actor playing a part for no money. Shall we immortalize you forever in the servers of CoX (*cough*whilethey'restillaround*cough*) so that we will forever know the name of...some other character you pretended to be? Not to throw shade but you're asking for it sitting on your high-horse lol

Silly, everyone likes bacon! Even pigs will eat it. Batman is Jewish tho.

This is the one where I feel you could get away with having a low-Mag Fear effect, since without a way to inflict Fear or Sleep, you have to rely on your team having those debuffs to be able to keep MFD reliable. I think you may be right. I initially started out with jack_nomind's upgraded Battle Axe set and decided on stuff to take out to fit in the new mechanics. Putting in a bit more to facilitate the mechanic would be necessary. I thought about creating a Stalker version and display the Brute/Scrapper version but your template didn't have room and I was too lazy to modify it lol One stipulation with Stalker's Assassin's Strike is that set mechanics cannot be integrated in them for balance reasons. But most likely, Rift would be replaced to fit in AS similarly to Electric Melee's Thunderclap was swapped. It would really be a requirement for some other part of the set to have something for either fear or sleep. Maybe changing "Dissect" into "Grim Operation" that does less damage but has a guaranteed sleep (targets clutching their wounds in a shocked manner). Assassin's Strike from hid does have a wide range chance of fear so there's also that synergy too. [EDIT]Ok well I just checked it and they actually DO incorporate set mechanics into AS, even as far back as Dual Blades (it's been so long since I played DB Stalker...). Although it seems like it's mostly the new sets that do this. I suppose it wouldn't hurt for AS to have a guaranteed application of MfD since likely they would get Build Up instead of Reap (as per their overall AT design).

But it's OK to use the same argument to ask for buffs?

Came to the thread to say that. I wasn't tracking the version of soul drain changing from the standard version. If a change should be made, it's bringing dark mastery in line.

Hopefully shortened that quote string, about to head to bed but I was not trying to make a gotcha comment. The Archetype was listed as a Ranged one even in CoH literature. Sure they have short range powers but short is not the same as melee. Yes the secondary has some melee powers (of which most are pointless compared to the Primary nukes). The melees are inefficient and not really fitting, there are better ways to make a character that uses ranged and melee hence why in the suggestion thread for them I suggested (as have others) that the melee powers be replaced. I don't want to argue about semantics, not my intent, I was just trying to say that the majority of the live Power pools are ranged and not melee, and that actually being Support, as listed on the CoH page for Blasters would be better and more useful power pool choices in their Secondary. Unfortunately, you're years too late with the whole Blaster identity crisis schtick. No, you're not going to get team heals and buffs in your secondary, they already have debuffs and controls and the inherent benefits from having more attacks to fuel it, including those melee attacks. Next you gonna tell me their inherent power is wonky too? Been there, done that. Anyway, you sort of made it a semantics argument when you said "Ice sword etc are not really suitable for a ranged dps Archetype." Because Blaster isn't a ranged DPS archetype, they are a straight up DPS archetype. They even have good damage mods for melee attacks. Where on the other hand, they don't have good mods for buffs and putting more ranged attacks in the secondary is redundant.

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk. I agree they are not worth the risk, I disagree that the AT isnt Ranged focus, the Primary power pool are Ranged attacks. Scrappers Primary pool is Melee attacks. Sure you can play a blaster with melee attacks but that doesnt fit the overall design behind Blasters, glass cannons. But the Blast sets aren't pure ranged. Really? Could have fooled me, I just looked at all the Primary power pools and they are ranged powers. Even the CoH site says: Hit Points: Low Damage: High Primary Power Category - Ranged Secondary Power Category - Support That sounds like a Ranged DPS type to me *shrug* Tell me the range of Blackstar, Hail of Bullets, Short Circuit, Nova, Inferno, Psychic Wail, Irradiate, Atomic Blast or Dreadful Wail not to mention the various other cones or shortened ranged attacks of the sets. But I understand you were being intentionally facetious to try and make a gotcha comment. The point I was trying to make is, your assessment that their primary is ranged damage = only being ranged DPS flies in the face of logic when you look at their secondary which clearly has melee ranged attacks too. Also, it's logical that someone like Blaster will be drawn into close range because their team's support will likely be centered on mid-to-close range.

If it even worked the way I imagined it, slotting for Sleep would become a lot worse. Let's take a Sleep that currently lasts 15 seconds. If we converted it to Sleep-over-time (if that's even possible), it would become something like 5 ticks of 5-second sleeps, over 10 seconds. Unslotted and uninterrupted, that would still last 15 seconds. However, with 100% sleep enhancement, the original version would last 30 seconds, while the Sleep-over-time version would last only 20 seconds. So it'd be a buff in one way, but a nerf in another. Then the question would be why bother with it at all? Players that use and slot sleep likely get their money's worth and this is only pandering to players who already have a full course of other control options available. This is in a similar position (although not as hotly discussed) as knockback. At best, such a suggestion would be best implemented as some sort of trade-off option like a slot enhancement that might cast sleep on the target again. Something not mentioned regarding sleep is how it is stacked. Blaster Frozen Aura is one of those sleeps that don't cause damage thus it can actually stack with other sleeps to put resistant foes to sleep. Personally, I think an easy QoL fix for Sleep effects would be removing "damage ends the effect" and just have the magnitude remain but the effect suppressed. You could then create some sort of effect where if the target doesn't act (use their endurance), they can fall back to sleep if the effect hasn't expired. Why bother? Because it makes Sleep a more reliable method of control. It wouldn't be appropriate for every sleep power, but I think it would work well for Frozen Aura. Right, I forgot we were talking about Frozen Aura rather than sleeps in general. I suppose it could be a possible utility to change for the manipulation set.

Blasters are not a ranged DPS archetype, they are a DPS archetype. That means DPS at any range. Melee attacks are not a problem, the problem is them not being worth the risk. I agree they are not worth the risk, I disagree that the AT isnt Ranged focus, the Primary power pool are Ranged attacks. Scrappers Primary pool is Melee attacks. Sure you can play a blaster with melee attacks but that doesnt fit the overall design behind Blasters, glass cannons. But the Blast sets aren't pure ranged.

If it even worked the way I imagined it, slotting for Sleep would become a lot worse. Let's take a Sleep that currently lasts 15 seconds. If we converted it to Sleep-over-time (if that's even possible), it would become something like 5 ticks of 5-second sleeps, over 10 seconds. Unslotted and uninterrupted, that would still last 15 seconds. However, with 100% sleep enhancement, the original version would last 30 seconds, while the Sleep-over-time version would last only 20 seconds. So it'd be a buff in one way, but a nerf in another. Then the question would be why bother with it at all? Players that use and slot sleep likely get their money's worth and this is only pandering to players who already have a full course of other control options available. This is in a similar position (although not as hotly discussed) as knockback. At best, such a suggestion would be best implemented as some sort of trade-off option like a slot enhancement that might cast sleep on the target again. Something not mentioned regarding sleep is how it is stacked. Blaster Frozen Aura is one of those sleeps that don't cause damage thus it can actually stack with other sleeps to put resistant foes to sleep. Personally, I think an easy QoL fix for Sleep effects would be removing "damage ends the effect" and just have the magnitude remain but the effect suppressed. You could then create some sort of effect where if the target doesn't act (use their endurance), they can fall back to sleep if the effect hasn't expired.

I think the issue with that, is that it makes Sleep feel too much like Fear. I wouldn't be against it, but I think others would have something to say about it, heh. Who the hell are the sleep white knights? That makes no sense. What do you mean? Please explain. What I'm saying is, who actually thinks this would overpower sleeps, or that sleeps are fine as is? They're the worst of the soft control powers, and are routinely listed as skipable. Fear power are flat out better, and typically have a substantial to-hit penalty as well. Electric control's sleeps re-apply. That should probably be proliferated to other sets. At minimum, make a good IO set that has such a proc in it that guarantees it will reapply through the sleep's duration.. The way I interpreted it was that changing sleeps to be like fear might require rebalancing (since sleeps have the advantage of having pretty obscene durations if slotted and go uninterrupted) and thus might alter how players use their utilities.