JayboH

Oh wow, I have some reading to do. Cool.

Whip attacks debuff resistance by less than 9.4% each by the way. Corruption costs 6.5 end, 1.23 seconds Lash is 10.66 end, 1.8 seconds Crack Whip is 17.94 end, 2.33 seconds That's 35.1 endurance out of 100 to debuff a target's resistance by 28.125% which takes 5.36 seconds to cast if done back to back allowing 4.64 seconds for other incoming damage to take advantage before the resist debuff gets weaker. Naturally 35.1 endurance isn't going to recover naturally during that 4.64 seconds and of course we are doing it in a vacuum by dismissing tohit checks and end cost enhancements (and recharge) and also dismissing the damage the attacks do to the target. I guess primaries can keep their end cost penalties, but why does everything else have to have it too? The leadership discussion is an interesting one. It would be kind of neat to allow MMs to have defender-strength leadership IMO - their secondary sets would stay weaker than defender's, they don't get the cool inherent properties defender's do with increased damage and end cost reduction that vary depending on team size and health. Leadership you would think should be amazing lore-wise on MMs.

Yeah and again stressing SO balance to boot. I don't think the whole 'pets do everything' argument holds any weight at all in today's game for the multiple reasons given here. I'm not sure how common Ageless is for MMs, but I'm sure they figured most would go for Support Core Hybrid. Max level that's only a 10% end reduction

Yeah summoning speed is certainly an issue, and they can get hit during that animation time (if I recall,) yet you cannot train them during that animation time or buff them individually or heal them without an AOE. Those mentioning the idea that things are this way because MMs don't spend endurance to do the majority of their damage couldn't have read the thread or even the OP. 😐

You should be: it's designed to be worse, on purpose, and if it isn't, you've just discovered a bug. That's what I am questioning - I explained spamming secondaries contrasting to other ATs that may be played the same way like controllers and corruptors, and also SO usage intentionally. We all know things can be overcome with proper IO slotting or at least by giving up power strength for more end cost, which is why I am asking about this under those specific (and correct) views. We should be examining how it compares to those other classes, as you are using the same secondaries to not only take care of your team but your individual pets as well, and consider it makes no sense that the devs want us to purposely ignore attacks during the creation of this class, and also remember the game is and should always be balanced around SO slotting.

That's the first time I've ever seen anyone mention 'bug' with the endurance penalty. I don't think anyone has ever thought it was a bug...?

Probably - I used to make lots of Youtube videos on a personal channel for this game. The last 4 years though I have made videos for what is now known as Fandom Games.

I've got a TA/AR build here that worked for me well on closed beta, in case you can convert it Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7 https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! Lastheneia: Level 50 Technology Defender Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow Secondary Power Set: Assault Rifle Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Immob/Rchg(A), GrvAnc-Immob/EndRdx(3), GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(5), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg(9), GrvAnc-Hold%(9) Level 1: Burst -- Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7) Level 2: Glue Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 4: Slug -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11) Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25), Ksm-ToHit+(27), LucoftheG-Def(27) Level 8: Poison Gas Arrow -- FrtHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(A), FrtHyp-Plct%(13), FrtHyp-Acc/Rchg(13), FrtHyp-Sleep/Rchg(19), FrtHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(37) Level 10: Kick -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(21), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(23) Level 12: Acid Arrow -- ShlBrk-Acc/Rchg(A), ShlBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48) Level 14: Buckshot -- SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(15), FrcFdb-Rechg%(15), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), PstBls-Dam%(17) Level 16: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(19), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(25) Level 18: Super Speed -- WntGif-ResSlow(A) Level 20: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50) Level 24: Sniper Rifle -- SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(42), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43) Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- Ann-Dmg/Rchg(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(29), AirBrs-Dmg/Rchg(29), Ann-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Ann-ResDeb%(34) Level 28: Flamethrower -- PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(A), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(34), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(34), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(37), PstBls-Dam%(37) Level 30: Tactics -- RctRtc-ToHit(A), RctRtc-Pcptn(31), GssSynFr--Build%(36), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(36) Level 32: Tough -- GldArm-End/Res(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(33), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(33), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(33) Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40) Level 38: Full Auto -- SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(39), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(40) Level 41: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42) Level 44: M30 Grenade -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(45), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(45), FrcFdb-Rechg%(45), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), PstBls-Dam%(46) Level 47: Ignite -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(48), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(48), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(50), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(50) Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth(A) Level 1: Vigilance Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(5), Pnc-Heal/+End(46) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(3) Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve Level 0: Portal Jockey Level 0: Task Force Commander Level 0: The Atlas Medallion Level 50: Cardiac Radial Paragon Level 1: Quick Form ------------

I said even if we ignore that (as in, your IO slotting to resolve this penalty.) Also, if you are asking about SOs, are you stating their power's strength needs to not be as high due to having to slot more end reduction SOs than other classes? Is that the idea?

That's exactly why I specified SOs above. Even if we ignore that, it's still a penalty vs other ATs that can also benefit from those same IOs.

I assume there are really small attachment size limits unless you render it down to very low quality or keep it really short.

Yeah I didn't think so. It was never right in my eyes but hindsight they say is 20/20.

Beasts for sure, and there is also Gang War and Hell on Earth which are decent abilities I thought anyway.

NVM. Edit won't let me delete.

Actually they already toyed with Energy Melee changes on the closed beta server some years ago with tankers, and yes, it added some AOE mechanics to the set under certain conditions, that way you weren't required to benefit from it if you really wanted to be weaker by playing it the old way.

You mean if you keep it as 'unlisted' status on Youtube (not public) which also makes it so you cannot monetize? Only people with the direct link would be able to see it (like these forums?)

Well that's the thing: the end costs on everything for MMs is higher - sonic costs more on MM than any other AT just like every secondary for MM (and pools etc)

I addressed this in the OP - but also when did summons, training, and attacks become free? I actually addressed this twice with the secondaries bit.

This is even more reason to not have endurance penalties. I am positive that having a design doc for masterminds wouldn't say anything about making throwaway abilities they should never take on purpose. I tend to not take them myself (like most players I'd guess) however that may be partially due to the penalties.

My understanding is that you either want 4 pts of kb protection or 10 - the vast majority of the game content only needs the +4. You have 21 points of kb protection. You hit ED limits in Fireball by switching the damage purple to the kd proc, but it depends on how much you can get out of that vs the ED limit break: 124 damage vs 119 (before choice of Alpha.) A team will benefit more by going with Maneuvers over your personal Stealth plus the stealth won't actually hide you because you will be in melee range for Venomous even with Super Speed turned on. If you want to be stealthed in-between groups then you could also put the Celerity stealth proc in Super Speed as you have so much kb protection everywhere. You could drop Super Jump for just the default Alkaloid slot which can still be handy here and there - could put the absorb proc in that. Just some ideas.

Triage Beacon and Spirit Tree need much shorter cooldowns. I want them to stay as a place-able object but make the recharge much faster.

You mean the T1 pets?

Does this make sense in real-world play? Does the argument that Masterminds sit around not using endurance the majority of the time back from CoV's launch actually hold weight in today's game? It's not like a corruptor/controller have gobs of endurance if they just focus on keeping a team alive with their secondary spam, and since MMs can try to keep a team alive and their own pets too with their secondaries I wondered if any discussion can be had about them having to spend more endurance than any other archetype/class in the entire game for the same powers. Toggle-heavy sets like Sonic/Rad/Storm seems unsustainable when you consider it's supposed to be balanced around Single Origin Enhancements unless you forego enhancing anything beyond end cost. Pet summons and training are heavy end drains as well. Just curious what the general consensus is.

So endurance looks pretty bad on both builds - the 2nd build looks rough even with Cardiac (which also grants more resist.) I can't imagine using attacks a ton with so much recharge because of the endurance drain running all that. Recharge on a necro/sonic doesn't seem like it should be a priority. Would it be better to just dump all the protection procs on Soul Extraction? I've seen that done on Thugs/Demons and so on. Combat Jumping, Disruption Field, Sonic Dispersion, Maneuvers, Tactics, Sonic Repulsion, Dark Embrace, and the Hasten end drain is a lot. Then again I've argued the MM end penalties really don't make sense in real play. This sounds like a fun combo and it's different which I like - but it doesn't seem sustainable at least not in the 2nd build here.

Yeah no way would I skip a damage aura