TheAdjustor

I call B.S. It "Fixed" melee by breaking ranged pets and nerfing all the pets that gained improved damage from recharge boosts. That's right it wasn't just ranged mastermind pets he broke, he broke controller pets as well and nerfed melee damage pets like fire imps. Calling it a QOL issue that ranged pets would charge in and expire is also completely off base. While it may not have made my Bots/Dark unplayable it did take most of the fun out of it.

Either way it wasn't a fix.

You can thank Castle for this. It used to be before he "FIXED" if you slotted for a decent amount of recharge they wouldn't run into battle and cycle their ranged attacks.

I wasn't going to comment any further in this thread as every post draws more attention to a topic that should be taken out and shot, but this seems very much to have the right of it. If anything it winds up being an argument for nerfing all the melee sets. 500 dps for the very survivable melee characters is ridiculous. There's no risk to compensate. You take a look and the very best blaster results are barely cracking 500 and to do that they have nowhere near the survivability and have to give up most of what they do have to be in melee to do it.

It's kind of funny as fire has great damage good end usage and very fast activation but you are fine with that because that's it's niche. DM has great single target damage and the best survivability of any melee set is also ok. I could rattle off the facts that undercut your position but what good would it do ? You like other in the thread aren't open to them. I give Galaxy Brain this, he polarized this issue and made it raise enough smoke that it got noticed he will probably accomplish the goal of sickening people on the game and having wasted a lot of people's time. GG

You know other games have a sell all white (common) items ability. It wouldn't be a bad thing here.

What are you balancing against ? Fire is by far and away the most damaging of the blast sets and has been since day one(it's damage is actually understated as well since it is also one of the least resisted damage types both in pve and pvp). Should it be nerfed ? Anyway you get to the point, so far there has been no proof that an adjustment is even needed. All this thread has shown, is that some players will always prefer the metagame of screwing with other players and attempting moral projection and most people don't understand assuming the conclusion is not a valid form of argument.

Seems the simplest way to do this would be with a pool power similar to enflame that would let you add extra damage of a given type to your attacks.

Baseline damage is meaningless, it's the stuff of e-peen and to a lesser extent farming. It's been awhile but I seem to remember someone soloing two AVs at the same time according to the rules of scrapper challenge on live. The video may still be up, I think they used Katana or Dark (A very impressive thing either way), I doubt I could manage it. Should other sets be nerfed down to their level ? Admittedly I am biased. The more I look over this thread the more I think sets like dual blades, Street Justice, staff that force you to play mini games get their top performance need to be boosted.

Good start. I haven't tried the arc but it would need to have a good representative sample of enemy types. IIRC the most resisted types of damage in the game are S/L followed by energy. Don't hold me to this but I think Negative and fire are both barely resisted. Anything that doesn't represent this is an inherently biased test. (That's a problem with pylons that have 20% resistance to everything and no defense)

I am sorry but that's exactly wrong. It's also exactly how so many bad changes happened on live. Sets are holistic, they don't just provide damage, they also provide control and survivability. War Mace for example has an incredible amount of mitigation by tossing out stuns all over the place, Dark has -to hit and an incredible heal. The only reason to nerf a set is that it breaks the game not because people have pylon time envy. If this is to be a proper test it should be against Arachnos, Devouring Earth and Rularu. There is also the whole incarnate vs non incarnate as well in there. Incarnates by their very design took a 20 pound sledge hammer to the game broke in pieces and then started grinding the pieces to dust.

Have to disagree on that. It's a problem with the pylon test that shifts the test towards sets that make good use of procs. While there is still a benefit for heavily proccing out a set it's reduced as global damage bonus increases (as a percentage not in the absolute) The -res procs are also problematical in that they can only be applied at most once per enemy IIRC. So having them in a build would by nature overstate their effect. It's very had to quantify much the way secondary effects are. TW has a very nice +def ability that Pylon builds don't take advantage of, but can be very useful against enemies like Devouring earth of Rularu.

Oh because secondary effects don't count for anything ? You don't do much damage if you are not alive. Oh maybe I shouldn't do it, there is no limit to envy and I can easily see calls for dark melee to be nerfed because it's far more survivable than anything else.

Everybody I know farms at least a little. FOTM tables say the most popular combination is a spines fire brute. Seeing as it's logical that for every person that has a dedicated farmer has other characters they farm for, I would have to see evidence before accepting what on its face seems an assumption refuted by what information we do have.

Agreed, but this whole thing is so nuts it's not funny. The most profitable farmer I had on live was an Arch/Ment blaster that could clear maps faster than anything else that was even mentioned. (if there was something it still hasn't gone public). Big caveat though, those were -1x8 maps with no bosses. Back then purple recipe drops were far and away the most valuable results of kills , and while archery has pathetic single target damage and a nuke with it's own problems was able to do the job via leveraging the AOE potential of the combination. Blasters in general do/did very well against -1 content but lets face it range is their defense only to the extent they have set bonuses for it and they can kill things before they get close. The point is that you never saw people clamoring for a nerf of blasters because so many people had tried them and were aware of the difficulties in playing them that aren't captured in tables. Hell everybody going oh look at the table at how much damage TW does, completely ignores the type of damage it does, which is S/L the most resisted type of damage in the game. Incidentally something the pylon testing obscures.

Not to add more fuel to this dumpster fire of a thread, but this is what's known as biasing a testing procedure. It's already known that TW isn't top tier on clearing large maps, it's especially not so pre incarnate because it sucks end. So what do you do if you want to make a case for nerfing TW ? You remove the cases where it's bad, you also fail to adjust for the amount of investment the build requires to be good.

I had to redo mine as well

Don't know if this will be of any use to you. Here's my Archery/TA build. Relevant stats 45.1 %def S/L 55.3 %def Energy 44.6 %def Negative 47.1 %def Ranged 172.5 % global Recharge +16% to hit +28.5 % damage http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1504&c=669&a=1338&f=HEX&dc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

Raises a really good point. Sets like PSI, TW, and DB that require more attention and skill to play well should do much better when played well. The 123,123,123,123 sets have their place but they shouldn't be top performers.

We actually don't know that's just what was reported in the pylon thread which seems to be the basis of this thread. And there is the fact that there is something like a 40% variance in the DPS output between TW players in that thread demonstrating once again its numbers need to be taken with a reallllly big grain of salt.

Looks up at the rest of this thread. Otay

Probably /Storm corruptors oh I forgot to include Masterminds and Corruptors in this discussion, I think that bumps WM down to number 5 and takes melee damage completely out of the equation. Perhaps they all should be nerfed.

War Mace, has the easiest attack chain in the game and is currently number 2 for ST damage, Same holds for broadsword, Super Strength has a near permanent +to hit bonus and some of the best AOE and control in the game. Seems like they all should be nerfed. Oh and claws it's just too fast.

Nerf Herding and would be moderators, both were verboten on the live forums with good reason, probably some of the better decisions made by the people running them. That isn't a choice nor is it a minigame, And just how is that different from any other AT that has AOE damage ? You're reaching and trying to white knight, and it's rather obvious. Sorry I don't have the oracular ability or arrogance to think I can discern the entirety of a set without playing it. I would recommend going to test rolling a TW/BIO and then going at a +4x8 map and reporting your results (note that would be your results not other people's) and then tell us just how OP it is. But you seem a little too invested to do that.

Dude, your in a hole stop digging. You think controllers don't open with controls brutes don't hit things or stalkers don't open out of hide ? These aren't any more or less of a minigame than optimizing a scrapper's rotation and watching the bar for picking attacks. Sigh, The attacks are slow they root you in place, the set is an end hog, raw DPS doesn't cover the prologue of the story let alone the whole story. The fact that you say things like the above is a good argument for getting rid of the pylon thread as too many people read it but don't properly understand and get butt hurt from it. Best example "added recharge, which in today's game is not that hard to achieve". No it's not hard you just have to trade other things to get it, which goes back to the why raw DPS and the pylon thread are bad. Tried them out with those Raw DPS charts ehh ? It's pretty obvious you haven't done any objective testing of this. My main is Claws/EA Brute, tell me how TW/BIO has soured my abilitiy to solo against Reichsman and his entire room of never ending council spawn. Oh but that would be a tradeoff kind of like trade offs made to get TW enough recharge to work properly. Either way I have no doubt you will neither change your mind nor present actual data of how sets compare on actual mission completion, leveling rate or even clearing defeat alls. Until you do there is no substance to your position except "TW MAKES ME FEEL BAD".