Sunsette

Frankly, I don't give a damn if every attack in the set becomes 100% knockback as long as the randomness is addressed, damage is addressed, and the sameyness of all the attacks is addressed. Whatever form that solution takes is OK with me. I can live with knockback or knockdown as long as I can count on it happening and plan accordingly. I don't think it'd be the best solution because that would essentially make EB Sents anathema for many leveling groups, but it'd be an improvement on the whole to soloing and high level groups. Probably a better solution is for some attacks to be high KB and some to be KD or some other mixture, but I was trying to keep the offered solutions simple.

What you call a narrow focus on levels 6 and 50 I would say accurately describes more like levels 6 to mid-30s or 40s and then again at 50. I don't really think feel comfortable, personally speaking, assuming IOs with weird effects before then. People have to go diving to find out things like that exist, they have to make sure that they have everything else they want first out of the way, they have to either understand the mechanics or be willing to make a leap of faith purchase, and they have to be willing to part with 2 to 4 million influence in order to make it work. The last few times I've seen Chance for Recharge as a proc show up on reddit for discussion, a lot of people discounted it as meh even while they were leveling. My EB character was my first character on HC, I found out about the proc around level 20, but it wasn't until the 40s I could afford it. IO taxes are not simply an optimization cost, they're a barrier to gameplay for new or casual players, and while I have Stockholm Syndrome with the game of optimization, I think selling a power set's strengths on two IOs that are not dirt cheap is a tacit admission that the set has very serious problems. It's especially odd to include them in a look at leveling as a result imo. If there is any time that the effects of an IO on gameplay should be considered primarily a happy accident, I would think it is the stage when people have the least capital to spend on IOs and their slots and powers are most transient, discouraging heavy optimization considerations. I went through a lot of content with this EB character and basically everything newer than Croatoa that I did rocked me pretty hard in a way my other characters doing the same content didn't. I freely admit I have a bias in that I strongly prefer to level up on Gold-side, which is very good at exposing player and powerset flaws, but I still felt it in my 40s and not long after reaching 50. But now we're arguing a matter of degree and I'm quite tired; I appreciate that you were willing to let me explain myself. Thank you.

Look at my signature, the thing linked there. Do you think that I wrote all... 27,000 or whatever words over about 40 hours, and that I'd never tried Sudden Acceleration or Overwhelming Force? I did not give up on the character because Energy Torrent is bad. I gave up on Energy Torrent because Energy Torrent is bad; I gave up on the character because the entirety of Energy Blast, as a Sentinel set, is bad except for Nova and Power Push. Look, there's two prongs to this analysis, what makes Energy Torrent a mediocre power for leveling, and what makes Energy Torrent a bad power at 50. For leveling: - The IO tax is -really- hefty here considering Energy Torrent is a level 6 power and your first few slots pretty much have to go into damage, accuracy, and endurance almost immediately, in roughly that order. - It's not the easiest power to aim at its native 40' 40° without an AoE immob, which you don't get access to for a while. At 50: - It's not worth the repositioning time. Nova is the best attack in the set and I have it up roughly every 20 seconds, while Explosive Blast is agnostic to my positioning. Because Nova is basically guaranteed to give -res or recharge, it's your best opening attack (following an AoE immob if necessary) and most Sent secondaries can survive the alpha if properly built. - If you don't have a source of AoE immob, aiming a cone can still be a crapshoot. - If you do have a source of AoE immob, you start running into power selection problems, because you can only take so many powers. - The AoE immob lets you get away with five-slotting Nova with a set and giving it a good proc in its sixth slot rather than KB to KD. - When you absolutely need actual knockback in a beneficial way (like juggling a boss mob), most of the dangerous mobs not called sappers are bosses, meaning the AoE immob doesn't make them KB immune, and knocking back a single foe at 50 isn't a problem anymore because your range is about 76 feet or better usually thanks to ATOs. - But then your build is half about negating your powerset's entire theme, and yet, I'm very effective as Energy Sents go, which says that the knockback doesn't actually add that much on most enemies. Yes, you can pay an IO tax to make your knockbacks less destructive, but since only Power Push and Nova are guaranteed KBs, you're not actually going to be reliably knocking anyone down outside of those. There is no IO to make the KBs happen more often. It is hilarious the number of times I've just needed ONE of my ST attacks that was not Power Push to also land a KB to prevent us from dealing with double moments of glory Paragon Protectors or Fake Nems, and yet they do not. Then they go and knockback someone I didn't care about. Thanks! I actually use and have used FF Chance for Recharge in my builds, as I've alluded earlier in this thread. But it's competing with vital six slots for defense bonuses, five slots for recharge bonuses, and it's really not that hard to get extremely high global recharge such that it's not adding much to my AoE rotation. The only thing I've found it beneficial for past early 50 is making it easier to get my frankenslotted ST attack into rotation more often Which isn't for nothing! It's about a 5 DPS increase on its own in ST. But it virtually does nothing for my AoE DPS as recharge is already so high, and Sent doesn't have a lot of ultra long cooldowns which really appreciate the extra time savings. Last I checked, in practice FF only cuts off about 1 or 2 seconds on my up-time of Aim/Nova, which I've calculated to be about a 3 or 4% damage increase, which is marginal against the damage increases offered by Annihilation or Fury of the Gladiator competing for a sixth slot, and not worth breaking the security of having an always on +10% rech from set bonuses, preventing me from breaking a five-set bonus. If you've got low S/L D from your secondary, it's going to be difficult (though not impossible) to resist putting six-slotted obliteration in Nova, and if you're patching a Psi hole, Scirocco's. (Fortunately, there's really not a lot you want a six-slot bonus for in Targeted AoEs, so if you can afford to get both EB and ET, then it can make sense there, though I have to say I wasn't impressed the times I did try EB/ET/Nova as a build.) In summary, it is not that Energy Blast scatters opponents, therefore it is bad; it is that Energy Blast at its worst scatters opponents (which is bad) and at its best, you're taxing yourself with IOs and powers to reduce the majority of set's rider effects, while the set's actual damage in all respects is bad. It's a disadvantage or heavily muted mild advantage in very specific situations, while other sets have a niche that they rock comfortably. I point out the scattering not because I'm incapable of thinking of a way to mitigate it, but because we must include both these forms of mitigation and the fact that they are required in the analysis.

Congratulations on picking one of the generally agreed-to-be-quite-strong primaries that has as its entire schtick 'being psuedo-tanky'. At no point did I say a single pull, and in fact once I had been at level cap for a while, my preferred strategy with the extremely tanky Energy Aura was to run in, AoE immob, Nova, and facetank, except I did so little damage that I didn't really keep much aggro past a few seconds on the alpha generally speaking, barring a weak group. However, this strategy doesn't really work in content that's actually dangerous enough to you that you want the knockback as damage mitigation when you're leveling, which is the entire point. If your secondary is so well developed that you or your team don't need the knockback as damage mitigation, it's really not helping you at all. On my reroll, I've already been running into +3x8 groups and taking them down with some effort; it's not a Brute, but it does feel pretty close to a scrapper. I don't just care about the numbers, I have already rerolled, the reroll is already almost to 50, and I didn't reroll fire (the highest damage Sent primary) or bio (the single best Sent secondary) because I actually care about concept quite a lot, thanks, and neither fit concept.

I am glad you're enjoying your character, and I am very, very glad that my guide has been helpful. :) I've remade my main character as a different powerset, but I miss the oh-so satisfying CRACK that accompanies Energy Blast attacks hitting multiple targets. As far as look and feel goes, Energy Blast is an amazing set, and that counts for a lot. I don't necessarily want to be the best (though I'd hardly mind) but in endgame I frequently found myself in situations feeling like there was no situation where I shined -- I couldn't ever turn the tide of a battle gone bad, I just pulled my own weight at all times, and I pulled that weight by basically being super on top of my game. It's a little disheartening for me to see my character as polished as can be and fighting to contribute half as much as a relatively fresh 50+1 with a better powerset combo. Likewise when people are dying around me and I'm absolutely not dying, but I can't kill fast enough or knockback hard enough to save them. Everyone draws the line for their own enjoyment in a different place, and that's okay -- it's more than okay, it's good and it's healthy.

Thanks so much for your continued research. I'm curious, can you confirm/deny that there's an ICD on Force Feedback? I see the stacked proc and I'[ve observed that fact myself, but the reddit thread on PPM suggested there was a cooldown on how often it can activate aside from stacking.

1) Knockback isn't a status that is inherently good. When you can use it constructively shape a battlefield to your advantage, it is good; when it is used in a way that is actively harmful in your damage output vs. damage taken ratio, it is bad. It's not a simple binary on/off category the way virtually every other debuff is. This is because there are three components to a knockback: the ragdoll animation (unquestionably good), the repositioning factor (frequently scorned), and the brief immunity to further repositions (good if you can plan around it, bad if you weren't expecting to knock and followed it up with Power Push, which is the only fast surefire knock in the set.) I am not going to debate a point that is fairly evident. 2) I did not say 'knockback is bad'. I said that >constant random< knockback is bad, and doesn't synergize with the set's larger design or the archetype's. I stand by this point. 3) To elaborate, the problem with Energy Torrent is not that it knocks back. It's that it only knocks back about half of the time on a per-target basis after the forced 5% minimum miss chance, meaning it spreads targets badly, and the damage is nothing to write home about. This is in addition to it being a 6-target cone on Sentinels and the fact that Sentinels have low range and cones already demand positioning and the best attack in the set is a PBAoE. Energy Torrent is literally the reason I chose this AT as I fell in love with the visuals of Energy Torrent on my Scrapper, and I had to come to the hard truth after a lot of optimizing and trial and error that it is actually counterproductive to the set. I did not drop it lightly and spent a lot of money trying new configurations to make it work as I'm not actually fond of Nova visually. I am snipping the rest of my comment for now -- I will briefly note that Force Feedback is generally not as great of a pick as it seems at casual glance and I can go into this in more detail if you'd like -- for the sake of not looking like an argumentative jerk as we mostly agree, but I am getting very frustrated at this point in this thread with people suggesting I've made more arguments with much more absoluteness than I have.

I find blue-side much more samey than red, personally, and I much prefer blue to red. I can see where they're coming from, though -- while the changes are often subtle, there is more of an attempt to vary the 'mood' of blue zones. Red zones tend to vary landmarks much more but the mood is mostly the same. It depends on how you read zones primarily.

You're right that it's not the most pressing of issues, as I think most people who are already deeply invested in this game and are willing to try out Energy Blast are willing to accept it requires a bit of work. (That's where I was, I just underestimated the amount of work needed for the results.) But it is one dear to me, so I hope it is addressed.

All of this discussion makes me wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to entirely discard the notion of prerequisite powers for the travel pools. Would it really break anything to be able to take any of them in any order you choose?

ATTUNED IS SO MUCH PRETTIER, WHY CAN'T WE BOOST ATTUNED ;w;

I have to object to the notion that hover is bad for melee builds. I think that's true at low levels or if you have a power that requires being on the ground, which affects some but not all melee builds; that's about it. Prestige Jump Jets allow you full speed in hover for a button press, are affected by global recharge, and you get two of them. That's faster and more convenient movement than anything else. Afterburner itself is a useful panic button. While their usages vary in different builds, all of the opening powers in flight are good. I will admit that if you're only going one-deep that standard flight is outclassed by Mystic Flight, yes. If I have a complaint about afterburner, it's that it's not an auto power, because toggling it on can be clunky; I wouldn't mind an added autopower version of afterburner that you could choose to take instead of the toggle that grants Fly its benefits natively. I agree that it's counterintuitive that you need another power to improve the speed of fly, but it's a difficult problem to alleviate, and I don't think it's worth the effort to alleviate it when I just don't agree at all that it's unbalanced. Flight + AB practically reaches the same straight line speed as Super Speed and Hover is better than SS and rivals CJ for in-combat maneuvering. This is a strong pool.

Yes, I mix attuned (non-level dependent effects like procs) and unattuned (boosted, usually) all the time. It works fine.

I don't think it's a good idea. The forced 5% miss rate makes systems of attack that depend on chaining a bit iffy -- we already have multiple mechanics that require us to ramp up. Given a median attack time of roughly 2 seconds, it'll take ten seconds for this ramping system to stack up to where it already is -- essentially meaning we kill mooks a lot slower. It's pretty much just an EB/AV killing tool at that point and I think we'd need to change our kits a bit if we're going to be that hard focused on EBs and AVs.

Huh. Thanks for that code dissection, jack.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a game where travel powers are basically irrelevant cosmetic conveniences to get to the combat, but there are a lot of games already where the only control players realistically have on their movement speeds is cosmetic; I don't want CoH to be one of them. I appreciate the idea of being able to sacrifice a little bit of something and getting a bit more speed in return, even if I think some of the travel pools could be tweaked upwards to improve them a bit.

just want to note that alpha slot recharge reduces the chance of any proc IO occurring, if you are reliant on proc IOs and/or you already have high global recharge, may wish to stay away.

So I tested that out -- while they're active if you're not already using a flight power, they don't increase flight speed at all but your vertical movement is consistent with your jumping speed prior, which suggests to me that they are coded as jump internally.

Musculature is generally your best bet for the Alpha. Judgement, Pyronic and Ionic are probably the two best options for a ranged sent and you can recolor Pyronic to look icy. Mighty might work more for the water theme a little but is very slow animating. Cryonic is a long-ass cone, not a fan. Void is another possible theme choice. There are no really bad judgments. Reactive, Degenerative, or Diamagnetic for the Interface. Lore, best option is usually Longbow Core, but any Core pet is fine. Radial pets are trickier and mostly for soloing if your Core pet gets killed too much. Destiny: Barrier if you're below def cap on S/L/E/Psi and you care about those, or Ageless Core if you're having Endurance troubles. Hybrid: Assault Radial.

It really depends. You have to actually look at how much the power gives to begin with and compare to your AT's natural recovery rate, as well as consider your level. For example, Perf Shifter is about equal to 0.25/s End, and a single 50+5 End Mod in Sentinel Quick Recovery grants 0.27/s End, meaning that at the end, the 50+5 is better but at lower levels before that, the Perf Shifter proc may be superior.

Yeah, I can see that. To the person doing the teleporting, it was as you say. To anyone ELSE, though? You'd disappear from one spot, and a few seconds later, reappear somewhere else. In about as much time, total, as a CoX teleport, too; CO had you disappear faster, then STAY disappeared longer. Really, it's a matter of interface and control. In a single player game (e.g. Dishonored) you can have the whole game stop while you pick your target. In a multiplayer game, that just doesn't work. The main issue with the CO teleport, which was indeed thematically quite cool, was that it was very slow for a teleport imo. But in general high speeds is something hard to do because of graphical fidelity and net speed concerns.

That's actually a pretty clever conceptual workaround.

I would be curious as to your thoughts on the pro/con of EA vs Invuln for a 'tough as possible' BR Sentinel. Ive got an EA Sentinel (and I find Sentinel EA to be amazeballs) but as I look at the chart, I -also- find Sentinel Invuln to be very impressive. Invuln is possibly tougher in most content but is a lot less forgiving of build preferences for flavor. The Sent scale is just enough lower that EA has it tough getting all the way up to softcap on all major defs, but doesn't have to care about IO bonuses for S/L, for example; enough will fall into its lap with only minor tweaking. This also means it's a little easier getting its Psi D up thanks to this flexibility in IO slotting. Invuln can comfortably cap that S/L resistance so it's not afraid to stand next to Bobcat, but it's going to have to make choices about whether it wants to laugh at most incarnate enemies (softcapping energy too) or arachnos (getting psi respectable or softcapped).

yeah, marcussmythe has it in one pretty much. I actually am in the process of leveling a BR/EA Sent right now and it has been a radical experience -- I'm leveling through Praetoria (as I did on my EB/EA Sentinel -- it's actually a reroll of that character) and I'd like to add that BR Sent got a buff to its AoE at a very slight cost to its ST output. I hardly ever die and I've had multiple "HOW DID I SURVIVE THAT, THAT'S AMAZING" moments that have been just pure gold.

IP is one zone -- there's only a handful that are very large to begin with, and some of them are very inhibitive to the ground. Cannot say no to that idea emphatically enough; that's an example of convenience bleeding into characters losing their identity as characters.