Underfyre

Nevermind, putting the numbers in my spreadsheet and updating the rotation to a Shout - Shriek - Scream - Shriek rotation still results in a lower average DPS, even throwing in a bonus -25% res from Corrosive Enzymes and the 82.5% damage boost from Overgrowth. And since the T9 cooldwon is 55 seconds longer (or 28ish seconds versus 42ish seconds when enhanced) than a Sentinels, the AOE is also going to suffer. See, that's why I make these spreadsheets. To hamfist numbers and objectively say one thing is better than another without actually playing them lol.

Defender does -20% res per attack, this AT does 9.6%. It works okay here, but it's not enough to dredge this AT up from the depths. Shriek per class: Sentinel = 44.38 * (1 + 9.6% + 5%) = 50.86 (inherent adds 5% res) Defender = 30.36 * (1 + 20%) * (1 + 30%) = 47.36 (solo inherent adds 30% to damage) lets look at the follow up attack, Shout: Sentinel = 112 * (1 + 9.6% + 9.6% + 5%) = 139.1 Defender = 76.64 * (1 + 20% +20%) * (1 + 30%) = 139.49 Sentinel = 189.96 Defender = 186.85 You could add a third attack to this, but the bonus for Shriek only lasts 5 seconds, If you used Scream instead it lasts 7 seconds. And let's face it, a Defender may have more to do than spam and attack chain. But whatever, let's throw Scream in there. Because Screech is not a viable damaging attack on a Defender apparently. Sentinel = 69.7 * (1 + 9.6% + 9.6% + 9.6% + 5%) = 93.26 Defender = 47.7 * (1 + 20% +20% + 20%) * (1 + 30%) = 99.22 Sentinel = 283.22 Defender = 286.10 So assuming baseline values, eventually a Defender will pull ahead because their resistance debuff is allowing for an additional 26.2% damage, which is also playing against their 30% damage bonus, essentially allowing for 200% damage. So now I'm mildly intrigued by a Nature/Sonic Offender....

Damage * %Damage * %Res. If you're debuffing by 60%, you're allowing for essentially more than 60% more damage to be done.

Back in launch everyone wanted a bubble defender. Sets and IOs weren't there to massively inflate defense numbers, so having a bubble there to basically max out your defense was a necessity. But then you also wanted an empathy healer to keep everyone standing through streak-breakers and buffing the DPS. The proliferation of defense bonuses in sets has made needing a healer less and less of a concern. So bubbles are almost entirely unnecessary, and the empathy is reduced to patch heals and buff bot. So yes, force multiplier at this point, whether it be by reducing resistance/defense, increasing damage, or flooring regen.

I don't know if anyone cares, which I'm sure you don't, but adding in drop downs for enhancements isn't extremely feasible it seems. I have to point to the available sets, which then points to the individual enhancements in the set, then further grab each bonus for that enhancement. That took an entire day to figure out. In order to expand that to more than just a single ability I would have to recreate the process for every single ability in every single page, which is simply not worth the effort to save people from having to type in some numbers they fetched from Mid's. I could make it so it is just a single page with drop downs for each main instead of separate pages, but then the only difference between this sheet and Mid's would be the ability to see the DPS from a rotation and have the correct numbers used. So now I guess I'll move on to trying to implement Mob resistances.

Well let's look at the math. I'm just going to type this out as I go, so I have no idea what the results will be. Other sets have Aim, DP has Ammo swap, so instead of a 50% damage boost, they have what is essentially a permanent damage increase from their incendiary ammo. This increases half of their damage by 75% on the low end, and 142% (T9) on the high end. Overall for the T9, this equates to a 71% damage when accounting for the total. For the purpose of using Aim right before activating your T9, yeah, a 71% boost is obviously better than a 50% boost. What Aim also has going for it is the availability of the Gaussian proc. You have to go to ridiculous lengths to make its proc chance anything but 90%, so it is essentially guaranteed to go off when you use Aim. So in this instance the T9 with Aim + Gaussian has a boost of 130%. So assuming you have Gaussian's in Aim, Aim wins. If not, DP wins. Then you have to look at the average up-time of Aim, which will be its boost multiplied by its duration divided by its cooldown. I don't know about you all, but at the highest ends of slotting with permahasten, you'll most likely be looking at around a 27-29 second recharge. So that's (50% * 10 / 27) = 18.52%. So that's another (80% * 5.25 / 27 * 90%) = 14% with Gaussian for a total of 32.52% average up time. Remember these are only good for 10/5.25 seconds every 27 seconds. Incendiary Ammo is always active, increasing damage by between 23% and 35%, not including the T9 at 71% So at the end of the day, it looks like not having Aim isn't really a hindrance to DP. All of the abilities have above a 100% base hit chance, and Incendiary Ammo is pretty similar to the effects of having Aim. aim isn't the only place to store Gaussian's either, although it is really the most convenient place with regards to triggering it exactly when you want to. So technically if you put Guassian's in Tactics or a secondary ability like Invincible DP would actually come out ahead.

So quick test cuz I was curious. Each individual vine that spawns in Carrion Creepers is seemingly capable of triggering a damaging proc. This, however, is not a damaging proc. This a buff proc that applies to you the caster. Therefor it only has a chance to proc your initial cast of Carrion Creepers. Thought I was being clever for a second there.

If we're being honest, ice isn't that great for AOE damage either. Ice Storm is a 94 damage base that takes 15 seconds to deliver it's entire damage versus DPs Bullet Rain that does 70 damage (with incendiary ammo) in 1 second on a recharge that can be brought down to 9 seconds with just 2 IOs, so not even considering all the global recharge you can amass. Comparing the T9s isn't really necessary since they're both on a 90 second recharge, but Blizzard does 180 damage and Hail of Bullets does 240 damage.

You seem to be overlooking the fact the Dehydrate can be stacked high with procs and a respectably high 65% proc chance. Use Dehydrate to heal? Nah. Use it to kill.

Yes, it does do more damage baseline than a lot of the other T9s, but this is balanced by the fact that Water's build up power only gives a 25% boost to damage instead of 50% like every other set.

My dream was to some day, draw out an orange to pin this thread lol And maybe get Sunsette to come back and update the Guide at the top with all the new reviews since she's left.

Out of curiosity, I changed the Fire Blast set from Fire Mastery to Psionic Mastery and slotted it like it is in the DP build. Then fixed its rotations. It caught up slightly, but it didn't pass it. The other issue is that all the sets are sharing the haste percentages from the Buffs sheet. I have yet to be able to use the same exact set bonuses across power sets and that is definitely something I need to migrate into each sheet separately. But that's also something I said I needed to do on the sheet itself in the welcome page. That's just simply is not a quick thing to fix. I have to change cell references in literally every single power in every single sheet. You all do know that point of this spreadsheet isn't to use my numbers, right? There are literally THOUSANDS of variables that can changed in this sheet. To think that my half-assed slotting on some of the sheets is the end-all-be-all of what that set is capable of is quite a lofty ideal. The idea is for someone to make a copy in their Google Drive and use it as a platform to gauge what their build is theoretically capable of. If they find a much better slotting than what I have in there, they can send it my way and I can put the build in the master sheet so other people don't run into the problem you did thinking that this is some how the only way to build a set and see how little damage it will do.

Well rather than come here and tell me how months of my work is wrong, make your own, better spreadsheet since you clearly know more about math, statistics and spreadsheets than I do.

1) Please elaborate on "standardized builds." I have never once seen two people build the same exact way. Pretending that Epic attacks aren't available when comparing between builds is going to skew data more than making them available. I've already said why procs should be present. As for attack chains, a lot of attack chains would rather pause for 0.2 seconds for an ability to refresh than just keep spamming whatever is up. That's a reasonable argument. I, however, don't have the spreadsheet know-how to implement something like that. 2-3) You know that everything about the game is based on random numbers, right? You have between a 5% and 95% chance to hit a mob and a dice is rolled for every. single. attack. A spreadsheet like this operates between now and infinity. If I have a 95% chance to hit with an ability doing 100 damage, and you do a parse of 100 attacks, you will more than likely come up with a number around 9500. Will it be exactly 9500? Probably not. But it will be really close. Extend that to 1000 attacks, you'll probably edge closer to 95000. 4) The only bias in this sheet is the fact that it's for Sentinels only. There were times when I really wanted to see if modeling something would give me a result that would beat Fire Blast, such as factoring in the -res debuffs from sonic just to find out that that ain't it. Actually, one bias I'm working on is that I have the up-time of Hybrid Assault Core factored into its effect, where I don't have it factored into the Radial, which technically it would be doing half of its damage since it's up for half the time (up 120 seconds, down 120 seconds). It's a "quick" fix that I have to apply to every sheet, which makes nothing quick, but I'll probably be doing it soon. At the end of the day, if you don't like it, don't use it.

Well, the welcome page BOLDLY says to take rankings with a grain of salt. Some sets I have built, others I have not. The presence of Epic pools in the #1 set is absolutely muddling its number. At this point I'm considering removing it, or at least hiding it and making people find it. You know you can make a copy of this and update the numbers to fit your sets right? The bar is set with DP/DA/Psi. Go ahead and beat it. Procs are an averaged number and they will play a role in the viability of one power against another. If a proc is doing 71.75 damage 56% of the time, it's going to average 40.18 damage average of a long enough time span. That's how these kinds of sheets work. Now look at Abyssal Gaze. It does 112 damage base. Stacked with procs it will do 541 damage. Left at the devices of just enhancements it wouldn't even do half of that. Procs play a vital role in the damage output of some sets. Regardless of this, Dark is still doing middling damage even after I build it up. I'm sure I could give it Dominate and pad its ST damage, but it's already weak AOE damage would suffer even more so it'd stay in the middle anyway. Some sets aren't destined to sit on top. One thing that is not considered is mob resistance. A set like Dual Pistols may suffer a bit losing up to 25% of its damage to Lethal resistance. But as it is, everything in the sheet is on an even playing field, even if the game is not.

So I tend to make my Sentinel builds the same way, over and over. This set goes in this tier of attack, this set in that one. Generally the same results regardless of the sets involved. Seeing that Adrenal Booster increases both damage and recharge (and secondary effects) made me curious. So I'm forgoing the Epic pools for that instead. With this build it averages 11.41% recharge (147 second recharge if you include Ageless and Hasten) and a 10.85% damage boost. Meltdown provides an average of 15.79% damage boost plus its added resistances. So what about y'all? What would you do differently? Also, I had to edit Ground Zero to allow Achilles, and edit Adrenal Booster to show the +rch. Dunno if that will cause issues for anyone, but I'm sure it will. | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1473;718;1436;HEX;| |78DA65945B4F135110C767BB0BB5E50E8516DA72152C6D292D60BC044388A00F826| |9A8F1B559DA63592DBB4DDB0778F41B788D5F41BC25FA0D7C178D6F5E1F7C52B96A| |BCA04F75F6CCD890F4A49BDFF63F336766CE6517D7E61A9F9CBF3E034AF3D9BC5E2| |AA553C22C1BA6C8BB2F89CC8A69E5ADDC3AD8C3894FE0BF31BDA49B39918DA52CD3| |C8A467CB653D73ADBF6A9C1357845912B1253D6BE865C332D3B3C555AB084D49CBC| |AC7CE19B915F4CBB9E5BF544188AC47BECEAF1544D158C5596410890B42CF8A6269| |C528A4974559EF9E2F1899583553B264A417F5525914D77D58DF303E9E10F0A8D4C| |17D0D20A1816383F980A83D643E22D63F266ED9B18A8C55E1A78A9A0BEA7F118FFC| |61FE257686D815F328130EA9B98F33A7888D93CC130E397FF36755F2E928804A794| |0FD6DE7764217CE57C7F3D54529AE39466C1D67C689ED09878C698FAA92DE10ED0F| |C62ACE08C81C9E0DCAB98D3617F7E4E29E3CDC5317F7D4754075F9D0B7816B68784| |16BE2DB64BE24F6BC62BE26063E51EC0EC636719E26CE13E03CBD074CCEF71D7D5B| |384FCB17D2FABF32B798DBC4811DE62E51C146DB38B6ED06D5307E93798B98B8CDB| |CC3BC4B7C86EBDEC1EBDE3106723E15E7EB244DE9F4E24B50838109EA49439B976C| |9AB75591FE431EA61D843E6317C877EC07B1077BEBE6FABADF50DEA1B7C4A3EF98E| |F991F88231F89BB18EBA758CD1FA07E4782C463BDCC3E663F71106B0C72FD41DEFB| |5EA61FE7EBE35AFA4ED2D9193DC53CCD9C2686CFD07909CF501F7B183BC8B183D3F| |6074085F026F944F71C729DA240BE511FAFC173D43B34D80FD15DB46B1AE65A4698| |17C30074452B10BA47E738895A84F725E2222D855A8CFB8A4568AFC699CB688BB37| |F7C80B48056BDF7F8C3015747EDDB6CEF45A512AEB1C66B94448D3259A34CD5280B| |354A52AB7E1940918AAB15EC959295ECBAD1CAB52BF20C3A61FFB076D93E834ED83| |BAC85C8EFDB618DD7EE1F39D1F45D| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Well it only has 4 damaging procs available, so probably the 4 damaging procs available.

The problem with the Pool powers that I see after playing with numbers for a while is that not all things are equal. If you look at Char, you'll see that its source is an 8 second cooldown, but when transferred to the Sentinel pool, it got bumped up to 32 seconds. Netherworld grasp, 32 seconds. Block of Ice, 32 seconds. Paralyzing Dart, 32 seconds. Dominate? 16 seconds. Almost every ST Hold in the pools got bumped up for an 8 second recharge to a 32 second recharge but 2; Dominate and Paralyzing Jolt. Paralyzing Jolt technically has no parallel in other sets, it's closest would be Tesla Cage. This sole fact is what makes people that are chasing damage take Psi for Dominate. The distinguishing difference between it and Paralyzing Jolt is that Paralyzing Jolt has nearly double the activation time. Basically what I'm saying is that all the pool power recharges need to be standardized. Probably more towards the x2 side instead if the x4 side. Hell, I'm taking a look at source abilities at random it seems like most of the are x2, but then, out of nowhere, one will be x4. Hell, Havoc Punch is x4.33, the hell is that about? You could argue that it has the highest DPA of all the ST MELEE abilities, but I dunno about that egregious of a recharge penalty.

Most of us essentially said that when this poll was initiated.

It's not that you're reading Mid's improperly, it's that Mid's has the wrong numbers for most everything. I went through and fixed them all on my computer, but downloading the new unofficial update refs for it reset them all to the same wrong numbers it had before and I don't have it in me to do that all over again for no reason. You'd think they would have fixed those numbers, but you'd be wrong.

Disappeared for a spell to play on Project 1999. Level 35 has sapped my desire to play for now, damn hell levels. Anyway, some minor changes and 1.3.4 is up.

Actually I was mistaken on 3. The Jet Packs increase Hover to Fly speed, not Fly to Afterburner speed.

I was going to hop on the beta servers and poke around, but they're offline atm. Anyway, what I was going to do was get a real number to work with, but it's not super necessary. Here's the numbers we're working with: 50% base hit chance. 95% is max avoidance, which is why everyone says 45%. You may or may not have known that. Let's assume mobs are hitting for a bonkers number like 1000 dps for every type. Type Resist Defense Damage Taken S/L 62.4% 95% 376 18.8 E 38.3% 80% 617 123.4 N 60.4% 80% 396 79.2 F/C 58.3% 75% 417 104.25 T 33.8% 0% 662 297.9 P 66.9% 75% 331 82.75 Overall damage taken: 810.55 I measure damage taken against how often I'm going to be hit to get a feel for how well defenses are going to work. I'm not going to post the table for your first build, but it's number was a higher 981.57. By shifting from maxing out resists to padding in more defense, you've effectively lowered your damage taken over time. Do you really need to know this for every damage type? Probably not, but as a numbers man it's helped me out a bit to know where adding more resist is more effective than adding in more defense, or vice versa.

I'm about to go to bed, but the first concern I have is that you've maxed resistance on S/L/F/C/P, but you have middling defense in your weakest resistances, E/N. I mean, all your defenses are middling, but I'm mostly concerned on the parts where you can't take the punch. But I dunno, I've been out of the game for a spell. Take the build to the beta server and see how it fairs.

If the damage didn't exist before the Sentinel came along, then the damage can be counted as the Sentinel's damage. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.