WindDemon21

Stun breaks free. (Toggles rech already) cast time of toggle.. even rad now can get ef and ri out in 3 seconds, with ri being the most important generally in 1.5s, not 5. Other factors can play, not always a useful attack to do instead. You have to look at the lowest possible need too when averaging. Given max that toggle time should be at 1.5s, lets say the average is 2, still 3 seconds (with one being applied by 1.5s already in use) There are yet even other detrimental factors like the toggled enemy moving or dying etc. 5 seconds is too long.

It's actually a nerf in most but a few circumstances even with the tradeoff at 5s especially for those that NEED those toggles on and don't have a better click power to use, which aren't as affected as it is now anyway. The idea is there, but 5s is still too long for those that need this the most (or even don't)

Ugh somehow I just KNEW that was going to be the "new" number. I think 4s would be the absolute max I could concede (though still too long) with but 5 seconds is definitely still too long, again we should be focusing on those "MUST HAVE TOGGLE BACK ON ASAP" powers. Edit: ESPECIALLY for those with only one or two super important toggles. And again, this is very dependent that you actually have a useful click power that doesn't just draw aggro and get you killed as well. Seriously though, 3s or bust. (Note regarding mez and why this also affects more even with this are two things that could factor to this change: 1. Giving a "mez lockout" where you are protected from another mez for those seconds after unnerving. And 2. Toggle debuffs should tic replacing lasting debuffs, so if you get held with a debuff on, it will still last for 15 seconds etc after. The absorb on spirit was kinda works like this)

Its actually still a slight nerf for those with just one toggle at 3 seconds, (again esp since no toggle should take more than 1-1.5s to cast anwyays), and given that, about even with 2 toggles, and a slight buff to more than that, which is again, like, maybe 3 total combos in the game so not a big factor.

Except that logic is already flawed. This change, high in part, is mostly geared towards those sets that NEED those toggles on asap. IE, rad, dark, storm, etc. where in almost every scenario, they'd be retoggling those important toggles first and foremost. (damage auras should honestly not even be in this discussion). Especially on defender/corruptors/MMs also where their other skills, would be attacks and not always a useful (and recharged and ready) power, that would draw them aggro and get them killed. So expecting this change to be needed for anything but mostly those support sets and calculating from there is flawed. "A nice bonus" to damage auras and such on ATs where they mostly attack anyway", is a lot different from "I NEED THIS TOGGLE ON NOW MORE THAN I NEED TO ATTACK OR DO ANYTHING ELSE!" We are ALL looking almost exclusively at those "This toggle shouldn't have dropped at all and need it back ASAP" powers.

This, which has always been the biggest problem on squishies. It does need addressed IMO, but I can concede that this would indeed be another thread that wouldn't happen till a future patch. But yes again while it could be nice to attack, the main priority for those that this is really needed for, are thise sets and powers where you need the TOGGLE back on ASAP. So we should be looking first and foremost at those one/two toggle averages that are priority, or its a straight nerf. IE 3ish seconds (which includes that some *may* have a useful power to use during that time, but others who don't have one that wouldn't also draw aggro and get then killed etc)

It's also a lot of a mechanic to try to code in for just a simple "leave the suppression at 3 seconds instead where everyone is happy"

Not the mention the resistances (on top of shoudln't be basically required to have IOs) are also such piddly small values.

This exactly. I'd rather do harder stuff that makes me want a tank, troller etc on the team, but still being able to steamroll council radios on a blaster for example, rather than now not being able to play those squishies at all without a team altogether. Ie, don't ruin good content that a lot of people enjoy, just make more content for more people.

Would there be some way to implement, where it's not per character, but rather per account? Because I know personally one thing i hated most on live was having to relog in to characters to keep their name available for them when I want to go back to play them. But if say, instead, it was based on account, lets say someone hasn't logged in to their account in like 6 months, all their names should be freed. I think that would still free up a ton of names, and be more relevant without creating a lot more busy work for the playerbase. Maybe per account, but like, 30 days of not logging in, your 1-15 are up for grabs, etc, so you don't have to log in to the individual character, but just your account.

The only toggle that targets players that I can think of is spirit ward, which really shouldn't detoggle at all when mezzed IMO, but definitely should at least follow whatever new rule happens with this change. (sonic repulsion is cast on an ally, but its effect is to enemy so does not count).

Thank you for at least directly saying that. While I don't agree that it shouldn't at least be on the table, I do still feel it is completely within the realm of possibility though given all the other arguments me and others have said (ie, its not actually power creep when you look at them versus defensive toggles, its just the same as them but works differently). But ok, then since, no matter what we say its not going to be zero, back to discussing the length, which I'll restate the 3second timeframe seems the most reasonable given all the previous discussions.

They didn't specify anything else, just sonic resonance. As per spirit ward, it doesn't affect enemies, but given how it does toggle off when mezzed currently I Imagine it uses the same coding.

Um. Sonic Resonance only has two offensive toggles, disruption aura (the -res aura), and sonic repulsion (the kb). You're getting confused.

This was also all factored in to our arguments as well. What this DOES do, is limit player input as to what toggle goes on first, that we would rather do that first BEFORE attacking etc. What this at 8s effectively does is limit playstyle to expecting that people wouldn't cast certain high priority toggles on first, which is not good. Again this is SUPPOSED to be a help to players, mostly squishies, to somewhat lessen the hassle of getting constantly mezzed. Given previous arguments, notably that it shouldn't take more than 1-1.5s to cast any toggle anyway, the most necessary value for those who wish to lean into the toggles should be granted. A bonus to some, even still a slight nerf to others if it were at a 3ish second suppression, as opposed to a full blown nerf to ALL sets at 8 seconds. Again, this is to be a GOOD change, not "lets still try to hinder the players somehow to have them play how we want them to". And again to the fact, that defensive toggles have yet no suppression in comparison, let alone purple patch/resistances, so even any suppression is still kinda dumb TBH. (pvp can be different)

This exactly. There was NEVER a valid reason for them to not have the same target caps as ranged aoes. They all should be 16 targets where their ranged aoe counterparts are as well. Edit: and 10 cap on sentinels obviously. Given nukes too which IMO should be 24 normals/16 sents.

Again though, I'll have to say the very REAL in game experience facts that: 1. The timing looking at activation times, should also note that generally, (ie needed fixed before this anyway) no toggle should take more than 1-1.5s to activate as it stands already. 2. That this does not let you choose what gets activated first which can already consider for lots to be a nerf, and most cases have only 1 maybe 2 (rad being the only i can think offhand of that has 3) offensive toggles. 3. Recharge again ends up being pretty much non-existent (and also factors when you want to CHANGE targets), and should not be factored in to the suppression timing (defensive toggles do not have to deal with this) 4. Defensive toggles do not suppress at all, and since offensive ones already have to deal with the purple patch and being resisted, there really shoudln't even be any suppression at ALL on the offensive toggles. Factor in all of these things and even 3 seconds would be an outlier of possibly being too long of a suppression after the mez wears off, but considering current state- and being able to attack during that timeframe 3 seconds still ends up being the most that the suppression should last if it is to remain. Any longer is a nerf to almost any set out there. And in the *SUPER* early game having it be a *possible* buff (only if you still want it on the target that it's on after being mezzed and not a new target), it's still not going to change gameplay much at all and should be an acceptable help for the earlier toggle game.

While at it though, again especially for how melee-centric the set is in general with AA, it would make a lot more sense to have shivers just be a ranged aoe with a wide area that you can use in melee too. That has always been an odd part of the self-set synergy.

Yeah, definitely always been in the boat that self-armor toggles shoudln't even "cancel"/ suppress when mezzed, they should still be working.

No, i was saying it stops working when you're mezzed. NO way would i be saying to have them remove the slow in AA lol. I'm saying that the people saying shiver's slow is useless is wrong and I want to be able to use it in melee for MORE slow lol Agreed. And again for a melee set really with AA, shivers should really just be a wide area ranged aoe 35ft or more. not a cone so it can be used in melee too.

I would have to hardily disagree there. especially with even the toggle change when mezzed, even if no suppression after its over, the slow mainly from AA can go off, but shivers can stay. And since you're in melee for it, the wider slow of shiver works a lot better. Though all things considered, it really should just be a really big area targetted aoe, like 30 or 35 feet, and have the fear do that as well so you can use it in melee too. In any rate as well, they really need to make the debuff from shiver last way longer than it does. Even before any ice control changes, since you use it before jumping in and not as often after, it should have lasted way longer like a minute, not 18seconds (worse rech/duration stats than even the blaster version ugh)

Not on sentinels though with the dumb target cap change, who will only hit 6 with the -resistance and damage... While on the subject of the cones though, can we please equalize sirens song to the 50ft range like the other cones, that has always been a really funky part about the aoe on sonic too. Which is where on defenders and corruptors at least I think there should be slightly different tweaks to keep this in place. And with screech being a major part of the damage cycle now, should be sooner, i'd personally prefer aim at 35 on defenders where it is less necessary. (like explosive blast on energy blast too, main powers feel horrid to have to wait till 35 for, nukes make enough sense at 38 but by 28 the core of sets should be reachable) They also 100% need to give an extra effect for scream so there is actual value to picking up both the tier 1 and 2, especially in the defenders case who can't choose scream over shriek. Likewise having shriek's damage properly upgraded to the 62.56 damage at 50 scalar for blasters for it's 1s cast time. Going to re-iterate as well, that screech could very easily be made the set's snipe as well if that was a consideration.

Keep in mind, at current, they already have the code for offensive toggles to suppress when mezzed, with zero additional suppression once the mez breaks on the blaster sustains. Dynamo, Frigid, Reaction Time, Cauterizing Aura, and works this way for all defensive armors and toggles as well, and they nowhere near break the game. Also to note that the coding exists, just extend the powers it's for to include all offensive toggles. This would be a defacto nerf on those blaster sustains if it has ANY post-mez suppression. Just another thing to keep in mind if they're going to add the post-mez suppression with the live rollout.

Since no pseudo-pet benefits from containment I would imagine not. Unfortunately, procs on pseudopets especially with those with big areas like ice slick get TERRIBLE proc chances and still do every 10 seconds only. Enemy procs will do very little with ice slick. Re-iterating, allow us to slot slow and knockback sets and enhancements into ice slick and patch. Procs won't do much, but it REALLY can use actual slow enhancements like any slow patch can, quicksand can, tar patch can, etc. For a set thats about slows, its so odd this and ice patch could never take slow enhancments let alone sets, and kb sets/enhancements too. (for those that wish to extend the kb over mag 1 to knocback, for example a blaster might want to as a keep away ice patch rather than "stay on and fall down" patch. And either form would benefit from the slow. I'd also like to see the slow sets revamped to actual have good bonuses and stats (less that have damage where most don't have damage on them for example, and with more acc/end/rech stats). A new slow set that has a recharge proc would be very beneficial as well.

Yep, and again, buff toggles don't have this at ALL, seems kinda an extra opposition for these to have it especially when they're already affected by the purple patch, resistances, to hit checks on some, and mob placement. I would honestly not bat an eye at there being zero suppression at all and the game still being fine, but if you wanna factor animation time (not recharge time cause tbh they shouldn't have recharges as a toggle anyway and becomes negligible usually as well), considering LOTS should have lower cast times from what they have now too anyway, I think 3 seconds to average over all plus allowing you an attack or two during would be fair enough. (Also acknowledging that while it's nice to be able to attack, it is unfair to also take away a players precedence to preferably cast the toggle first instead of attacking, and that there isn't always a better "first action" power besides a toggle like with hurricane/rad infection like in the current version) Again, the goal of this change SHOULD be to make it BETTER for squishies without mez protection who get mezzed, not to just create a different mechanic with its own flaws. Since any toggle should have 1-1.5s max cast time anyway, and some combos do, but most have two or under two offensive toggles, 3 seconds of suppression would be the most fair value.