Focused Feedback: Rage

[Cawshun]

16 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Snip

You're ignoring that rage is permanent when it comes to the damaging abilities. SS is balanced around rage, so of course Stone Melee will come out on top when you ignore the affect of rage on the abilities. If you actually take one stack in to account (since one stack will no longer crash), Punch beats Stone Fist, Haymaker beats Stone Mallet, Knockout Blow beats Seismic Smash. So now it's 2-5 in favor of SS. That's actually why one stack would crash, because SS was over-performing in that time if it didn't. Now there's less reason for crashing at 1 stack because there are some other sets that can out-perform the single stack's damage even without the crash.

 

32 minutes ago, Chrome said:

this mentality is a road block in real change for the better.  SS IS NOT OK as it is. 

Why is it not okay? It's a matter of opinion about the play style of the set. It's not under-performing, in fact it's well above average in terms of performance. There has been no solid argument for change other than "I don't like it." SS is supposed to hit hard, and it does, but you can't let it hit that hard for free, especially when it's already such a popular set.

[Captain Citadel]

When SS needs one stack of Rage up all the time to compete with every other set that has Build Up, it begs the question why the set is designed in such a way that Rage needs to be up all the time, and then spawns questions like "why not make Rage a toggle?" and other such things that have become staples of this thread.

[Vanden]

59 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I never said min/maxers were illegitimate playstyles.  In fact, most min/maxers likely could adapt to changes if Rage was completely removed and exchanged for something else...that's what min/maxers do.  It's those that have adopted the min/maxed dressing for SS who are now holding the rest of the set hostage so they can try to keep their double stacking.  Yeah, forget FIXING the set so the rest of it is good, we need to keep double Rage despite it having nothing to do with the concept.

Super Strength isn't broken. It works fine with a single stack of Rage, which this patch gives us at a minor cost. Double-stacked Rage doesn't break anything, so why are you so keen to take it away, when it's not unbalancing, Super Strength doesn't need it gone to get fixed, and you admit that doing so isn't illegitimate?

9 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

When SS needs one stack of Rage up all the time to compete with every other set that has Build Up, it begs the question why the set is designed in such a way that Rage needs to be up all the time, and then spawns questions like "why not make Rage a toggle?" and other such things that have become staples of this thread.

The only reason people suggest making Rage a toggle is because they're lazy and don't want to have to pay attention to make their already excellent power work for them.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Vanden

[Captain Citadel]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The only reason people suggest making Rage a toggle is because they're lazy and don't want to have to pay attention to make their excellent power work for them.

The sets with Build Up don't need to (and can't anyway) perma it to be competitive with SS, though. SS needs perma single-stack Rage just to be on an even footing. That's why it begs the question of why it shouldn't be reworked. Removing the crash for a single stack is a good start, but when the power needs to be at one stack with 100% uptime just to maintain parity, it suggests the existing design for Rage needs improvement because it feels very awkward to use.

But no, keep simplifying my gripes down to laziness instead of offering compromises to the current stacking system.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Captain Citadel said:

The sets with Build Up don't need to (and can't anyway) perma it to be competitive with SS, though. SS needs perma single-stack Rage just to be on an even footing. That's why it begs the question of why it shouldn't be reworked.

Because Super Strength does have Rage.

[Rejolt]

Terrible idea: Rage gives inherent buffs based on knocks (back, down, up) caused and knocks attempted/ taken.

 

5 to hit, 20 damage each. Caps at 5. Lasts 10 seconds each. Can only trigger every 2 seconds.

 

Its a baaaaad idea but would actually feel like rage. 

 

Edit: For the stacking lovers, could make it stack higher than 5 but it could have negative effects at 6 and higher. Yes, duration/proc Times would have to be tweaked.

 

Could lower the proc lockout to 1 second as the only knock powers to guarantee them would be FS and Ko blow. I guess incoming fire would matter more for this. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Rejolt

[Captain Citadel]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Because Super Strength does have Rage.

So because it has Rage, we can never make changes to the functionality of that power beyond the single-stack crash removal? Perma-double-stacking it or even triple-stacking it is not intended behavior. Stack junkies are currently holding the entire set hostage because they cannot accept the possibility of improving the power by changing it. The "cottage rule" does not apply to everything. If it did, we'd still be on Issue 1.

[Vanden]

Just now, Captain Citadel said:

So because it has Rage, we can never make changes to the functionality of that power beyond the single-stack crash removal? Perma-double-stacking it or even triple-stacking it is not intended behavior. Stack junkies are currently holding the entire set hostage because they cannot accept the possibility of improving the power by changing it. The "cottage rule" does not apply to everything. If it did, we'd still be on Issue 1.

Why should we change it if it works as it is?

[Captain Citadel]

Just now, Vanden said:

Why should we change it if it works as it is?

Because a lot of people have good ideas for how it could work a lot better than it currently does. You seem to hold the mentality that change is bad on principle.

To quote Shuri, "just because something works, does not mean it cannot be improved."

[Vanden]

Just now, Captain Citadel said:

Because a lot of people have good ideas for how it could work a lot better than it currently does. You seem to hold the mentality that change is bad on principle.

To quote Shuri, "just because something works, does not mean it cannot be improved."

I have not seen a single good idea for how to improve it. Everyone wants to make it more complicated, and for what? How does that improve it? Right now it's a button you press every two minutes for an awesome buff. It's elegant in its simplicity.

[Leogunner]

47 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Super Strength isn't broken.

If it needs Rage to work properly, then something is likely wrong.

 

If Rage itself wasn't this beehive of balance that inhibits the set from being ported, I could agree with you that nothing is wrong with it.

 

And I'm not keen on taking anything away.  The set is crap.  It relies on a buff that it doesn't have to work to achieve (like Follow Up or Power Siphon), it's an iconic fantasy power executed poorly, the only reason it's gotten so much attention is because of its outlier power that shouldn't have been in the set in the first place.

 

Look.  I don't even play the set.  I've never touched it.  The only reason I'm talking about it is because YOU PEOPLE are talking about it lol.  If it wasn't broken then why are we here?  Apparently there is more to unpack here than you're willing to acknowledge.

 

No, I said min/maxing isn't illegitimate.  It's inevitable.  Min/maxing does a service to spotlight outliers and exploits that may need to be addressed....min/maxers also have a cumulative effect of messing up games with meta-gaming builds to reduce the effort required to succeed in the game which tends to decrease replay value or retention.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Leogunner

[Cooltastic]

On 9/12/2019 at 8:04 PM, Cooltastic said:

Rage Revamp: Tweaked a bit from my earlier post with a better understanding of what I was trying to go for hopefully.

 

So this is how I personally feel the power should work based on it's theme, while giving players the ability to manage it however they like. Also boosting SS's damage potential slightly(when and if you want to push it.)

 

First: Lower the cooldown on Rage from 4mins to 3mins. This allows the ability to get double stacked for about 30secs with roughly 95% recharge slotted. With Hasten you will be able to keep double stacked for even longer. With IO set bonuses added in you'll be able to triple stack Rage for a good amount of time. I'd like to see a build that can maintain ALMOST maintain perma Triple stacks if they want to go all in on Rage.

 

Secondly: Change the +80 Dam/+20 To-hit to +60 Dam/+15 To-hit per stack of Rage. The First stack will provide slightly less than live, but makes up for it in the end if you want to pursue the max offensive potential of the ability. On live you can perma Double Stacked, which comes out to +160 Dam/+40 To-hit. With the suggested alterations, while triple stacked, you will be able to reach +180 Dam/+45 To-hit.

 

Third: Remove the penalty at the end of Rage altogether and replace it with this step 4.

 

Fourth: Your first stack of Rage comes with no negative effects, just a straight buff. Your second and third stacks will have stacking negative effects that will be applied to your character for as long as you maintain the extra stacks of Rage. These are -7.5%Def/-15%Ell/-15%Res or -10%Def/-20%Ell/-20%Res(Which ever feels more fair for the added damage/acc boost in return.

 

Fifth: Make the End cost of 25% get spent upon activation of each stack.

 

These are my proposed changes to revamp this power in a way that should make the majority of players happy. Those that want to manage a single stack can still do so and save slots in the process by not needing to slot Rage for Recharge, can instead slot +To-hit to make up for the lower single stack amount. Those that just want to have fun stacking Rage will still get to do so, by setting it to Auto and letting what may come happen. Lower damage Tanks who's defenses are stacked may be more inclined to triple stack because they can afford the negative effects easier. Higher DPS brutes may prefer to manage single or double stacks as to keep they're survivability up, allowing them to make use of their designated Rage Slots elsewhere. These changes help open up builds slightly more for Super Strength.

 

These changes would make rage feel more in line with what it sounds like thematically. As your rage grows you are able to dish out more and more damage. But rage is hard to control, so as it grows it also makes you less focused on protecting yourself. The player gets to manage their character concept this way as well. Superman types would be more of a focused Rage. Hulk types would be more careless and only concerned with SMASH! 

 

Well, that's that as they say. Hope I've described things well enough to give this some serious thought over. 

Been awhile since I checked this thread, nothing much seems to have changed. I'm quoting my earlier post to get some of the fresher blood in here to take a deeper look into it who may not have read through every page. I still feel like this proposition is the best way to go with the power. It would make the set that much more engaging, giving Super Strength it's own little mini-game of managing Rage stacks. Sure it's not as engaging as the combo systems other melee sets have, but it's something extra for the set. 

[Vanden]

13 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

If it needs Rage to work properly, then something is likely wrong.

Is Titan Weapons somehow wrong because it needs Momentum to work properly? Are Mastermind primaries somehow wrong because they need pets to work properly? Some sets have lynchpin powers. It doesn't mean they're broken.

 

15 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Look.  I don't even play the set.  I've never touched it.

Then what are you even doing here? How could your opinion on how Rage works and how it could be changed have any meaning at all when you have absolutely no experience with Rage or Super Strength, and everything you know about it is hearsay?

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

It should've been possible to stack rage before ED.  240% or so recharge on both hasten and rage just from six-slotting them with recharge SOs.  I didn't play back then, but did it happen?

 

Stacked Rage

Perma-Unstoppable

Perma Dull Pain

 

 

Yes, there was definitely a time that it happened. 😁

[Captain Citadel]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Is Titan Weapons somehow wrong because it needs Momentum to work properly? Are Mastermind primaries somehow wrong because they need pets to work properly? Some sets have lynchpin powers. It doesn't mean they're broken.

Those are disingenuous arguments and you know it. Pets and Masterminds are far more integral to each other than Rage is to Super Strength. Momentum in Titan Weapons is not a separate power that has to be micro-managed, it's a built-in mechanic. Build Momentum itself has far more in common with Build Up, but outside of that, Momentum is more like a proc.

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Is Titan Weapons somehow wrong because it needs Momentum to work properly?

But every attack besides the ones that require momentum can get you momentum.  You don't need Build Momentum to get momentum.  If Build Momentum was a long duration "always have momentum" click that can be perma'ed, that analogy might work.

 

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Are Mastermind primaries somehow wrong because they need pets to work properly?

But pets aren't a single power...they're like, 5 different powers.

 

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Some sets have lynchpin powers. It doesn't mean they're broken.

You're right.  Lynchpin powers doesn't equal broken.  But you're wrong here or why would this discussion exist?  Or why isn't Scrapper kitted out with double Rage SS right now?

[Vanden]

13 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Those are disingenuous arguments and you know it. Pets and Masterminds are far more integral to each other than Rage is to Super Strength. Momentum in Titan Weapons is not a separate power that has to be micro-managed, it's a built-in mechanic. Build Momentum itself has far more in common with Build Up, but outside of that, Momentum is more like a proc.

What's the difference? They're all core aspects of the set. I don't see how the way they get access to those mechanics affects whether or not you can consider them essential.

 

10 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You're right.  Lynchpin powers doesn't equal broken.

I know.

[Megajoule]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

Because Super Strength does have Rage.

This is a tautology.  "SS has Rage because it has Rage."

(and the related "Changing Rage means that SS is no longer SS".)

[Megajoule]

And to everyone suggesting "play Street Justice instead, then" - I have, finally, gotten around to that recently.   IMO, "they both have punching" is factually correct, but meaningless; the same statement can be made of half the melee sets.  My experience of StJ is that it plays very different, particularly the combo mechanic.

 

I enjoy the animations, the FX, the rhythm and the general experience of playing Super Strength, except for Rage.  Putting aside my conceptual issues with the name chosen for the power (and its inappropriateness, IMO, for certain character concepts), I don't care for the additional complexity and overhead.  Although many of the newer sets have various combo mechanics to be watched and managed, the original melee powersets were - with this notable exception - quite simple.   I think that balancing the set around this power was a mistake, and I'm sad that - as has been shown to me - the way powersets are coded means that we can't just throw it out.  (In light of that, I'll settle for a non-stacking toggle, but I really wish it could be eliminated completely.  Simplify, simplify, simplify.)

 

Speaking for myself:  I don't want to watch the timer, I don't want to deal with the crash, I Just Want To Punch People (and sometimes Stomp them) - all day, if I build for End right.  I want the simple, straightforward, "mindless" punch-up.  I want "which attack shall I/should I use next?" to be the biggest decision I'm faced with.  Now, I would also like to be doing decent damage while I'm doing this ... but if it's a choice between having to deal with Rage in its current form, or dealing less damage and not having to, I will choose the latter (and have).

 

Sometimes, what I really want is just a bowl of plain vanilla ice cream.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Megajoule

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Megajoule said:

This is a tautology.  "SS has Rage because it has Rage."

That isn't what I said, though. I was responding to the assertion that if Super Strength is bad without Rage, then Rage/Super Strength should be reworked. I was saying why rework it, when it already has the thing it needs to not be bad?

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

That isn't what I said, though. I was responding to the assertion that if Super Strength is bad without Rage, then Rage/Super Strength should be reworked. I was saying why rework it, when it already has the thing it needs to not be bad?

 

While I will live with what is on test now (because I will have no choice if it goes live), I am firmly in the “non-stacking, no crash” group. The End cost (which was the original penalty) is all that really needs to be attached to it.

 

Honestly, the “Holding Hostage” idea is the most accurate descriptive of what is currently happening in this thread.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Honestly, the “Holding Hostage” idea is the most accurate descriptive of what is currently happening in this thread.

It's an extremely biased description that makes the people who actually like the way Rage works now sound like villains. They don't want the power they like to get nerfed? Geez, what a bunch of jerks.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Vanden

[Myrmidon]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It's an extremely biased description that makes the people who actually like the way Rage works now sound like villains. They don't want the power they like to get nerfed? Geez, what a bunch of jerks.

 

I think that stacking Rage is the broken part and the set will never be more than a subpar example of one of the most iconic powers of the entire genre unless that is removed.

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

I think that stacking Rage is the broken part and the set will never be more than a subpar example of one of the most iconic powers of the entire genre unless that is removed.

If you mean it's "broken" in the sense that it's too good, I don't know how having it makes Super Strength subpar.

[Megajoule]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

 

I think that stacking Rage is the broken part and the set will never be more than a subpar example of one of the most iconic powers of the entire genre unless that is removed.

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

If you mean it's "broken" in the sense that it's too good, I don't know how having it makes Super Strength subpar.

 

I read that as "subpar" in the sense that it's a bad mechanic, and its presence makes Cryptic's version, vision and/or implementation of Super Strength less than it could have been.

To put it another way, including (stackable) Rage in the set and balancing the set around it makes CoH's SS a flawed creation.  As long as it's present (Myrmidon asserts, and I would tend to agree), Super Strength can never really be "fixed".  You, of course, apparently disagree that it needs to be.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Megajoule