Focused Feedback: Rage

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

So does it crash if they overlap on live? And what is in the crash? Can you avoid the - def part? 

On the live homecoming servers, it does crash.  

 

The crash is -20 def, an end drop, and 10 sec of no damage. 

 

On live Ncsoft the -20 def part only could be avoided by stacking.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Eiko-chan said:

On live NCSoft it could also stack, so you could have a period of double rage to offset the crash.

Still crashed, just the def penalty never implemented if stacked.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Eiko-chan said:

I am not saying it didn't crash, I'm saying double rage more than made up for the crash period. The proposed changes take away stacking potential.

How so?

 

Its exactly like before except now its spread between def and res.

 

Also there is already a rage thread.  This is not it.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

I see a lot of people concerned about timing Rage as close to perfect so they avoid the crash, but in my eyes I don't see it as a significant burden. Sure if you don't want Rage to fall for even a second it matters, but there is no harm if someone lets a single stack drop for a few seconds. I don't get why it's such a big deal to some.

What amazes me is that its tanks who are complaining, when they are far easier to build to ignore the crash.

 

 

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

What amazes me is that its tanks who are complaining, when they are far easier to build to ignore the crash.

 

 

On top of that, I just don't see why being cautious and losing rage for a couple seconds matters, it will completely remove the risk if a person gives themselves a small cushion. The only time I can think when it could matter is if someone is trying to test a build's high end potential(think Pylon) or when doing some sort of extreme challenge(solo BAF maybe?). In situations like those I feel like timing clicks and activations is a central part of the challenge, so I don't think those should be much of a consideration.

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

The crash - when it happens - is only lessened for defense sets, it's worse for builds that have resistance to go with their defense.

Copied this over from the other thread, since it's about Rage; I wanted to say that the crash is in fact lessened for everyone, since the -End effect is no longer part of the crash but an upfront cost when you first activate.

[Haijinx]

I think a lot of people were running with the impression that the -def is not happening on live homecomming.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Also there is already a rage thread.  This is not it.

 

And now it is.🤣

Edited October 3, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Demon Shell]

So, something I didn't understand before. You can still double-stack Rage? Like double-stack, Judgement nuke, and shrug off the crash while you walk to the next group? I thought the crash avoidance was just a "pay attention" mechanic.

[Myrmidon]

Judging by the last patch, it’s safe to say that what we have now is going to be the change that goes to live. Those of us that don’t want to stack it don’t have to and those of us that want to stack it can. It’s really as simple as that at this point.

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

So, something I didn't understand before. You can still double-stack Rage? Like double-stack, Judgement nuke, and shrug off the crash while you walk to the next group? I thought the crash avoidance was just a "pay attention" mechanic.

You can still double stack.

 

It mostly works the same as it does now.

 

 

[Bunmaster]

I think this is the best compromise we can get. Considering that we will NEVER get Live Rage back without a nerf (which was left as is by Live devs after tests). 

 

Stackers gonna stack and suffer the HC consequences, non-stackers gonna have their non-crash. Why is there even a complaint?

 

Personally i'd remove the -Dam component and keep the rest (def, res and end crash). But it appears players don't understand that SS is balanced around Rage. I have to spend 10 sec with -1000% dmg every 120sec, just to be average compared to other primaries dmg-wise.  

 

Balancing double Rage is like balancing IOs, since Rage is perma with SO.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Copied this over from the other thread, since it's about Rage; I wanted to say that the crash is in fact lessened for everyone, since the -End effect is no longer part of the crash but an upfront cost when you first activate.

Which changes timing, but doesn't make it lesser.

 

Edited to include the rest of the quote, since you left it out and it's feedback on Rage:

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

As you mentioned, the crash (if it happens) is worse for Brutes than Tankers due to having the same defense and resistance penalty applied to an AT with lower modifiers for defense and resistance; Brutes also get less effect from Rage (lower AT modifier, now much lower, combined with an inherent that provides them more +damage much easier).

Edited October 3, 2019 by siolfir

[WumpusRat]

1 hour ago, Demon Shell said:

So, something I didn't understand before. You can still double-stack Rage? Like double-stack, Judgement nuke, and shrug off the crash while you walk to the next group? I thought the crash avoidance was just a "pay attention" mechanic.

To be fair, if the game is meant to be balanced around SO's without taking into account IOs and other things, it shouldn't be balanced around the use of incarnate abilities either.

 

 

[Demon Shell]

4 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

To be fair, if the game is meant to be balanced around SO's without taking into account IOs and other things, it shouldn't be balanced around the use of incarnate abilities either.

The game's difficulty is balanced around SOs. If IOs were truly never taken into account Willpower's T9 wouldn't ignore recharge.

 

 

[WumpusRat]

6 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

The game's difficulty is balanced around SOs. If IOs were truly never taken into account Willpower's T9 wouldn't ignore recharge.

 

 

There are plenty of ways to get recharge outside of IO sets. Hasten, speed boost, chrono shift, temp powers, etc. Willpower's T9 was set at a shorter cooldown than some, and isn't affected by +recharge (or -recharge, either, I believe), just to make it different. I doubt they did it because of IO sets.

 

The main point was saying "just use an incarnate ability while you're rage-crashed" seems a bit silly to say given that you can get rage at well below incarnate level.

[Demon Shell]

40 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

The main point was saying "just use an incarnate ability while you're rage-crashed" seems a bit silly to say given that you can get rage at well below incarnate level.

I didn't say that. I didn't even insinuate that. Is that a thing? Can you Judgement while Rage-crashed and still deal damage through the -Dam debuff? I've never played SS.

 

I asked, as a post game option not available to any other offensive set, if you could double-stack Rage and Judgement nuke. Although come to think of it you could also Foot Stomp, or Knockout Blow if only one enemy is left.

 

You obviously wouldn't always do that. Unless you're ending an engagement or whittling down a large mob it would cause a massive dip in your DPS for a burst that fell short. It would just be an available option. If it can or even should ever be done. I have no idea. That's why I asked.

[WumpusRat]

36 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

I didn't say that. I didn't even insinuate that. Is that a thing? Can you Judgement while Rage-crashed and still deal damage through the -Dam debuff? I've never played SS.

 

I asked, as a post game option not available to any other offensive set, if you could double-stack Rage and Judgement nuke. Although come to think of it you could also Foot Stomp, or Knockout Blow if only one enemy is left.

 

You obviously wouldn't always do that. Unless you're ending an engagement or whittling down a large mob it would cause a massive dip in your DPS for a burst that fell short. It would just be an available option. If it can or even should ever be done. I have no idea. That's why I asked.

I haven't gotten a SS character up into incarnate levels yet myself, though my current tanker is almost there. Honestly I have no idea if incarnate abilities will even do damage while you're rage-crashed, since the debuff is like -9990% damage. So for 10 seconds you basically do zero damage once you crash. Judgement nukes might not suffer from that though. I'd have to test it out on pineapple and see.

 

Like I said, personally I think they should just do away with double stacking, and eliminate the crash all together. Make it function like a lot of the clicky status protection stuff. Doesn't take a lot to make it perma, and you could just set-and-forget. 

[siolfir]

To answer the marginally-related question, Judgement is flagged to ignore outside buffs, so your only benefit from double-stacking Rage before using it is the +tohit - it's not going to hit for 1000 damage that way. The flip side of that is that since it ignores outside buffs for damage that also means that it ignores the -damage during the crash (like the prestige attacks from the P2W vendor, or the Bio Armor Offensive Adaptation extra hits).

[Myrmidon]

10 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

Like I said, personally I think they should just do away with double stacking, and eliminate the crash all together. Make it function like a lot of the clicky status protection stuff. Doesn't take a lot to make it perma, and you could just set-and-forget. 

 

Things like this cannot be said enough. Getting rid of Rage stacking would allow for observing whether or not Super Strength needs a review.

[Demon Shell]

7 hours ago, siolfir said:

To answer the marginally-related question, Judgement is flagged to ignore outside buffs, so your only benefit from double-stacking Rage before using it is the +tohit - it's not going to hit for 1000 damage that way. The flip side of that is that since it ignores outside buffs for damage that also means that it ignores the -damage during the crash (like the prestige attacks from the P2W vendor, or the Bio Armor Offensive Adaptation extra hits).

I always assumed the -Dam was "spam taunt" time. I didn't realize you had any offensive options so I found this very interesting. I've never made an SS build before but I did just now in Mids (Ice/SS/Soul) and ran across something I wasn't expecting.

 

If you get your recharge high enough that you can maintain a 100% double stack of Rage, can you activate the second Rage inside the new Rage safety window to only have one crash every 2 minutes but twice as much +Dam/+To-Hit? If no one knows, I'll probably test that later tonight.

[JetMalakai]

Can someone please explain why we don't make it a toggle and call it a day?

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, JetMalakai said:

Can someone please explain why we don't make it a toggle and call it a day?

Because some people enjoy double stacking.

[Captain Citadel]

13 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Because some people enjoy double stacking.

It's balancing the entire set around double and triple stacking that's causing so much of the grief over these proposed changes, though. It was already a mistake to build the set around Rage when so many other sets get by without a constant buff power to account for. Build Up is optional for so many builds because you can't have 100% uptime on it, but because you can have perma-Rage and stack it, the entire set has to be balanced around the assumption that it will be built for perma at the very least. It'd be like if Hasten was part of a powerset instead of a pool power, you'd be expected to take it and build around it. No other damage sets are built with something like Rage that needs to be up all the time to have parity with other sets.

[Demon Shell]

17 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

No other damage sets are built with something like Rage that needs to be up all the time to have parity with other sets.

Inner Light, Peacebringer

20 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

It'd be like if Hasten was part of a powerset instead of a pool power, you'd be expected to take it and build around it.

Siphon Speed, Kinetics

22 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

It's balancing the entire set around double and triple stacking that's causing so much of the grief over these proposed changes, though.

These changes don't alter how Rage works. You didn't like Rage before they proposed this.

25 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Build Up is optional for so many builds because you can't have 100% uptime on it, but because you can have perma-Rage and stack it, the entire set has to be balanced around the assumption that it will be built for perma at the very least.

Does it though? Double-stacked or not, Jab still sucks. It causes Punch and Haymaker to both be one notch below where they should be on the recharge/damage/endurance cost scale because of it (2, 4, 8 instead of 3-4, 6-8, 9-12).

 

Hand Clap doesn't deal any damage. That's fine in Electric Melee, it has a ton of AoE. But SS doesn't.

 

Those are both independent of Rage. Not that Rage should double-stack/crash, those just happen to be issues that need addressing regardless.