Focused Feedback: Rage

[Rinswind]

7 hours ago, Sniktch said:

The error in your logic is trying to use Titan Weapons as a balance point, instead of a drastic outlier.

 

To reverse your logic, what business does Super Strength have being so 'strong' when Energy Melee exists?

 

Answer: Energy Melee is a drastic outlier, and should not be used as a balance comparison until it's brought up to a reasonable level.  Similarly, Titan is a drastic outlier, and should not be used as a balance comparison until it's brought down to a reasonable level.

Super Strength is most certainly not in second place for damage though even with double rage, so the problem basically lies in that SS is just not a good set from the get go, especially given it only has 1 AoE. But I guess if you want to nerf everything at the top down to a certain level, and buff everything bad up to a certain level, go ahead. But you are still left with the fact Rage has a crash at all, when the other sets have no punishing effects attached to them. 

 

The only way to justify the crash was if currently every set was equal, and SS had the option to increase it's effectiveness a little further with the second rage at the cost of the eventual negative crash, the trade off. Though I'd prefer just 1 stack of rage and no crash but with higher base values on the set to make up for it. Basically if everything were to be better balanced to a certain level why should Rage be inflicting negatives when other sets don't have to deal with that sort of thing but still having equal power?

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rinswind

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Rinswind said:

Super Strength is most certainly not in second place for damage though even with double rage, so the problem basically lies in that SS is just not a good set from the get go, especially given it only has 1 AoE. But I guess if you want to nerf everything at the top down to a certain level, and buff everything bad up to a certain level, go ahead. But you are still left with the fact Rage has a crash at all, when the other sets have no punishing effects attached to them. 

actually you should scroll up this thread a bit.  Sir M was able to get ~2 min times on pylons with SS.  

[Rinswind]

54 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

actually you should scroll up this thread a bit.  Sir M was able to get ~2 min times on pylons with SS.  

Sorry, I wasn't really talking about Pylon effectiveness. I guess pylon DPS is important? I wouldn't know I don't really do them, but if that is the measuring stick for "dps" -   fine. But I'm talking more in a general gameplay, normal scenario type perspective. 

 

My main point is, whatever balancing/tuning needs to happen to make Rage have no negative crashes while still being competitive , should happen, as no other set has negative drawbacks this severe for using their built-in mechanics. As in, making us be careful about using it off cooldown and having to always keep your eye on your buff tray so as to avoid unwanted negative crashes is a pretty terrible idea IMO.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rinswind

[Haijinx]

23 minutes ago, Rinswind said:

Sorry, I wasn't really talking about Pylon effectiveness. I guess pylon DPS is important? I wouldn't know I don't really do them, but if that is the measuring stick for "dps" -   fine. But I'm talking more in a general gameplay, normal scenario type perspective. 

 

My main point is, whatever balancing/tuning needs to happen to make Rage have no negative crashes while still being competitive , should happen, as no other set has negative drawbacks this severe for using their built-in mechanics. As in, making us be careful about using it off cooldown and having to always keep your eye on your buff tray so as to avoid unwanted negative crashes is a pretty terrible idea IMO.

 

Pylon times are where the TW is OP claims usually start.  Thus I mentioned it.  

 

By way of comparison he was beating most scrapper set times with SS

[Rigged]

Out of curiosity, since I do not have the endurance or time to read a 24 page thread, is there some reason against say,

 

- Increasing the recharge on all SS single target attacks to equal or exceed other sets, along with damage (4-8s recharge on jab, for instance),

 

- increasing the recharge and damage of foot stomp to a much smaller degree

 

- decrease the + damage effect of the Rage to about 50%, remove the crash and make it not stack

 

This would

- normalise SS (or make it a high performer) outside Rage

 

- make SS perform very well but not overpowering with Rage

 

- eliminate problems associated with the rage mechanic

 

- allow people to actually feel like superman without overpowering the set

 

Please consider, in lieu of raising foot stomp damage as mentioned above, giving hand clap some nice damage. This would break the cottage rule and so I include it as optional.

 

My interest in this is purely that I want a "super strength" style set that actually does good damage without annoyances. I would in fact be perfectly happy with a brand new set called "Might" that does this, or even completely removing Rage and replacing it with Build Up and normalising the set damage to say, War Mace numbers.

 

 

[Haijinx]

Reason against it would be the die hard double stackers

 

Same reason SS never has been fixed.  Likely never will. 

[Rigged]

As an addendum, since there is some problem with the proposed rage changes, is it difficult to add a second power to a power choice, the way stance powers do?

 

Because it seems to me it would be easier for players if Rage had an extra "stance" power.

 

Let's call it "I'm Always Angry" (IAA). You get IAA when you pick Rage, kind of like how you get 3 stances when you pick some stance powers. IAA is a toggle, cannot be slotted and costs no endurance. It only serves as a "flag" to a direct the Rage power into one of two effects.

 

When you do not have IAA turned on, Rage functions exactly as it does on live. It crashes, and perhaps if you want to diversify the crash effect into resist you can.

 

When you do have IAA turned on, Rage will no longer stack and have no crash.

 

This seems to be a much more elegant solution than making players watch their bars like hawks to reactivate Rage to avoid a crash.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rigged

[Rigged]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Reason against it would be the die hard double stackers

 

Same reason SS never has been fixed.  Likely never will. 

OK, if this is such a huge problem, can we get a duplicate set please?

 

This is exactly how Willpower came to be. The die hard "never change this set" crowd conflicted with the "let's make this more fun and balanced" crowd. And to satisfy both, the devs just duplicated most of the powers, changed some around, and recoloured the base effects. We got a new set, and you can henceforth tell everyone who wants to buff the old set to shove off and get the new one.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Rigged said:

OK, if this is such a huge problem, can we get a duplicate set please?

 

This is exactly how Willpower came to be. The die hard "never change this set" crowd conflicted with the "let's make this more fun and balanced" crowd. And to satisfy both, the devs just duplicated most of the powers, changed some around, and recoloured the base effects. We got a new set, and you can henceforth tell everyone who wants to buff the old set to shove off and get the new one.

Id be cool with it 

 

Could call it Might or something.

 

 Can even mix up some of the animations with STJ,  Since SS looks old.

 

But I doubt it will happen. 

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, Rigged said:

As an addendum, since there is some problem with the proposed rage changes, is it difficult to add a second power to a power choice, the way stance powers do?

 

Because it seems to me it would be easier for players if Rage had an extra "stance" power.

 

Let's call it "I'm Always Angry" (IAA). You get IAA when you pick Rage, kind of like how you get 3 stances when you pick some stance powers. IAA is a toggle, cannot be slotted and costs no endurance. It only serves as a "flag" to a direct the Rage power into one of two effects.

 

When you do not have IAA turned on, Rage functions exactly as it does on live. It crashes, and perhaps if you want to diversify the crash effect into resist you can.

 

When you do have IAA turned on, Rage will no longer stack and have no crash.

 

This seems to be a much more elegant solution than making players watch their bars like hawks to reactivate Rage to avoid a crash.

The Captain has already said that there won’t be anymore remakes like they did with Super Reflexes, so we’re going to have to go with either just the Rage change or a set rebalance.

[Rigged]

Here, let me make a suggestion that would actually enrich the game lore. Please consider a Praetorian EAT called "Olympian". Perhaps Praetor Berry was on the verge of improving a new range of Olympians for Tyrant.

 

You get Super Strength style offence with high recharge and damage. Your hand clap does damage. You can footstomp. You get Build Up instead of Rage. You have a range of eyebeam options that look a lot like Beam Weapon attacks. In your secondary pool you can get some Invuln-style and flight powers, and possibly pets like VEATs. 

 

This would let people play both Cyclops and Superman depending on the powers they pick, and both if need be.

 

Let me be frank here. I do not care about cute mechanics. What I want is high performance and aesthetics and minimal annoyances. I want to punch a bad guy and make him crumple like paper very quickly. I do not want stupid crash mechanics and never take any if the God modes except as a mule. In fact, I never played a blaster type that had a nuke with a crash.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rigged

[Rigged]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

The Captain has already said that there won’t be anymore remakes like they did with Super Reflexes, so we’re going to have to go with either just the Rage change or a set rebalance.

With respect I do believe his comment was on creating dual mutual lockout powers. That is, a choice of two powers on which you can only pick one.

 

I am instead suggesting a stance, where you get both the toggle and clickie when you pick Rage, exactly like how stances are acquired.

[Myrmidon]

23 hours ago, Rigged said:

Here, let me make a suggestion that would actually enrich the game lore. Please consider a Praetorian EAT called "Olympian". Perhaps Praetor Berry was on the verge of improving a new range of Olympians for Tyrant.

 

You get Super Strength style offence with high recharge and damage. Your hand clap does damage. You can footstomp. You get Build Up instead of Rage. You have a range of eyebeam options that look a lot like Beam Weapon attacks. In your secondary pool you can get some Invuln-style and flight powers, and possibly pets like VEATs. 

 

This would let people play both Cyclops and Superman depending on the powers they pick, and both if need be.

 

Let me be frank here. I do not care about cute mechanics. What I want is high performance and aesthetics and minimal annoyances. I want to punch a bad guy and make him crumple like paper very quickly. I do not want stupid crash mechanics and never take any if the God modes except as a mule. In fact, I never played a blaster type that had a nuke with a crash.

If you judge solely by my name, I will always vote for anything from that mythos.

[Captain Citadel]

On 10/15/2019 at 7:03 PM, Rigged said:

Here, let me make a suggestion that would actually enrich the game lore. Please consider a Praetorian EAT called "Olympian". Perhaps Praetor Berry was on the verge of improving a new range of Olympians for Tyrant.

 

You get Super Strength style offence with high recharge and damage. Your hand clap does damage. You can footstomp. You get Build Up instead of Rage. You have a range of eyebeam options that look a lot like Beam Weapon attacks. In your secondary pool you can get some Invuln-style and flight powers, and possibly pets like VEATs. 

 

This would let people play both Cyclops and Superman depending on the powers they pick, and both if need be.

 

Let me be frank here. I do not care about cute mechanics. What I want is high performance and aesthetics and minimal annoyances. I want to punch a bad guy and make him crumple like paper very quickly. I do not want stupid crash mechanics and never take any if the God modes except as a mule. In fact, I never played a blaster type that had a nuke with a crash.

I don't think we need a Superman/Cyclops-themed EAT, but otherwise I agree with you. I personally don't want eye beams, I just want to play a flying tank with super strength that doesn't need Rage to obliterate his enemies, and can be built to laugh in the face of all damage types. My current build is indestructible and can even hit the flight speed cap, but he hits like a wet noodle because I took out Rage for the sake of convenience. It really feels bad to have all my DPS wrapped up in one super inconvenient power.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 10/15/2019 at 1:35 PM, Rinswind said:

Super Strength is most certainly not in second place for damage though even with double rage

It most certainly is. Super Strength is demonstrably overpowered in its current state, and I’ve tested, recorded, and showed that data earlier in this thread. Both in ST and AoE capacity, SS is currently only held second to Titan Weapons.
 

The reason people talk about the Pylon challenge is because it is a focused test for single target DPS against a static target. To demonstrate that I wasn’t building against a singular purpose, all my builds were posted, and also tested in +4/x8 scenarios, solo. 
 

If you want a more specific look at it, I posted additional discussion on it in the Tanker Proc Monster thread. In all the tests and data I’ve worked with, none have matched SS under double stacked Rage except TW that exceeded it. I also tested it on both Tanks and Brutes to validate.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

It most certainly is. Super Strength is demonstrably overpowered in its current state, and I’ve tested, recorded, and showed that data earlier in this thread. Both in ST and AoE capacity, SS is currently only held second to Titan Weapons.
 

The reason people talk about the Pylon challenge is because it is a focused test for single target DPS against a static target. To demonstrate that I wasn’t building against a singular purpose, all my builds were posted, and also tested in +4/x8 scenarios, solo. 
 

If you want a more specific look at it, I posted additional discussion on it in the Tanker Proc Monster thread. In all the tests and data I’ve worked with, none have matched SS under double stacked Rage except TW that exceeded it. I also tested it on both Tanks and Brutes to validate.

I think myth has prevailed over reality on Double Stacked Rage forever.  

 

Your testing is much appreciated.  

[Golden Azrael]

On 10/19/2019 at 1:59 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

It most certainly is. Super Strength is demonstrably overpowered in its current state, and I’ve tested, recorded, and showed that data earlier in this thread. Both in ST and AoE capacity, SS is currently only held second to Titan Weapons.
 

The reason people talk about the Pylon challenge is because it is a focused test for single target DPS against a static target. To demonstrate that I wasn’t building against a singular purpose, all my builds were posted, and also tested in +4/x8 scenarios, solo. 
 

If you want a more specific look at it, I posted additional discussion on it in the Tanker Proc Monster thread. In all the tests and data I’ve worked with, none have matched SS under double stacked Rage except TW that exceeded it. I also tested it on both Tanks and Brutes to validate.

 

Well.  So SS and TWs stand taller than the rest of the Tank AT melee sets.  (Why wouldn't SS stand so tall when it can double stack Rage?)  The question is, are other melee set fans happy with that?

 

What does this mean for Ice, EM, Stone, Street Justice etc?  They don't have 'Rage' (or an equivalent 'Might' mode.)  And so we seriously consider BU a 10/15 sec Icarus moment anywhere near the same as a 2 minute damage and to hit buff?

 

What are the options?

 

1.  Manually pass over each Tank Melee set and noodle the numbers higher?  So they are higher than base SS numbers?

2.  Give all tankers 'Rage' (But this reduces the unique SS.  But is it fair SS has access to this vat of Damage and To Hit for 2 mins vs 15 sec for the rest?!)

3.  All tankers have BU.  So make BU a a 2 minute click of single stack 'Mighty' (SS is unique as it can double stack its Rage.  The deficit to all other tankers is reduced as they FINALLY get a single stack of 'Rage', I'd call it 'Mighty.'  eg.  The name from Incarnate's 'Might.')

 

Cap Powerhouse talked about adding a 'Fury' or damage strength bar to Tanks.  I wish he had.  It would have added more interest to tank's combat.  A bit like a domi bar.  The best mechanism in the game for me.  You hit and hit and then 'Might' button 'press' and you get 2 mins of 'BU'.   It would be fun and unique to tankers vs Brute.  Just drop in the Domi Button builder and press mechanism into the Tank AT.  'Instant' solution and one which would add value.

 

Simple.  Effective.  Fun.

 

Tank's are having the 'AT' pass (long overdue at the moment.)  But I'd argue these changes are somewhat expect and conservative.  They all make sense.  Higher base dam and cap and wider aggro taunt and range of attack amplified.

 

I've built an EM tank and a TWs tank on Beta.   They're not in the same universe.  An EM tank vs a SS tank are not in the same universe.

 

So the answer to that is?  

 

Azrael.

  

 

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Megajoule]

As noted before, I'm all for doing away with Rage entirely the "feast or famine" nature of the set, and smoothing out the curve; no more spikes, no more crash and no more stacking.  Steady and consistent performance that can be balanced against other sets.

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

Well.  So SS and TWs stand taller than the rest of the Tank AT melee sets.  (Why wouldn't SS stand so tall when it can double stack Rage?)  The question is, are other melee set fans happy with that?

 

What does this mean for Ice, EM, Stone, Street Justice etc?  They don't have 'Rage' (or an equivalent 'Might' mode.)  And so we seriously consider BU a 10/15 sec Icarus moment anywhere near the same as a 2 minute damage and to hit buff?

 

What are the options?

 

1.  Manually pass over each Tank Melee set and noodle the numbers higher?  So they are higher than base SS numbers?

2.  Give all tankers 'Rage' (But this reduces the unique SS.  But is it fair SS has access to this vat of Damage and To Hit for 2 mins vs 15 sec for the rest?!)

3.  All tankers have BU.  So make BU a a 2 minute click of single stack 'Mighty' (SS is unique as it can double stack its Rage.  The deficit to all other tankers is reduced as they FINALLY get a single stack of 'Rage', I'd call it 'Mighty.'  eg.  The name from Incarnate's 'Might.')

 

Cap Powerhouse talked about adding a 'Fury' or damage strength bar to Tanks.  I wish he had.  It would have added more interest to tank's combat.  A bit like a domi bar.  The best mechanism in the game for me.  You hit and hit and then 'Might' button 'press' and you get 2 mins of 'BU'.   It would be fun and unique to tankers vs Brute.  Just drop in the Domi Button builder and press mechanism into the Tank AT.  'Instant' solution and one which would add value.

 

Simple.  Effective.  Fun.

 

Tank's are having the 'AT' pass (long overdue at the moment.)  But I'd argue these changes are somewhat expect and conservative.  They all make sense.  Higher base dam and cap and wider aggro taunt and range of attack amplified.

 

I've built an EM tank and a TWs tank on Beta.   They're not in the same universe.  An EM tank vs a SS tank are not in the same universe.

 

So the answer to that is?  

 

Azrael.

  

 

 

Yes.  Solve rage balance issues by giving it to ALLL tanks!

 

Rofl.

 

/jranger

[Rigged]

17 hours ago, Megajoule said:

As noted before, I'm all for doing away with Rage entirely the "feast or famine" nature of the set, and smoothing out the curve; no more spikes, no more crash and no more stacking.  Steady and consistent performance that can be balanced against other sets.

This honestly is the main issue for SS; that Rage is integral to the balance of the set. If you skip Rage, your damage is amongst the lowest in the class. And taking and using rage means that you have to deal with crashes. Double stacking rage pushes you into the other end of the spectrum, turning you into an outlier again.

 

This in an of itself is usually not a problem, since mechanic gimmicks are part of CoH's powerset diversity, but it is when Super Strength happens to be a core, integral powerset for the superhero mythos. Most of us want to play Super Strength just for the aesthetics. And this would not be a problem if other powersets could adequately represent what we want, but none of them do! Currently the best contenders are Radiation Melee and Energy Melee which have their own separate issues, not the least of which is unnecessary glowy hands.

 

If Megajoule's suggestion is not palatable to the Homecoming devs because it would disrupt those who like SS as-is, PLEASE consider creating an alternate powerset that can represent the aesthetics and damage we would want without the crash - with the understanding that double-stacking rage will not be an option in that set. To have high (but not to high) damage and punchy aesthetics with no crash is something I imagine would be very very popular, and we are all aching to make some version of Superman or Shazam or the Hulk! A re-use of some of the newer punchy animations would also be viable in this case. Devs, please, please consider this!

Edited October 21, 2019 by Rigged

[Megajoule]

My admittedly selfish opinion is that stacking Rage is a bad, broken mechanic that should be gotten rid of, the devs shouldn't clone the set but fix the one we have, and those who want the damage spike without the crash (or one they can ignore/avoid/min-max around) can #%$*ing lump it. 😛

[Sir Myshkin]

11 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

Well.  So SS and TWs stand taller than the rest of the Tank AT melee sets.  (Why wouldn't SS stand so tall when it can double stack Rage?)  The question is, are other melee set fans happy with that?

All this question does is incite chaos. I'm not making the statement that Super Strength is the second strongest set because it's a good thing, I'm stating it as a bad thing, because it sits there alongside another set that is knowingly broken, but lacks a solution to correct. I am also making that statement to bring truth to the situation that so many people have either hid behind, or denied this entire time. I am actively stating it needs to be balanced, which in this case does mean nerf.

 

So please don't try and turn that into anything more, we have enough of it already.

[Haijinx]

SS does so well because its running a lot of +dmg that other sets can't. 

 

TW does it without the +dmg.  That's a bit concerning.  

[Sir Myshkin]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

TW does it without the +dmg.  That's a bit concerning.

Off topic, but I'd be super curious to see how TW would perform if we took away the animation adjustment of Momentum. Leave the trigger and duration there for Follow Through and Whirling to activate, but don't alter the animation times of anything else in the swing of things. I'd wager that brings the set down in a pretty heavy order.

 

Hmm, actually, I think I could. The adjustments would mean Whirling Smash would be higher DPA than Arc at that point, and so would Crushing Blow. I could just run Rend > FT > WS > CB > FT and it'd be as if the variance was removed. Hmm, I might try that.

 

EDIT:

Okay, I don't know if this is better or worse 🤣 But I popped onto Pineapple real quick and tested that chain. 3:09 to take down a Pylon with Hybrid Assault Core on, and then 3:20 without it. I mean, at least that moved it down to be more in line with the "upper" tier of "normal" current Tank times I've explored, but... that's still just running purely on its own merits, and some of those other better performers were still working with the added +Dam and -Res of Bio Armor to get their 3:00 windows.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Sir Myshkin
I tested it.

[Rigged]

10 hours ago, Megajoule said:

My admittedly selfish opinion is that stacking Rage is a bad, broken mechanic that should be gotten rid of, the devs shouldn't clone the set but fix the one we have, and those who want the damage spike without the crash (or one they can ignore/avoid/min-max around) can #%$*ing lump it. 😛

I sympathise with your view, because one of the main issues of Rage is how it interacts with non-SS powers, which are not balanced around it.

 

Considering that Gloom (Ghost Widow PPP) for instance is a better attack in every single way that matters than Hurl, as well as the increased damage from the likes of Burning Aura and Burn (Fiery Aura secondary), the way Rage - specifically, double stacked Rage - interacts with secondaries and epic powers is highly anomalous.

 

But I personally am not particularly in a hurry to nerf. Balance (specifically, overpowered-ness) in CoH is honestly overrated, and so I don't object to the idea that someone out there is doing slightly less than TW numbers while risking death and doing nothing for 10 seconds every minute. What I am concerned with is getting something that is fun for me and I imagine most other people.

 

Edit: I admit that I selfishly would like to see some of the newer animations used for the new set, like Uppercut. This wouldn't likely be doable with a legacy set. Regardless, I am not fussy. I would take either a revamp or a new set as long as I got some version of a high damage crashless punchy power set.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Rigged