WS: human or dual or tri?

[EmmySky]

I have a human form only PB and really enjoy the freedom of not having a slot crunch or slowdown when switching back and forth between multiple forms.  

 

My baby WS is fun and seems more durable vs. quants but should I go human form only and continue to enjoy the no slot crunch and no switch time or do they only really shine with multiple forms?  I never use teleport on any toon so I already have that learning curve (got her SJ as backup lol) and I think multi-form will be a learning curve since I haven't done multi's in 12 years or so.

 

Thanks for your thoughts and input!

[SeraphimKensai]

IMO, I really enjoy 3 form perma eclipse double miring warshades that rain down umbral fire on their targets, refill based on their corpses, and steal the souls of them to fuel your minions.

 

I wouldn't really try a single form version mainly because of double mires.

Edited October 11, 2019 by SeraphimKensai

[quixoteprog]

It is cool to have the flexibility of the forms. I am currently running pretty much the opposite of what you describe by slotting everything BUT the human form. I usually only use human form to stealth up to a spawn and find any Quants, then shift to do fighting. I will usually open up with Dark Nova form to kill the Quant(s). If there is a boss, or something particularly tough, or if I am getting hammered because it is cramped and I can't maneuver, I will shift to Dwarf form to finish things.

 

There are a couple of guides out there titled something like "MF Warshade" and "You're a GD Peacebringer" or some such that are really handy if only for the binds they give you for shifting forms and automatically changing power trays to make it easier.

[EmmySky]

Ok I didnt know about double mires.  That is something to consider.  Also binds for switching forms and cutting down on waiting for my powers to appear will help.  I am leaning towards tri form now instead of human form, although I generally dont care for the dwarf I suppose it has its benefits.

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Redlynne]

Here's the way I approach the three Warshade Forms:

• Human: Dominator(ish) via mez and ranged + PBAoE damage
• Nova: Blaster via ranged attacks
• Dwarf: Tank via melee attacks

As you can see from my latest Leveling Tri-Form Warshade build post, this forms the "core competencies" that I'm trying to build for in each of the three forms, so that I'm not succumbing to the desire to make everything redundant.  That way the three forms serve different purposes and roles such that what one form CAN'T do another form can.

[SeraphimKensai]

Also you'll want your dwarf form, because you can switch into it even while messed and then you've got status protection. It's basically a break free that turns you into a tank.

[Action Sloth]

I'm a big advocate of the human form WS. If you enjoy human form PB play, I think you'll find human form WS even more rewarding.

For reasons I believe I elucidated in the thread in my sig, I don't think double mire is necessary for, or even necessarily an improvement over, human form play, though my HF builds include the possibility of using double mire, and the recent changes do make multiform builds more attractive than they previously were.

 

I will say, it's probably much easier to level as a bi or triform WS, but I still greatly prefer the human form experience for endgame. If you enjoy HF PB, I think you'll really love HF WS, as the lack of a psi hole or crash, and the addition of unlimited HP and endurance from Stygian, really take the Human-Form experience to the next level.

[EmmySky]

5 hours ago, Action Sloth said:

... the addition of unlimited HP and endurance from Stygian, really take the Human-Form experience to the next level.

wait...what?  You start talking unlimited HP and end, you have my attention!   Can you elaborate on that, please?

 

(I see no siggies...and I dont know where the option is for that...I am on my phone so that may hide them?)

[Action Sloth]

Here's a link to a thread where I posted several build options for a high-end HF WS.

 

They're all builds to respec into, not for leveling, but in my main build the WS heal, [Stygian Circle] recharges very slightly over every 8 seconds and provides 45 endurance per body, or functionally limitless endurance - provided you're putting bodies on the floor.

 

I don't remember the heal numbers off the top of my head, but I think it's arguably the strongest self heal in the game in terms of potential personal HP/s. For my build, I believe with just a boss and lieut (maybe even less, I'm not in a position to check atm) you heal for more than your total HP, again, every 8 seconds. 

 

Having 45 end per body on the ground, and and obscene healing on an 8s CD just feels great.

 

Actually I mispoke. With my build it's 45% of your total endurance, so it's a bit more than 45 end per body. It's not a huge increase but worth a note.

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Action Sloth
Fixed a minor wording error in the last paragraph

[EmmySky]

46 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

I have a level 50 Peacebringer and Warshade now. I've used the multibuild system to give them three different builds. Human only, Dwarf, and Nova.

 

Note that by Multibuild I'm taking about going to the trainer and changing my active build. I do not have all three forms on one build.

 

I heard from other players back on live, and now that I have level 50s of my own I can actually see what they were talking about... You will never have enough slots to actually be good in all three forms. I don't understand why anyone does Triform unless it's their first Kheldian. Even with two forms I was spreading slots kinda thin. I had to had to make some sacrifices so some powers weren't quite as good as I wanted them to be so other powers would even be usable at all. For the most part this meant that my human form is weaker with a second form than if I only went Human.

 

You could have both Nova and Dwarf on the same build but if you're going to do that I would recommend only using Nova as a travel power on the Warshade to replace teleport or don't ever bother with your human form. You can't fully slot all of those powers, it's just not going to happen.

 

Now there are Hamidon enhancements and Invention Enhancements which have more than one effect. This might be your only viable option to make up for the lack of over all slot space. On any other character I would say this was optional. You could run a good build only using SOs and anything else is just icing on the cake. But if you're going to triform a Kheldian due to the limited slotting space this is absolutely necessary otherwise at least one of your three forms is going to be too gimped to do anything useful. The fact that these enhancements have two to three effects instead of just one means having them is going to make up for the slots you're missing.

 

Any attack should have a minimum of three slots in it. Accuracy, Damage, and Reduce Endurance cost. This isn't even including other effects like Slow which a lot of Warshade attacks can take as well. Of course if you don't have enough slots to do this with all of your attacks than getting IOs which do all three in one will make up for it. Then you only need one slot to do all three of those things.

 

In my case while my Human only build has enough slots to do all this with SOs, Accurace, Damage, Reduce End Cost, and Debuffs are slotted into every singe attack. The dual form builds I had to remove the debuff slots from the human form. Still got accuracy, damage, end reduce end cost but the human form is slightly weaker because I didn't have space for those debuff slots. Eventually I'll work on getting some better enhancements in there to make up for that loss but for now it's working decently enough. I wouldn't even attempt doing triform unless I had those better enhancements already. Even then I don't really want to try it. I'm kinda happy with my three builds the way they are now. Like I said before anything more at this point is just icing on the cake. 😉 That is to say my builds could still be improved but aren't completely terrible.

I like the idea of multiple builds.  Right now I am leveling her as human because, as you said, slots are too rare I don't want to gimp her before I can access those multi-enhancers.  I have a touch of the altitis so she isn't leveling as fast but she will get there!

[Microcosm]

9 hours ago, RialVestro said:

Note that by Multibuild I'm taking about going to the trainer and changing my active build. I do not have all three forms on one build.

Just fyi, in case you aren't aware, you don't have to go to a trainer to switch builds. You can use the command /selectbuild n where n is the number you want.

 

On slotting triforms, yes, you get more powers than normal  builds so there are fewer slots to spread across them. Multi-aspect IO's do help a lot, but it's also important to be aware of what actually needs more slots and what doesn't. For example, Stygian Circle is a great power, but if you've got some global recharge going it probably doesn't need more than the default slot. It's going to fill up your end and health every time with just a couple defeated enemies around, so don't waste extra slots on it.

 

Another example, for IO'd builds where you've got all your set bonuses flowing, I generally don't add more than a couple slots to the nova AoE attacks and nothing to the single targets. Why? I'm realistically only using Nova in AoE situations, as a mix of Human and Dwarf attacks will do more dps against a single target. Dark Nova gives a tohit buff and its own damage buff of 45%, and if you maintain double mires (which you should be trying to do), let's assume hitting 9 out of the 10 possible enemies with both mires, you have huge amounts of +tohit and end up at +247.5% damage. With the Kheld ATO slotted there's another 13.5% buff in nova.  You have a damage cap of +300% as a warshade, so you will only get benefit from 39% more damage, and realistically nothing from more acc. A single damage IO in those powers will exceed the damage cap for them. I should have enough recharge from my other set bonuses and end recovery from stygian circle that I don't need anything else in Nova attacks, so I can move those slots elsewhere and still have a fully functional Nova form for the use case where it is actually good.

[Doomrider]

2 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Just fyi, in case you aren't aware, you don't have to go to a trainer to switch builds. You can use the command /selectbuild n where n is the number you want.

 

On slotting triforms, yes, you get more powers than normal  builds so there are fewer slots to spread across them. Multi-aspect IO's do help a lot, but it's also important to be aware of what actually needs more slots and what doesn't. For example, Stygian Circle is a great power, but if you've got some global recharge going it probably doesn't need more than the default slot. It's going to fill up your end and health every time with just a couple defeated enemies around, so don't waste extra slots on it.

 

Another example, for IO'd builds where you've got all your set bonuses flowing, I generally don't add more than a couple slots to the nova AoE attacks and nothing to the single targets. Why? I'm realistically only using Nova in AoE situations, as a mix of Human and Dwarf attacks will do more dps against a single target. Dark Nova gives a tohit buff and its own damage buff of 45%, and if you maintain double mires (which you should be trying to do), let's assume hitting 9 out of the 10 possible enemies with both mires, you have huge amounts of +tohit and end up at +247.5% damage. With the Kheld ATO slotted there's another 13.5% buff in nova.  You have a damage cap of +300% as a warshade, so you will only get benefit from 39% more damage, and realistically nothing from more acc. A single damage IO in those powers will exceed the damage cap for them. I should have enough recharge from my other set bonuses and end recovery from stygian circle that I don't need anything else in Nova attacks, so I can move those slots elsewhere and still have a fully functional Nova form for the use case where it is actually good.

Micro gets the award for some of the most often overlooked advice when it comes to slotting.

Many people complain about slot crunch on Triforms... Pay attention to your individual powers enhancement totals (end use/rch/acc/dmg) and their actual effect on the powers total end use per cast, time to recharge, accuracy and dmg dealt... and keep in mind your global bonuses and dmg buff totals while mirred. This is especially important if you're build is already drowning in global recharge bonuses as many build are. You'll find many powers need far less slotting that you think and some don't require anything past the base slot.
 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Doomrider

[EmmySky]

Over-slotting is something I ran into on my farmer before I got some help.  I am still learning which attributes to watch and how to really pare it down on my other toons.  Definitely good advice, thank you!

[Microcosm]

4 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

I was not aware of this. This is like when I found out in game that I could just type /AH instead of actually physically going to Wentworths or the Black Market.

 

One question though. I've renamed my builds, Human, Nova, and Dwarf. I did this so I could easily look and see what build I'm switching to instead of having to remember what number Dwarf is I could just select Dwarf. So will this command still work if I change N to the name I gave the build rather than the number? Like even as I'm typing this I have no idea which build is my Dwarf build. I don't want to hit the command to change builds only to end up switching to the wrong build as there is a timer before I can switch builds again to get the one I actually wanted.

I've not named my builds so I don't know without trying it, but you could make it a macro with the name "Dwarf" when you figure out which number it is. That way it will stay in your tray and you won't have to remember which number it is. (I think you might need to make the macros on each build).

[Microcosm]

3 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

In regards to heal powers. I generally devote more slots to the Warshade than I would a Peacebringer. The reason being the difference in how the powers actually work. Warshades heal off enemies so anything that takes accuracy is going to get accuracy. The heals won't do you any good if they miss their target. There have been several times in the lower levels where I didn't have them slotted yet that missing a heal ended up causing my death. This is an issue unique to Warshades which is why Peacebringers don't need as many slots to have an effective heal handy.

 

Now as to the second part of this post. Nova form is essentially a Blaster while Dwarf form is a Tanker. So I don't know where you're getting this idea that Nova doesn't have good DPS when that's literally the one thing it is good for. And the Damage in Dwarf form sucks. I mean you can still do damage but Dwarfs move much slower compared to your other forms so you're really not getting the Damage Per Second that would get even being fully Human. The main thing Dwarfs are good for is being a damage sponge. They even can survive Void Hunter attacks better than the other forms. Those things are still going to kill you if you don't have a good team to back you up but since they're built to be tanks your damage resistance is much higher.

 

Essentially DPS Nova > Human > Dwarf

 

Damage Resistance Dwarf > Human > Nova (Totally non-existent in Nova form)

Ya that's a good point on the heal at lower levels.

 

For the Nova part, I mean purely for single target damage. Nova is great for AoE damage. But for single target damage it drops in comparison to gravity well and dwarf mire when you look at damage per animation. This is probably only because the devs before shutdown revamped dwarf mire to significantly reduce its animation time in exchange for making it's duration shorter and part of an attack chain. The damage is really good for such a short animation (actually one of the best available to warshades). It actually pays off to use gravity well, then switch to dwarf for mire and a dwarf smite, then back to human for Cross Punch (ideally) or shadow blast before going back into gravity well. You can do more dps against a single target than this, but not by staying in Nova form.

[Doomrider]

17 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Ya that's a good point on the heal at lower levels.

 

For the Nova part, I mean purely for single target damage. Nova is great for AoE damage. But for single target damage it drops in comparison to gravity well and dwarf mire when you look at damage per animation. This is probably only because the devs before shutdown revamped dwarf mire to significantly reduce its animation time in exchange for making it's duration shorter and part of an attack chain. The damage is really good for such a short animation (actually one of the best available to Warshades). It actually pays off to use gravity well, then switch to dwarf for mire and a dwarf smite, then back to human for Cross Punch (ideally) or shadow blast before going back into gravity well. You can do more dps against a single target than this, but not by staying in Nova form.

A shifting ST chain is key. My Shade runs a chain that is roughly Gravity Well, Dwarf Mire, Dwarf Smite, Dwarf Drain, Dwarf Mire, G. Well, and Grav Em (every second rotation). All attacks are proc'd out except for Gravity well. DPS is quite good for Dwarf. I get about 190ish with only 1 target for mires, and anywhere upwards of 250ish+ depending on number of targets for mire. I could never reproduce that with Nova form alone, even with the dmg buff from Nova form I think the damage would pale in comparison.

[Microcosm]

Ya I know it can be difficult to believe because nova is the "damage form", but if you do the math (or test it in game) you'll see what I'm talking about. Damage per animation is the key to "dps". Rotating your highest damage per animation attacks is how you maximize dps until you start getting procs involved. Using Arcanatime (to accurately represent animation times with server ticks), you get a dpa of 74.6 for Gravity Well as the highest available to a warshade. then you've got dwarf mire at 60.2 (I'm rounding, btw), then dwarf smite at 42.8, then cross punch (if with boxing and kick) at 42.2, shadow blast at 39.5, then you get to nova blast at 38.89. If you include the nova damage buff it jumps to 56.4, but that's not really apples to apples because we aren't counting damage from dwarf mire and is not base damage, but whatever. Shifting forms takes a single server tick now, so .132 seconds. If you roll two shifting times into the animation of Gravity Well (to account for going into dwarf once and out), it's still 66.7 dpa, still the strongest in the set so it pays for itself.

 

I've spent a few hours on test server testing single target attack chains against pylons, and what I can tell you is that you will sit there til the end of time trying to take down a pylon in nova form even with a proc build. The best single target damage I've squeezed out of a warshade was with a procced human form, but disallows forms and doesn't do good AoE damage. A good compromise (to me) is to use one of these shifting chains so I can keep all the form utility and AoE. You should try it out; you can instant level yourself to 50 on test server and get whatever IOs/incarnates you need for free.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Microcosm

[Hopestar]

I'm noticing a pattern of something that needs to be mentioned, no one is using Ebon Eye despite it being so good. Ebon Eye does more damage than Shadow Blast when used in Nova form by the way (approximately 63 vs SB's 58 DPA in arcanatime, scaling higher with IOs because of a higher base damage {77.58 vs 66.98}). In my experience, generally triform is best to stick with D.Mire > N.Emanation > Well > N.Ebon > N.Emanation (the fact Dark Nova Detonation has a 2.5 seconds activation for no reason is a joke), repeat for single target unless you're only fighting 1 target then replace D.Mire and Emanation with Well > N.Ebon > N.Blast > N.Ebon. Despite what Mids says, D.Mire isn't that good of damage to single target because it's calculating max targets into the DPA. After 2 mires the group of minions and lieutenants are usually down unless it's +4 so Unchain/Quasar doesn't get used until the next group and even further still if you've been summoning your pets, there's only the EB or AV to fight now. Obviously you still want your Dwarf attacks to be good because unless you're immune to crowd control, you'll be in Dwarf form a lot against enemies that have holds and sleeps.

[Microcosm]

5 hours ago, Hopestar said:

I'm noticing a pattern of something that needs to be mentioned, no one is using Ebon Eye despite it being so good. Ebon Eye does more damage than Shadow Blast when used in Nova form by the way (approximately 63 vs SB's 58 DPA in arcanatime, scaling higher with IOs because of a higher base damage {77.58 vs 66.98}). In my experience, generally triform is best to stick with D.Mire > N.Emanation > Well > N.Ebon > N.Emanation (the fact Dark Nova Detonation has a 2.5 seconds activation for no reason is a joke), repeat for single target unless you're only fighting 1 target then replace D.Mire and Emanation with Well > N.Ebon > N.Blast > N.Ebon. Despite what Mids says, D.Mire isn't that good of damage to single target because it's calculating max targets into the DPA. After 2 mires the group of minions and lieutenants are usually down unless it's +4 so Unchain/Quasar doesn't get used until the next group and even further still if you've been summoning your pets, there's only the EB or AV to fight now. Obviously you still want your Dwarf attacks to be good because unless you're immune to crowd control, you'll be in Dwarf form a lot against enemies that have holds and sleeps.

Ebon eye in Nova is indeed the best thing you've got in Nova, but it's not as good as dwarf mire per animation. What you said about mids is not right unless you've got a strange version of mids with a bug. I just went on test server to check, dwarf mire behaves exactly as mids says it does. If you include the 45% damage buff in Nova then Nova eye just barely squeezes past dwarf mire, but as soon as you add any damage enhancements it goes back to favoring dwarf mire (per animation) because that 45% isn't enhanced. Couple that with the fact that the mire buffs all attacks following it, and it's no contest. Now that doesn't mean you can't do both, if you want to pay the price of an extra form shift like you have above. Really the most important thing for single target damage is to make sure you prioritize gravity well.

[Machariel]

For my money I'd go one of two ways on a Warshade: Either human-only (and I'd respec into this at 50) or Tri-Form, always form-shifting, MF Warshade.

 

Human-only:

+Able to run toggles (makes hitting defense values a lot easier + inky aspect + damage aura)

+Much less stressful to play, not reliant on keybinds.

+Better able to leverage damage procs in your build (probably better for sustained ST damage which is a weakness of any warshade)

- Fewer utility powers in build

- No mez protection outside of incarnates

 

Tri-form MF pros:

+The AoE damage is great.  Double mire is 👌

+LOTS of utility powers. Taunt on dwarf form can help keep pets alive.

+Really strong when exemplared

-Very busy playstyle, can be overwhelming.  Heavily reliant on learning keybinds.

 

I prefer the Triform, especially once I've gotten the hang of the keybinds.

 

 

[EmmySky]

I keybind almost everything so that isn't an issue for me.  Good overview...thanks!