Give Defensive Powersets with clicky mez protections the option to have an extra auto cast (just for the mez protect)

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Actually, that is the very definition of being ignorant about it.  I absolutely have misread things in my life, and when I do, I own up to my mistake and move on.  I don't get all defensive and try to cast my shortcomings off on those that called me out on it.  

Are you actually paying attention? I'll quote myself.

 

15 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Cause I totally didnt rread that? lol.

Tricky I know, but I was totally owning up to my mistake.

 

And then your snarky JA comment.

1 hour ago, biostem said:

It is not my problem that a person discussing a change or addition to game mechanics doesn't even understand the terminology.

 

[FDR's Think Tank]

Toggles are a matter of resource management. If you aren't careful, your stamina can crash and leave you extremely vulnerable.

 

Click Timers are a matter of Memory Management. If you don't renew, you can be exposed at a critical moment. While Auto Casting removes the entire Crux of the struggle, people would likely script around it anyway.

[biostem]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

Are you actually paying attention? I'll quote myself.

 

Tricky I know, but I was totally owning up to my mistake.

 

And then your snarky JA comment.

 

I'll make it simple:  You didn't read it - therefore you lacked knowledge of it:

 

ignorance

[ ig-ner-uh ns ]SHOW IPA

EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGIN

SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR ignorance ON THESAURUS.COM

---

noun

the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

[MunkiLord]

I'm not a fan of definitions that include a variation of the word being defined.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I'm not a fan of definitions that include a variation of the word being defined.

That's because "ignorance" is a derivation of the word "ignorant".  Look up "ignorant" if it bothers you - that's just how the dictionary is...

[MunkiLord]

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

That's because "ignorance" is a derivation of the word "ignorant".  Look up "ignorant" if it bothers you - that's just how the dictionary is...

I'm not ignorant of how it works.

[GM Sijin]

Back on topic por favor.

 

As for this:

13 hours ago, Bartacus said:

substantial advantages? it has exactly one advantage: you don't have to run another toggle that costs end.

Gross simplification. Click mez protection powers:

1. Cannot be shut off, short of the player being defeated
2. Cost significantly to slightly less endurance over time, depending on total recharge
3. Keep their effects active in the case that you are affected by a hard control, where toggle effects are suppressed for the duration of the hard control
4. Can be stacked for higher protection, on top of doubling up any other effects they grant (this is actually fairly important for shield defense in particular)
5. Can be activated while under the effects of control effects

They have other disadvantages than "have to remember" as well, such as the endurance requirement coming in larger chunks and requiring investment in recharge to make permanent.

 

Overall I don't personally think there's a real need to add another auto power activation toggle, but I certainly wouldn't complain if they opted to do so. Having it limited to only those who have an active defense is probably a lot more work than it would be worth, though. Better to just let it rain, as it were.

[Bartacus]

8 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

Back on topic por favor.

 

As for this:

Gross simplification. Click mez protection powers:

1. Cannot be shut off, short of the player being defeated
2. Cost significantly to slightly less endurance over time, depending on total recharge
3. Keep their effects active in the case that you are affected by a hard control, where toggle effects are suppressed for the duration of the hard control
4. Can be stacked for higher protection, on top of doubling up any other effects they grant (this is actually fairly important for shield defense in particular)
5. Can be activated while under the effects of control effects

They have other disadvantages than "have to remember" as well, such as the endurance requirement coming in larger chunks and requiring investment in recharge to make permanent.

 

Overall I don't personally think there's a real need to add another auto power activation toggle, but I certainly wouldn't complain if they opted to do so. Having it limited to only those who have an active defense is probably a lot more work than it would be worth, though. Better to just let it rain, as it were.

I think some of these "advantages" you're stating are inherent to other toggle mez protects as well, though. Because of the change to toggles #3 isn't really relevant anymore... since toggles don't drop when you're held unless they affect the enemies. #5 isn't relevant because if you have the toggle on in an alternative pool, you won't have to worry about doing that to begin with. #1 kind of goes back to the advantage of end drain... in that a toggle with end drain is only coming off if you run out of end. Which, is kind of the same advantage of not having to worry about a toggle that costs end. 

I will concede that stacking the effects is a significant advantage, although I don't think I've run into many situations that I'd have been held with a toggle mez protect anyway.

 

That said, You're completely right. I don't think there is a need to add another auto power activation toggle just for mez protect... but I do think it would be a nice QoL change, allowing sets with these mez protects to have more of a "choice" when it comes to where they want to auto cast. 

 

But, I don't know much about the coding in the game and what would be difficult and what would not be. If that is a significant amount of work for a small QoL change, then sure let it be. But, if it's not, it seems like a good change.

[Steampunkette]

Different sets have different costs.

 

Look at the 3 sets with Click Mez Protection. All of them grant Positional or Vectored Defense. All of them grant protection to all three Vectors.

 

Any control effect is going to be targeted. Generally from Range or Ranged AoE for soft-controls (Sleeps, Immobs, Fears, Confusions) and melee or ranged tossup for hard controls (Hold, Stun)

 

You dodge most of them by rote. Especially once your Defense gets near, or to, Softcap. At that point you don't even really -need- mez protection that much. At that point I typically use my Mez Protection as a Break Free unless it's a Shield Defense character and then the Mez Protection provided Defense Debuff Resistance which I need.

 

Are toggles more consistent? Arguably, sure. But clicks are more powerful in almost every respect and are tied to sets with more complete protection out of the box. Toggles? Typically used by Resistance-Centric powersets that get hit by EVERY MEZ because they don't have decent Defense out of the box. They need constant protection or they'd be screwed. Defense-Builds with all three vectors? 

 

Not so much.

[QuiJon]

22 hours ago, biostem said:

Go fight some end-draining enemies without a lot of blues on hand, and tell me how things go when all your toggles get knocked off.  Yes, those using click-type mez protection powers are susceptible to recharge reductions, but while the click-types can be made to overlap out of the box, (thus combating those -rech effects), you cannot slot for end drain protection...

I have a savage/WP brute that I stand in the middle of mobs of +3-4 carnies all the time and take them down in mass and my end bar never drops below like 2/3rds. So it is possible to build a character that can handle it. 

[GM Sijin]

12 hours ago, Bartacus said:

I think some of these "advantages" you're stating are inherent to other toggle mez protects as well, though. Because of the change to toggles #3 isn't really relevant anymore... since toggles don't drop when you're held unless they affect the enemies. #5 isn't relevant because if you have the toggle on in an alternative pool, you won't have to worry about doing that to begin with. #1 kind of goes back to the advantage of end drain... in that a toggle with end drain is only coming off if you run out of end. Which, is kind of the same advantage of not having to worry about a toggle that costs end.

Toggle effects are turned off for the duration of a hard control, meaning a toggle mez protection is more vulnerable than a click because their mez protection, if overwhelmed, shuts off until they are no longer mez'd. It's certainly less damaging than it once was where the toggles themselves toggled off, but toggles are still impacted by hard controls where clicks are not.

 

As for #5, it's true that it isn't a significant advantage but there are rare situations where it does come up. "Oops, forgot my toggles." being the prime example. It's honestly more of a counter from the 'big' negative of having to remember to activate the click than it is an advantage over toggles, I will admit.

[Vanden]

Personally, having spent time leveling a Ninjitsu Stalker, I'm never rolling another clicky mez protection character again. I absolutely hate the way the power's always going off unexpectedly, interrupting my combos, eating up my Build Up time, and stopping me from using heals and other emergency powers.

[Hero_of_Light]

On 10/24/2019 at 6:20 PM, GM Sijin said:

Toggle effects are turned off for the duration of a hard control, meaning a toggle mez protection is more vulnerable than a click because their mez protection, if overwhelmed, shuts off until they are no longer mez'd. It's certainly less damaging than it once was where the toggles themselves toggled off, but toggles are still impacted by hard controls where clicks are not.

 

As for #5, it's true that it isn't a significant advantage but there are rare situations where it does come up. "Oops, forgot my toggles." being the prime example. It's honestly more of a counter from the 'big' negative of having to remember to activate the click than it is an advantage over toggles, I will admit.

I think the variety is good,  and I enjoy the aspects both have brought to the sperate power sets I've used, like super reflex or will power.