Splitting the Fighting Pool into Off and Def Pools.

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

It's power creep when the third slot stops being a tax. Feat taxes (or in this case, power selection taxes) are a tool for keeping more powerful options balanced.

And IOs can render certain power pool selections redundant and/or meaningless, not to mention Incarnates.  So long as there is content that is designed for it, "power creep" is not a bad thing - it's what sells.

[Crysta Clear]

I get it. You hate IO's. Whatever.

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

I get it. You hate IO's. Whatever.

That's.... not what I said - at all.  Not even close.  You keep going on and on with the old "power creep" and "power tax" response as if it is gospel and will somehow destroy the game.  It's more than abundantly clear power creep is not a problem.  No question IO sets and Incarnates are power creep and both were fantastic additions to the game and made the game better.  There is no "power tax" if IO set bonuses can grant the same (or better) than what a pool selection will or an Incarnate selection negates the need to slot for end reduction. 

[Crysta Clear]

That's still no excuse to add these little things up that won't make any good, sweeping changes to keep the game's systems fresh. The OP is begging for a buff and that's all it is.

 

"Can I trade Kick for some free damage resist?" is literally everything this suggestion is.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Crysta Clear said:

That's still no excuse to add these little things up that won't make any good, sweeping changes to keep the game's systems fresh. The OP is begging for a buff and that's all it is.

 

"Can I trade Kick for some free damage resist?" is literally everything this suggestion is.

That's not at all what was said, they are just talking about adding more variety.  Which would open the door to more build diversity.  The slot limit limits what could be done anyway, but if it allows you to build a different way to achieve the same result, I don't see the problem here.

 

I don't know why you can't understand that.

[Crysta Clear]

I can't understand that because it's literally not true. Under the current rules, you need Kick, Tough and Weave. Under this suggestion, you would have Tough, Insulated or Resistant, and Weave.

 

Kick is a tax, but Insulated or Resistant would give you one more free enhancement slot, because then you wouldn't need to drop a second one in Tough to slot your other defense global.

 

Normally, in order to save that slot, you need to have a Resist power in your primary or secondary somewhere in order to use its default slot for a global.

 

The OP is asking for three power selections to go from being worth 11.25% all defense and 10.5% smashing/lethal resist, at the cost of 4 enhancement slots (3 in Weave and 1 in Tough), to those same three power selections being worth 11.25% all defense, 10.5% smashing/lethal resist, and your choice of 10.5% fire/cold resist or 10.5% energy/negative resist, at the cost of only 3 enhancement slots (spent on Weave).

 

That is absolutely asking to be given something for nothing.

 

Oh, and having Tough (and presumably one of the other resist toggles, remember every pool has two initial options, not one initial option) as an entry tier power would mean that you can take it them at 4th and 6th levels, causing you to have your free, costless 6% defense when exemplared down to 1st level, instead of a minimum of 9th.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

The OP is asking for three power selections to go from being worth 11.25% all defense and 10.5% smashing/lethal resist, at the cost of 4 enhancement slots (3 in Weave and 1 in Tough), to those same three power selections being worth 11.25% all defense, 10.5% smashing/lethal resist, and your choice of 10.5% fire/cold resist or 10.5% energy/negative resist, at the cost of only 3 enhancement slots (spent on Weave).

We used to have to waste 3 powers to get Acrobatics too.  Now IOs do what wasting 3 power choices does.   You're also assuming everyone builds the way you do.  I can assure you, they don't.

[Crysta Clear]

That's completely irrelevant, Shard. It doesn't matter how I, or anyone else, tend to build, only that this can be built this way, and thus it will be. I guarantee you, Kick/Tough/Weave is one of the most popular choices around for three pool power selections. The OP is asking for an already very powerful and meta option to be buffed even farther, just because of a misguided and irrational upset at having to pay a feat tax to get there.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Crysta Clear said:

It doesn't matter how I, or anyone else, tend to build, only that this can be built this way, and thus it will be.

So what?

[Crysta Clear]

Right, you're a brick wall. I have outlined already the objective mathematics of why this request is begging for a buff to something that doesn't need a buff, and you think you get to argue with objective mathematics. There is no room for opinion, yours, mine, or anyone else's, in mathematics. The numbers say what the numbers say.

 

I am leaving this thread now, and mentally reminding myself that your opinions are not worth considering in the future.

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Right, you're a brick wall. I have outlined already the objective mathematics of why this request is begging for a buff to something that doesn't need a buff, and you think you get to argue with objective mathematics. There is no room for opinion, yours, mine, or anyone else's, in mathematics. The numbers say what the numbers say.

 

I am leaving this thread now, and mentally reminding myself that your opinions are not worth considering in the future.

 

And people say this is such a friendly community.  😁

 

Math is great and all, but what exactly is the mathematical formula for "fun"? Math may say it is "power creep", but that doesn't make it fun.  Math says Ice Melee and Battle Axe are on par with other sets for Scrappers.... but we don't see many of them, do we? 

 

And to be honest, the only people I see insulting others on these forums are those who are not open to discussion or want their ideas challenged or debated.  Discussion is a healthy thing and that's what these forums are for. 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Crysta Clear]

This is not a change that is likely to increase anyone's fun. Fun is derived from difficulty, challenge, and overcoming that challenge. Making the game easier makes it less fun.

 

It's not an insult, it's an observation. Please have a nice day, and enjoy being blocked.

[Lines]

Man, people have really chosen some strange hills to die on.

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

This is not a change that is likely to increase anyone's fun. Fun is derived from difficulty, challenge, and overcoming that challenge. Making the game easier makes it less fun.

I really don't think you are speaking for everyone with that since you are making the (very false) assumption everyone shares your definition of what fun is. 

[HelBlaiz]

I think splitting into an offensive and defensive pool could be neat. If the issue is in offering another resist power, maybe the first tier powers could instead be an auto power that buffs max hp and the free break free idea (15 second duration on a two minute cool down?). For the offensive pool, I'd love to see it customizable to be either unarmed or with a weapon. I have a rad/pain corruptor who would love to smack things with a mace.

Edited October 28, 2019 by HelBlaiz
darn auto correct

[GladDog]

First off, I agree that this is a good idea.  Second off, the OP has made a pair of pools that have too much power.  Third off, keep in mind that the Homecoming team is for the most part (maybe completely; IDK) unpaid.  Any suggestions that has a chance of being put in the game has to be simple.  Perhaps this would be a better implementation...

 

FIGHTING

T1 - Boxing, Kick

T2 - Air Superiority, Hurl (some form of ranged attack should be added to the pool)

T3 - Crosscut

 

All of these powers exist in-game.  T1 & T3 are already in the Fighting pool.  The T2 powers would need to be renamed, and Hurl would likely require a little balancing.

 

SURVVABILITY

T1 - Insulation - same as Invul/ Resist Elements with 5.2% (6.5% for tanks) resistance  EM Shield - same as Invul Resist Energies with 5.2% (6.5% for tanks) resistance

T2 - Tough, Weave

T3 - Siphon Life from the Dark Melee set, but with damage and healing scaled down.

 

BTW, how does Weave soft cap defenses?  AFAIK, it is a whopping 3.75% defense to all damage.  And it is an expensive toggle at .32 end per sec.

[HelBlaiz]

I think it's less that Weave softcaps you as much as it's one part of the whole needed to get you there, and it's vital for many builds. 3% defense doesn't sound like a lot, but I see people pointing out that every bit of defense (and resist) you get makes every bit more you get more valuable. Going from 0 defense to 3 cuts incoming damage by six percent or so. Going from 42% to 45% essentially cuts incoming damage by half.

[Crysta Clear]

I posted the numbers for Tough and Weave earlier in this thread, especially as it relates to archetypes that don't have access to defense or resist powers in most of their primary and secondary sets, such as Blasters and Dominators. Tough is worth 6% defense, because it is the only resist power such an archetype will get, and it gives you a place to slot the two +3% Defense globals that are in Resist IO sets. And Weave is worth, at base, 3.5% for Blasters, whose defense scale is the lowest. This brings it up to 5.25% when slotted out, because the Defense ED cutoff starts at +50% of a power's effect.

 

So in total, Tough and Weave are worth 11.25% to all defenses, for a Blaster or a Dominator, possibly slightly more for the Dominator because I think their Weave starts at 3.75% (don't quote me on that). That 11.25% is exactly one fourth of the softcap, which is 45%, and it works for any defense build, whether you're going positional for better coverage (positional defenses' only hole is autohit abilities) and relying on sets and pool powers to get there, or typed in order to reach it easier with Scorpion Shield in your epic pool.

[GladDog]

By the way, I do want to mention that power creep can be a devastating problem.  Back in Issue 2 of the live game, Fire tanks used Healing Flames for Stun & Sleep resist, Burn for Hold and Immobilize resist, And mostly they took Acrobatics for KB resist.  The only AoE taunt was Provoke, which cost 2 powers from a power pool that was needed for no other power.  The reward for all of the micromanaging required to properly play a Fire Tank was the highest DPS available - by far - to a tank.  And there was a lot of micromanaging.  Then in Issue 3 The following changes occurred.  Taunt became an AoE - no need to take the Presence Pool, a boon for all tanks.  All mez resist except KB (none) and Disorient (put in Fire Shield) was moved to Plasma Armor.  Burn damage was slightly attenuated, but the recycle rate was improved.  Healing flames had the heal improved, stacking Toxic resistance added, and still had the Disorient resistance in it (I don't think this was intentional).  Now, Fire Tanks were easy mode.  About 1 in 4 new characters was a Fire Tank.  But all of us old fogey Fire Tankers knew it was only a matter of time before the nerf hammer fell.  And it fell hard, basically ruining the class.  They increased the fear in Burn to the point that even with two tanks taunting, the bad guys would not stay in the patch.  With the only real reason to take a Fire Tank removed, they disappeared off of the face of Paragon City.

 

So yeah, any power increase must be CAREFULLY measured, and usually there has to be some sort of counter to keep the increase from ruining everything.

[ShardWarrior]

20 minutes ago, GladDog said:

By the way, I do want to mention that power creep can be a devastating problem. 

Not sure anyone said it can't be a problem, just that it isn't always automatically a problem.

[Cooltastic]

On 10/28/2019 at 10:41 AM, Crysta Clear said:

That's still no excuse to add these little things up that won't make any good, sweeping changes to keep the game's systems fresh. The OP is begging for a buff and that's all it is.

 

"Can I trade Kick for some free damage resist?" is literally everything this suggestion is.

Boy did you read into things wrong. I could care less about buffing things. I just want pools that offer more and designed in a way to give you what your looking for out of them for your character concept. If I wanna make a tankier character I got with Guarded Pool. If I wanna make a ranged build who can throw down up close with melee combos when need be I'll go with the Fighting Pool. This isn't some evil plan to make more OP characters as I could care less about that. Shoot, I only just hit lv 50 for the first time since coming back. I have over 50+ characters. I haven't bought built a single character with IO sets yet.

[Cooltastic]

23 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

This is not a change that is likely to increase anyone's fun. Fun is derived from difficulty, challenge, and overcoming that challenge. Making the game easier makes it less fun.

 

It's not an insult, it's an observation. Please have a nice day, and enjoy being blocked.

Noooooooo, how could more power choice increase anyone's fun! What a fool I am!

[Cooltastic]

On 10/28/2019 at 12:30 PM, Crysta Clear said:

I can't understand that because it's literally not true. Under the current rules, you need Kick, Tough and Weave. Under this suggestion, you would have Tough, Insulated or Resistant, and Weave.

 

Kick is a tax, but Insulated or Resistant would give you one more free enhancement slot, because then you wouldn't need to drop a second one in Tough to slot your other defense global.

 

Normally, in order to save that slot, you need to have a Resist power in your primary or secondary somewhere in order to use its default slot for a global.

 

The OP is asking for three power selections to go from being worth 11.25% all defense and 10.5% smashing/lethal resist, at the cost of 4 enhancement slots (3 in Weave and 1 in Tough), to those same three power selections being worth 11.25% all defense, 10.5% smashing/lethal resist, and your choice of 10.5% fire/cold resist or 10.5% energy/negative resist, at the cost of only 3 enhancement slots (spent on Weave).

 

That is absolutely asking to be given something for nothing.

 

Oh, and having Tough (and presumably one of the other resist toggles, remember every pool has two initial options, not one initial option) as an entry tier power would mean that you can take it them at 4th and 6th levels, causing you to have your free, costless 6% defense when exemplared down to 1st level, instead of a minimum of 9th.

Ok, well instead of just putting up a wall of stubborness and chanting "power creep" what if you put the same effort into figuring out a way it could work without causing these issues.

 

But I'll go ahead and take a crack at it. Let me know what you think.

 

Guarded Pool:

     Tier 1 - Tough, Readiness(AUTO: Small HP Absorption buff that only applies at full health, offers KB prot/res until the grey bar depletes)

     Tier 2 - Insulated(fire,ice,energy and negative energy damage resistance all at half the value Tough gives Smash/Lethal)

     Tier 3 - Weave(This power is reduced in effectiveness unless you have taken Readiness. Being ready for a fight increases your change to dodge attacks)

     Tier 4 -Alert(psi damage, sleep, and recharge debuff resistance)

                 Fit(toxic damage, stun, and slow debuff resistance)

 

So by adding "Readiness" we now have 2 Tier 1 powers like other pools. Readiness is a must have if you want to get the max benefit out of "Weave." So now if you want to get that maximum amount of Defense from IO resistance ehancements in Tough and Weave combined you will still need to use 3 power slots. Yes, you will be able to take Tough a bit earlier than you can now, but who's staying in those early levels long enough that it will really matter? Do people even start slotting set bonus IO's that early? I don't think it should be that big of an issue.

 

I also decided to combine the Fire/Ice and Energy/Neg into one power that offers all of those resistance but at a reduced benefit. This keeps the total power selections to 6 and follows the pool format better. Alert and Fit would each offer similar benefits to Tough though.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Cooltastic

[HelBlaiz]

One of the concerns seems to be that two resist powers allows for saving one enhancement slot for using the +3% defense IOs. I know every slot counts in high performance builds, but it's a bit strict for my taste. Still keeping it to only one resist power and keeping Tough to tier 2 would avoid the major complaints.

Edited October 29, 2019 by HelBlaiz
editted for clarity

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 10/28/2019 at 7:41 AM, Crysta Clear said:

That's still no excuse to add these little things up that won't make any good, sweeping changes to keep the game's systems fresh. The OP is begging for a buff and that's all it is.

 

"Can I trade Kick for some free damage resist?" is literally everything this suggestion is.

Pardon but you seem to not relize you are clearly putting words into the OPs mouth and that is very much against this forums rules. You nor anyone else gets to say what the intent behind the post is. The poster is clear in their reason being about diversity so that those wanting to just have more attacks have that as an option and those wanting more defensive tools have that option. Because you see kick as a throw away power your position that it is a power tax is just that a personal view and not a fact. many take kick, slot kick, and use kick as part of their active attack cycle. My melee peace bringer for an example.