Splitting the Fighting Pool into Off and Def Pools.

[Cooltastic]

This is an idea pulled from another thread, decided to make a thread dedicated to discussing it specifically. So how would you go about doing it? Would you even like to see it done? Personally I'm in the more available pool choices the better. Here's my take on it...

 

Fighting Pool:

     Tier 1 - Boxing(disorients), Kick(knocks down)

     Tier 2 - Hook(cone punch)(chance to disorient), Spinning kick(cone kick)(knocks back)(3 target max on both)

     Tier 3 - Determination(a 1min damage/To-hit/recharge buff with a 10min cooldown which also grants hold, immobalize, and knockback protection for 30s of the powers duration) (can also be used while under any status effect to break the effect) (activation animation could be slamming your fists together like a boxer getting ready to fight)

                 KO(a devastating ST attack when enemy is at 50% or lower HP, does less damage the more health they have)(has both punch and kick animation options)

 

Guarded Pool:

     Tier 1 - Insulated(fire and ice damage resistance), Resistant(energy and negative energy damage resistance)

     Tier 2 - Tough, Weave

     Tier 3 - Alert(psi damage, sleep, and recharge debuff resistance)

                 Fit(toxic damage, stun, and slow debuff resistance)

 

 

EDIT: All the Fighting Pool attacks would still get the 15%-30% damage buff, but the buffs are applied when picking your first Tier 2 and Tier 3 ability from the Pool.

         All the abilities suggested in the Guard Pool are toggles and would cost endurance to run. So the idea is the pick the one's that will best guard your weak spots.

 

 

EDIT: NEW CHANGES MADE TO SUGGESTION

 

Fighting Pool:

     Tier 1 - Boxing(disorients), Kick(knocks down)

     Tier 2 - Hook(cone punch)(chance to disorient), Spinning kick(cone kick)(knocks back)(3 target max on both)

     Tier 3 - KO(a devastating ST attack when enemy is at 50% or lower HP, does less damage the more health they have)(has both punch and kick animation options)

     Tier 4 - Determination(a 30sec damage/To-hit/recharge buff with a 5min cooldown which also grants disorient, immobalize, and knockback protection for the same duration) (can also be used while under any status effect to break the effect) (activation animation could be slamming your fists together like a boxer getting ready to fight)

 

Guarded Pool:

     Tier 1 - Tough

     Tier 2 - Insulated(fire and ice damage resistance), Resistant(energy and negative energy damage resistance)

     Tier 3 - Weave 

     Tier 4 -Alert(psi damage, sleep, and recharge debuff resistance)

                 Fit(toxic damage, stun, and slow debuff resistance)

 

Guarded Pool:

     Tier 1 - Tough, Readiness(AUTO: Small HP Absorption buff that only applies at full health, offers KB prot/res until the grey bar depletes)

     Tier 2 - Insulated(fire,ice,energy and negative energy damage resistance all at half the value Tough gives Smash/Lethal)

     Tier 3 - Weave(This power is reduced in effectiveness unless you have taken Readiness. Being ready for a fight increases your change to dodge attacks)

     Tier 4 -Alert(psi damage, sleep, and recharge debuff resistance)

                 Fit(toxic damage, stun, and slow debuff resistance)

Edited October 29, 2019 by Cooltastic

[Crysta Clear]

Power creep is still bad in this thread too.

[Razor Cure]

I quite like most of these ideas, even if just from a theme standpoint. I think the main issue with the fighting pool (like you present it above) is that i STILL would never ever take it.

On non melee toons, why would I would boring, weak (ish) melee attacks? I'd want something ranged (fire blast epic) or strong (total focus epic)..which we already have access to.

On my melees..i still wouldnt want any attack they werent actual in my primary, for theme, aesthetic and the 'principle' of the thing. Also, just about every melee set can get a decent attack chain going from within itself.

 

I do like the guarded pool though. Maybse if the insulted/resistant ones were exclusive toggles, so you had the open of gaining a bit more def/res vs whatever you were fighting. Fighting cot? fire/cold res. Fighting freaks? Energy res.

[Crysta Clear]

You take it because Weave is the best pool power around for softcapping defenses. And Tough is an early (read-- exemplar-friendly) option for slotting your two defense globals that go into resist powers. Kick is a small price to pay for that amazing amount of defense.

 

The fighting pool attacks are situationally useful for archetypes with few attacks in their primary and secondary sets -- especially Controllers and Masterminds, who often lack real damaging options for their own activations -- Controllers tend to have holds and low-damage DoTs, with only one high damaging power like Tornado or something at mid-levels (and only then when slotted with procs), and Masterminds tend not to have much worth spending actions on after they summon and buff their pets, because their in-set attacks are terrible. The synergies between the three fighting pool attacks make them attractive options for those archetypes.

 

Removing the prereqs or even making the prereqs more generally useful, instead of situationally useful, is blatant power creep and needs to be shot down.

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Razor Cure]

7 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Removing the prereqs or even making the prereqs more generically useful thank kick, is blatant power creep and needs to be shot down.

IOs, new power sets (bio, rad, titan, time) and Incarnates all say a big, fat Hi.

Should we ditch all of the above, cause they were so much more awesome that what came before?

How about the power creep in things like an aoe placate and -res, fly and tp combined, mez prot for anyone?

Letting people NOT take a melee attack than wont be used in like 90% of cases (usually giving those builds ONE extra power, with no extra slots for said power) is gonna break then game? Most would be taking more leadership/stealth powers, as gamblers Mules, extra travel powers, or other powers for 'fun" (taking powers for fun, what a concept. then might did it the sorcery pool, or Will, cause it fits their concept more than a useless kick) or prim/sec powers than dont require slots (self rezzers, team rez, buffs).

That one extra power. Game goes boom!

Edited October 24, 2019 by Razor Cure

[Crysta Clear]

Previous power creep does not excuse additional power creep. Suck up your missing power slot or don't take the fighting pool at all. You're asking to be given something for nothing -- Tough and Weave put together are good enough to be worth three selections instead of two, for a lot of people. Including myself. Being forced to make meaningful choices when building your character is important.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Razor Cure]

6 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

You're asking to be given something for nothing

Ahh. Like Fly and TP combined in Sorcery?

Also, it totally isnt nothing, since I would be using the same number of power picks and slots on Tough/Weave as I was anyway. Only Id have an extra pick to get something I'd use, instead of something I NEVER have on my power trays.

I am asking not too have to take a shit power to get some good ones. If it was less shit, I'd be happy with that.

6 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Being forced to make meaningful choices when building your character is important.

Oh yes, wanna regress yourself back to Power Poll Fitness then? That would give you even more meaningful choices.

 

6 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Previous power creep does not excuse additional power creep.

And yet..it KEEPS happening.

 

Let's agree to disagree.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Razor Cure

[Crysta Clear]

None of those things are even relevant to this discussion. You are making a choice when you choose Mystic Flight, and that choice is to not be taking the far better Flight pool with a defense power in it, that is also a more maneuverable flight for battle with cheaper endurance cost, because if you're going to take Hover, then why spend another pool selection on Mystic Flight? Translocation is not even a benefit in terms of speed -- its only real use is to spend 11 endurance to stop without drifting so you can use a snipe or assassin strike or something.... which you could do for free with Hover.

 

Fitness being inherent is an old change, and thus, old power creep. Which, again, does not excuse new power creep. If you make a mistake, why does that make future commissions of that mistake suddenly 'okay?'

 

Placing Tough and Weave that deep into the pool was very likely a deliberate balance decision for offering a defensive pool power with such a high scale.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Megajoule]

6 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Let's agree to disagree.

/jranger

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Fitness being inherent is an old change, and thus, old power creep. Which, again, does not excuse new power creep. If you make a mistake, why does that make future commissions of that mistake suddenly 'okay?'

I would disagree that making the fitness pool inherent was a mistake.  Power creep is also not necessarily not an issue when you have content being designed specifically for it.  Problem here is that there is very little content made for fully pimped out incarnates. 

[Razor Cure]

Honestly curious Crysta. HOW can we get any possible additions to the game..that aren't power creep in some way? New mechanics, new combos, new IOs, new pools..It will all be better than what came before in some way? Like power sets with Absorb mechanics. None of the old stuff have that. Are these new sets 100% balanced, even with the new stuff? Are they somehow muted, in some ways, to counterbalance the creep?

If the response to any proposed change is just ' cant have power creep,' (and really, it goes both ways, a nerf, or balance adjustment downwards, would still be power creep, just in reverse) why even bother?

[Crysta Clear]

The response to any proposed change isn't 'can't have power creep,' that's only the response to proposed changes that are just literally straight upgrades with no accompanying downsides. Especially in an area like this one, where the pool in question is already one of the strongest and most popular power pools, even with the Kick prerequisite.

 

I understand that no~one likes to be told that their idea is a bad one, but when there is an objective balance reason why your idea is a bad one, maybe you should just suck it up and accept the fact that maths are more objective than you are?

 

Maybe next time you'll think through your idea more before you post it.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[ShardWarrior]

36 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

The response to any proposed change isn't 'can't have power creep,' that's only the response to proposed changes that are just literally straight upgrades with no accompanying downsides.

If this were true, there would never have been IOs or Incarnates - both of which made the game better.  Stagnation is just as bad - if not more so - than perceived power creep. 

[Crysta Clear]

I don't think 'stagnation' means 'kick as a prerequisite,' though. That's pretty disingenuous to claim.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Crysta Clear said:

I don't think 'stagnation' means 'kick as a prerequisite,' though. That's pretty disingenuous to claim.

I never made any claims about kick at all.  What I suggested was sticking to the "can't have (perceived) power creep because of balance maths" doesn't necessarily work either.  The game can indeed get "straight up upgrades with no accompanying downsides" and be better for it.  IOs and Incarnates are evidence of that. 

[Zepp]

While I do not think this is a good idea, I do agree that the Ancillary Power Pools do need a revamp too bad nobody wants to write a suggestion thread about that...

[Steampunkette]

I actually think this is a good idea... but I think the implementation is off.

 

You're giving the "Offensive Pool" two of the biggest most flashy and awesome powers from both SS and SJ, and a minute long damage buff?

 

Meanwhile the "Defensive Pool" is getting a ton of Resistance Benefits to hang out around it's sole Defense Power.

 

What would a "Brawling" power pool look like? Well it's already got a punch and a kick and then a big punch... so how about a Haymaker? Or instead of a big flashy kick, how about a leg sweep? It definitely does not need a "long duration damage boost" type ability. That's strictly the province of Super Strength.

 

How about, instead, it gets an Autopower that increases the effectiveness of the other attacks? That's what the whole attack benefit is for the 3 attacks that already exist in the set. We could make the 4th attack boost the other three, and then the fifth power boost them all without granting another attack?

 

Meanwhile I think the Defensive Pool is just straight power creepy... Giving out a messload of resistances just gives people an easier time to get the rest of their resistances capped.

 

How about making the Tier 1 powers into a Mez Resist and a partial Mez Protect, respectively? The first could give Duration Reduction on Stuns and Holds. While the second one could provide actual Mez Protection against Fear, passively, but functions like the Martial Combat Inner Will? Allowing you to break free of a mez effect, but not actually stop it from landing...

 

Then come Tough and Weave, and then you could put in something like an autopower containing Debuff Resistances for Recharge, Speed, Defense... all that jazz in one "Defiant" power.

[Cooltastic]

13 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

Power creep is still bad in this thread too.

What I'm proposing is simply more options when it comes to selecting pool powers. Why should power pools be designed in a way that you feel like you must take an ability you don't want or will never use just to get to what your really looking for? 

 

The offensive Fighting Pool I'm suggesting would be useful for characters who aren't already melee focused. Like MM's, Controllers, Defenders, etc. It gives them the option to be able to dish out some quick damage when the enemies get to close. Imagine playing a support hero who has an offensive option to make soloing a better possibility.

 

The defensive Guarded Pool(which seems to have the bigger question mark on it as being power creepy or not) offers 6 total toggles. All of these toggles cost endurance(There's your downside!) If you actually want to go ALL IN on this set you better have the endurance to support it. This set is more about guarding your week spots, choosing only what you can manage. Obviously the Psi and toxic resistance is locked at the top tier because nearly everyone is weak to these. 

 

Also, I forgot to add it in, but I assumed the fighting pool would still maintain the buff to each attack for picking multiple attacks in the pool thing.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Cooltastic

[Cooltastic]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

You're giving the "Offensive Pool" two of the biggest most flashy and awesome powers from both SS and SJ, and a minute long damage buff?

 

How about, instead, it gets an Autopower that increases the effectiveness of the other attacks? That's what the whole attack benefit is for the 3 attacks that already exist in the set. We could make the 4th attack boost the other three, and then the fifth power boost them all without granting another attack?

 

Meanwhile I think the Defensive Pool is just straight power creepy... Giving out a messload of resistances just gives people an easier time to get the rest of their resistances capped.

 

How about making the Tier 1 powers into a Mez Resist and a partial Mez Protect, respectively? The first could give Duration Reduction on Stuns and Holds. While the second one could provide actual Mez Protection against Fear, passively, but functions like the Martial Combat Inner Will? Allowing you to break free of a mez effect, but not actually stop it from landing...

 

Then come Tough and Weave, and then you could put in something like an autopower containing Debuff Resistances for Recharge, Speed, Defense... all that jazz in one "Defiant" power.

First part, not sure what I took from SS or SJ? If your speaking of the Hook(I had to look it up, but it's called Cross Punch and is already in the set. Just changed it a bit.) Then the idea for the Spinning kick came from the one of the same name from Martial Assault which is a cone that hit's up to 5. The pool version would only be 3 target max.

 

Second part, I know I didn't mention it in the OP but I assumed we would keep the attacks getting buffed for each additional attack in the set thing. But a good idea would be for only the one buff per power taken from each tier. So taking Boxing and kick would no longer buff each other. But if you had both, they would both get buffed by picking a tier 2 attack and visa versa.

 

Third part, not sure being able to get other mez protections in Pools would be a good idea or not. Combat Jumping is the only tier 1 pool power to do so and it's only for immobalize protection so not a huge deal as all ranged sets that would even need the ability could still attack if immobalized anyway. Acrobatics isn't even needed for the kb protection is offers anymore, but it also has some minimal hold protection(only reason anyone would even take it still.) But to use up a whole slot for just 2 hold protection seems like a pretty huge investment. I added these same 3 protections into the "Tier 3 Determination" ability for 30secs as an optinal way to combat these status types if only momentarily. I also added Status resistances to the guarded pool. I just don't think status protections/resistances should be easily/quickly obtained in pools.

 

Lastly, that Defiant Autopower is a nice idea also. 

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, Cooltastic said:

First part, not sure what I took from SS or SJ? If your speaking of the Hook(I had to look it up, but it's called Cross Punch and is already in the set. Just changed it a bit.) Then the idea for the Spinning kick came from the one of the same name from Martial Assault which is a cone that hit's up to 5. The pool version would only be 3 target max.

 

Second part, I know I didn't mention it in the OP but I assumed we would keep the attacks getting buffed for each additional attack in the set thing. But a good idea would be for only the one buff per power taken from each tier. So taking Boxing and kick would no longer buff each other. But if you had both, they would both get buffed by picking a tier 2 attack and visa versa.

 

Third part, not sure being able to get other mez protections in Pools would be a good idea or not. Combat Jumping is the only tier 1 pool power to do so and it's only for immobalize protection so not a huge deal as all ranged sets that would even need the ability could still attack if immobalized anyway. Acrobatics isn't even needed for the kb protection is offers anymore, but it also has some minimal hold protection(only reason anyone would even take it still.) But to use up a whole slot for just 2 hold protection seems like a pretty huge investment. I added these same 3 protections into the "Tier 3 Determination" ability for 30secs as an optinal way to combat these status types if only momentarily. I also added Status resistances to the guarded pool. I just don't think status protections/resistances should be easily/quickly obtained in pools.

 

Lastly, that Defiant Autopower is a nice idea also. 

I thought of the "Spinning Strike" when you said "Spinning Kick". And then you described 'KO' or 'Knockout' which I assumed was 'KO Blow'. SJ and SS respectively.

 

As far as the hold protection: I was suggesting Hold/Stun Mez RESISTANCE. Mez Resistance reduces the duration, but doesn't protect you from getting mezzed in the first place. I was suggesting the second power have Fear PROTECTION and then the ability to break-free if you're already controlled.

[Cooltastic]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I thought of the "Spinning Strike" when you said "Spinning Kick". And then you described 'KO' or 'Knockout' which I assumed was 'KO Blow'. SJ and SS respectively.

 

As far as the hold protection: I was suggesting Hold/Stun Mez RESISTANCE. Mez Resistance reduces the duration, but doesn't protect you from getting mezzed in the first place. I was suggesting the second power have Fear PROTECTION and then the ability to break-free if you're already controlled.

Ah, I see. Yeah I wouldn't want to take away the more flashy animations from sets for pool powers. I did call it KO because of the unique mechanic I included. It just sounded right. But it could just be a large charged up straight punch or kick. Maybe new animations for this power if that sort of thing ever starts to happen.

 

Yeah, Fear protection wouldn't be to bad to offer if we wanted to offer a new protection in Pools. I do feel like Status Resistances are more reasonable to offer in Pools though.

[Zepp]

This would significantly increase the resistance selection available, and be a huge buff for squishies (but even moreso for res set Stalkers) and support toons. I would definitely call this power creep.

[Cooltastic]

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

This would significantly increase the resistance selection available, and be a huge buff for squishies (but even moreso for res set Stalkers) and support toons. I would definitely call this power creep.

Incarnate abilities being a thing makes all power creep comments kind of laughable in my opinion. They literally can not add anything to the regular pools that are going to make you more OP than those things. 

 

Oh, and don't squishies currently need a buff in order to become useful choices again? Your right that the guarded set would be a more useful for squishies who aren't already running a bunch of toggles. Archs with Defensive sets will really only be able to run a few of these extra poll toggles on top of what they already have. Squishies have might have the endurance available to run more from Guarded but it will effect what else they can do. Endurance is there to fight against any power creep that could possibly come from this.

 

Do you think you could run 5 resistance toggles and a defense toggle. Or even more defense toggles if you want to try and squeeze Maneuvers or Stealth in aswell. Sure, you might be able to make a really survivable build, but your DPS is going to suffer cause your gonna lose stamina super quick.

 

But what about Catch a Breath Insp you ask? Well sure, insperations can help out a bit to offset just about anything. But if your filly up on blues your not filling up on reds or purples anymore. And once your out of them then what do you do? Start detoggling.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Cooltastic

[FDR's Think Tank]

It's topics like this that remind me of how fundamentally hopeless game balance is for City of Heroes.

 

On one hand, this isn't a particularly great idea, just like giving people early access to travel power completely upends the game for almost no purpose (you can power level to 14/15 very easily without much slogging around.) It's crazy to eliminate prerequisites or make Power Pools totally feature flat.

 

On the otherhand, I don't think Game Balance is a compelling argument. Game Fun and Purpose is it's own sort of balance, but City of Heroes is hopelessly unbalanced and the complaints about coding difficulty pretty much make reworking the balance in any core manner time cost prohibitive. It's better working on adding features or making smaller sets of changes to repair unfun or difficult sets.

 

Heck, even the fact that you can get all those sweet goodies from the P2W vendor right away completely changes choices I make in building and the challanges I face playing. It obviously shouldn't, but since it does that's how it is.

 

I think people who want a balanced game would be better served establishing those ideas on a game getting built from scratch. I personally have very specific ideas how to achieve that but it could never be implemented here... Here they have to keep fiddling with the numbers and hope they don't break it.

 

Incarnate powers take time and work to fill out, right? You have to get to 50, then grind lots of missions to build into that. I suppose to people on the top, game balance between low level characters doesn't really matter.... But that's honestly where alot of games fall apart. They forget the things that drew people in first. Like having to work hard to get your first travel powers.

 

Maybe to balance power pools they need to toy with having different prerequisites based on your archetype.  There should never be a power pool that is "required" to make a class playable. There shouldn't be a single one required to make a class competitive. There should be as many viable builds and options as possible, limited only by the playstyle of each player. That's very hard to accomplish.

 

A "power creep" can certainly make that problem even worse, effectively destroying build creativity.

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

9 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

Incarnate abilities being a thing makes all power creep comments kind of laughable in my opinion.

o.0  I don't know of any level 20 toons that have Incarnate abilities.  Or 30.  Or 40...   Or, to put it another way, there's more to the game than post-50.