Splitting the Fighting Pool into Off and Def Pools.

[Itikar]

On 10/24/2019 at 12:27 PM, Crysta Clear said:

You take it because Weave is the best pool power around for softcapping defenses. And Tough is an early (read-- exemplar-friendly) option for slotting your two defense globals that go into resist powers. Kick is a small price to pay for that amazing amount of defense.

Unless Homecoming has changed stuff from the base game, even if the power is greyed out, let's say you picked up tough as your penultimate power, the IO global will still work if you exemplar down to at least within 3 levels from the IO.

 

Source: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Exemplar_Effects_on_Enhancements#Special_IOs_from_Sets

 

For the rest I agree that the proposal removes a layer of complexity from choosing powers and seems a bit unbalanced in the current state of the game. I would say, especially in light of exemplaring, for which tough and weave are particularly good defence sources at early levels. The power tax feels right to me, personally. Other power pools have that as well, concealment forces to choose two powers in order to obtain invisibility, and so does sorcery for rune of protection. Leaping too does it for acrobatics, even if it is not an extremely popular power nowadays. Weave seems just the best one of the lot, for sure, and then that's one less reason to make it easier to obtain in my humble opinion.

[Steampunkette]

Let's try round 2!

 

Brawling Pool:

Boxing (Unchanged)

Kick (Unchanged)

Crosspunch (Unchanged)

Leg Sweep (PBAoE Smashing + KD, 8ft Radius 18.5 end/use 20 second recharge, max 5 Targets.)

Bruised Knuckles (Autopower. Increase KD/KB/Stun of all previous powers, add 10% more ToHit and Damage to other Brawling Pool Powers)

 

Self Defense Pool:

Reliance (Autopower: Mez Resist (Not protection).Grants 50% Duration Reduction on Hold/Stun/Sleep.)

Fearless (Autopower: Mez Protection Fear Mag 4. Grants click power that ends control effects currently affecting you, but provides no lingering protection.)

Tough (Unchanged)

Weave (Unchanged)

Defiant (Autopower: Debuff Resistance for Defense Debuff, ToHit Debuff, Recharge Rate Debuff, Speed Debuff, and Healing Debuffs)

 

People looking to get Tough and Weave still have to pick a power from the Self Defense pool, but their choices are a little more meaningful. Most Mez Protections don't provide Fear Protection, and anyone who -gets- mezzed could benefit from shorter mezzes. And then Defiant can help shore up sets that don't have "Enough" Debuff protection.

 

Meanwhile the Brawling Pool becomes a much more reasonable choice for Controllers, who can cobble together an attack chain for themselves to use on Mezzed Opponents with 2 Melee and 2 Melee AoE powers.

 

Also a great option for Pistol Blappers and Sentinels who want to mix things up in melee a bit more while maintaining a "Natural Hero" theme.

[Doc_Scorpion]

38 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Let's try round 2!

For all intents and purposes, it's actually all but indistinguishable from round 1 as it suffers from the same flaw - power creep due to having all advantages, and no disadvantages. 

Back to the drawing board.

[Steampunkette]

17 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

For all intents and purposes, it's actually all but indistinguishable from round 1 as it suffers from the same flaw - power creep due to having all advantages, and no disadvantages. 

Back to the drawing board.

... yeah, I don't really understand how it's supposed to be Disadvantages, here.

 

Unless the powers Debuff you for having the audacity to take them, they're going to have advantages.

 

The question is whether or not "+50% Resistance to Hold/Stun Durations" (Which reduces their duration by 25%) is a good substitute for Kick (Which can be slotted for a Proc, but is largely unused outside of triggering that proc).

 

If you're a melee type: No. Because you've got Mez Protection which also provides Resistance to some degree or another. It is only marginally useful, like Kick. If you're NOT a melee type it's kind of useful, but not really. More useful than kick unless you planned to proc Sudden Acceleration off Kick.

 

Then comes the same question asked of a power that grants a small amount of Fear Protection (Which is a very rare form of Control that only a few sets have protection against) and has a click 'end controls on me' effect is a good substitute for Kick.

 

If you're a melee type, again the answer is no. Fear is only used by a handful of enemies in the game and your Mez Protection precludes a need for half of a break free's usefulness. Especially since Break Frees exist in the game. If you're not a melee types... Not really? The break-free effect is nice, but those drop fairly regularly and Fear is pretty rare. It's like buying a brand new umbrella because the weatherman said there's a 20% chance of rain.

 

As to the Brawling Pool... Very few people would ever bother using it. Yeah, there's advantages in taking the full powerset (Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch buffing each other is nice, and getting a 10% bonus to all of them is great!) but it's a very limited pool, has higher end costs and recharge times than other melee powers, and would require a lot of slotting investment to make it 'Good'.

 

Which would limit investment to Blappers, Seppers, and Scrollers.

 

In short I think your minimal response with only vague terms isn't particularly productive, but I'm trying to answer it as best I can: The disadvantage is you still have to take a crappy power to get to the good powers.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

For all intents and purposes, it's actually all but indistinguishable from round 1 as it suffers from the same flaw - power creep due to having all advantages, and no disadvantages. 

Back to the drawing board.

Why should any power pick be seen as needing an inherent disadvantage. The idea of a power tax or a bad power no one uses being a req for useful powers is absurd. EVERY POWER should feel fun and effective and be worth taking. Any power currently seen as bad, a waste, a power tax for better powers etc needs to be the top priority to be improved.

 

I for one like the basic idea of the OP of this thread. Sure it could sue fine tuning, tweaking, and that is best left to the HC devs who have the data to decide how strong or weak a given ability is. Personally I love the fighting pool for its attacks, and find the addition of cross punch makes having all 3 attacks even on various melee AT fun and useful additions. My biggest issue the lame animation of kick Id love something abit more flashy.

 

Frankly I think the fighting pool should be turned into street justice-lite with all the fun combo and changing animations, and this new defense pool concept should indeed be a blend of super reflexes -lite, and invuln-lite.

 

Plenty of people who take a defense set with a clicky mex power want a toggle they can access why not a weaker but still viable toggle mez protection, or better yet 3 defense toggles each with a mez they protect from, and a physical dmg and res dmg toggle also each with a mez effect they help protect. Yes it would be very toggle heavy, and require building sets with endurance recovery and power cost reduction as a focus to help manage all the new end drain such abilities would cause, but would give those wanting options, that exact thing more options.

[Cooltastic]

8 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Why should any power pick be seen as needing an inherent disadvantage. The idea of a power tax or a bad power no one uses being a req for useful powers is absurd. EVERY POWER should feel fun and effective and be worth taking. Any power currently seen as bad, a waste, a power tax for better powers etc needs to be the top priority to be improved.

THANK YOU! This guy get's it.

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

yeah, I don't really understand how it's supposed to be Disadvantages, here.

It's pretty simply to understand, and blatantly obvious to anyone who spends even a tenth of second intelligently examining the current pools:  There's a mix of powers, some more desirable than others as well as mix of powers between pools that requires the player to make intelligent choices of his limited power and power pool choices.

You've essentially created Epic level pools and proposed making them available as a normal power pool.
 

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Any power currently seen as bad, a waste, a power tax for better powers etc needs to be the top priority to be improved.

Seen by the min-maxers as "bad, a waste, a power tax" isn't the same as a power actually being "bad, a waste, a power tax".  Min-maxers generally don't care for intelligent game design.

[FDR's Think Tank]

They have already failed to make every power fun, effective, or worth taking for all builds equally. Some of this is baked in because character creation is limited and necessarily defined by the archetype system for ease of play and progression. The issue is that each power represents something different to each archetype and even some significant differences between power set choices inside of Archetypes as well. The rest is because they failed to balance the sets remotely well, there is no rock paper scissors mechanic to combat structured in... it's great for PvE and Cooperative ventures... but deeply wrong for competitive play. You still have sets like Trick Arrow for Defender which are basically neutered and poorly functional for the Archetype... this is compounded by the fact they took a brokenly weak set and gave it to Corrupters, Masterminds, AND Controllers... despite the fact these sets are secondary for them, and therefore less impacted by the weakness of the set. Any universal changes or buff to the Trick Arrow set could upend the poorly balanced game and still make Trick Arrow Defenders the worst Trick Arrow Class.

 

I say... balance all weak Primaries so they are at least middling first, then hit the Secondary Power Sets, then go back and tweak the next weakest Primaries... and so on a few times before you start trying to open the flood gates on pool powers. I think it was deeply misguided to give everyone early access to travel powers, which only doesn't wreck early builds because 1.) you can level up fast away from your early build and 2.) you get a bunch of free attacks from the P2W specialist. I don't expect them to reverse the lockout on Travel powers until 15... at least not on the main servers, maybe if they make a "Progressive Server" that nixes most of the "QoL" power creeps the game had in going Free To Play/Purchase Prestige Sets. However, I am opposed to messing up the Boxing set just to get weave and tough.

 

Now if they want to make a new power pool... or best yet, a Prestige power pool (I.E. you only get one, it locks you out of the others) that perhaps offers some early defensive powers... or the possibility of adding free prestige powers (similar to the attacks you can get right now) that give click timer defenses, movement boost, mez protection, kb protection at P2W.... it might nuke PvP at first, or it might make more builds viable. Basically something that forces players to juggle more click responsibility to gain defensive benefits... NOT something that just gives them innates/toggles they can basically ignore.

 

 The way it functions now, an Illusion controller has few normal attacks, basic punches and kicks are more necessary for him than for any scrapper, who has many melee choices, often more interesting. However, while the Illusion controller can benefit from the improved defenses, it's not a crucial as it is for a Tanker, whose play style solo and ESPECIALLY in a team is focused on damage mitigation with defense. The Tanker doesn't NEED the punch or kick, many would rather not take it even... but they are willing to make a build sacrifice to get to it. The REASON for this sacrifice is simple: It promotes build diversity. What if a tanker decides to focus on all their mains instead? Should the tanker be punished because he didn't take what became a required power the moment you reduced the cost to get to it? The Boxing Power Pool, if we are being honest, shouldn't even be offered to Melee classes. It's primary reason is for variety, of which it offers none to Melee classes. Instead, it allows them to reinvest in what they can already do, perversely rewarding them for doing so. That's what Primary and Secondaries are for. Power Pools primarily offer powers that are outside the playstyle focus, maybe giving redundancies or direct support to Primary and Secondary function after slots are invested in abilities that might see less use or development.

 

Let's break this down another way: IF the cost associate with taking a power is what determines how it is balanced... you could reduce the benefit Melee Classes can gain from a power they can take without sacrificing a slot to a power that might go unused. I think MORE people would object to reduced benefit than to the slot sacrifice. The only other cost you could bake in would be that the toggles would be incompatible with specified other defense powers..... like concealment and invisibility is usually not allowed to stack or Stone Armor functions with some of it's mutually exclusive toggle defenses. This cost might be even MORE onerous than the other two cost options.

 

Why must their be a cost? There is ALWAYS a cost.. and if the cost for a pool power is less than everything else to the point that taking another power becomes a painful cost... then that power is TOO good to offer your character. Power Pools shouldn't be BETTER than your Primary or Secondary Powers... they should be  starkly different and give your character flexibility or QoL you needed. Swallowing a redundant punch power is a small price to pay for the people MOST concerned with Defense. If you offered them a long range attack, like a pistol blast or hidden dart toss, you might break the balance... (since unlike the prestige powers, it could be upgraded. Melee classes love attacks they can use to draw people to them for solo.)

Edited October 26, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Chance Jackson]

On 10/24/2019 at 6:49 AM, Crysta Clear said:

None of those things are even relevant to this discussion. You are making a choice when you choose Mystic Flight, and that choice is to not be taking the far better Flight pool with a defense power in it, that is also a more maneuverable flight for battle with cheaper endurance cost, because if you're going to take Hover, then why spend another pool selection on Mystic Flight? Translocation is not even a benefit in terms of speed -- its only real use is to spend 11 endurance to stop without drifting so you can use a snipe or assassin strike or something.... which you could do for free with Hover.

 

Fitness being inherent is an old change, and thus, old power creep. Which, again, does not excuse new power creep. If you make a mistake, why does that make future commissions of that mistake suddenly 'okay?'

 

Placing Tough and Weave that deep into the pool was very likely a deliberate balance decision for offering a defensive pool power with such a high scale.

Iirc the original weave pre ed, only offered s/l def it was not that powerful & it had the same pre-reqs

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's pretty simply to understand, and blatantly obvious to anyone who spends even a tenth of second intelligently examining the current pools:  There's a mix of powers, some more desirable than others as well as mix of powers between pools that requires the player to make intelligent choices of his limited power and power pool choices.

You've essentially created Epic level pools and proposed making them available as a normal power pool.
 

Seen by the min-maxers as "bad, a waste, a power tax" isn't the same as a power actually being "bad, a waste, a power tax".  Min-maxers generally don't care for intelligent game design.

In the future if your going to quote me, quote the entire statement not selective editing it to try and make it seem other then what I said. Nor have you any idea what kind of gamer I am. I am first and foremost a role player, and very far from a min maxxer. Sure I build to make sure all my powers feel fun and effective and avoid taking powers I cant invest slots into etc.

 

And I am not the one here who is describing the powers and a power tax that demands the power be crappy to justify a higher tier one being decent. Nor are the ancillary pools( note they are no longer called epic pools and in fact are not supposed to actually be numerically superior to the other pools, they are supposed to just like all other pool powers be somewhat weaker then primary/2ndary counterparts. That doesnt mean they are in any way supposed to have powers that are numerically so inferior that few if any ever bother to make use of them. They are supposed to be decent enough to be worthwhile in builds lacking similar powers in their core power sets. Nor are set bonuses in anyway something that should or need be factored into the end result. hence why weave and tough are not deemed OP, because even though yes with sets they can add a strong layer of protection to a build, the game is not ever to be balanced around those set bonuses.

 

So once we accept that when we remove sets from the equation the ideas being suggested here dont in themselves lead to some game breaking OP ubermensch that would make the 5th column wet themselves, those decrying it as such should be able to accept the reality. on their own none of these suggestions lead to any new height of power for the current top end builds. My god like blasters and scrappers certainly wont care about them. My Brutes and stalkers neither. Maybe some of my more flavorful concepts that I still like to get into the fray with like a kinetic defender that wants to be in the thick of it fighting like the tsoo martial arts/kinetics users do for example would love pools that let me make something similar to that villain mob.

 

But lets be honest what people like you really fear is support AT toons like my defender example choosing more pool abilities and ignoring the effect ally only powers. Because those would be the most likely AT/builds to use such pool attacks and defenses.Not like that matters, you wont ever break the Offenders. We rule, we solo GMs and those who seek to bind us down as only support will continue to nash and want anything that lets ATs break out of their ROLE nerfed or denied to us because you want us as your good little support slave nanny wiping up after you.

 

The fact HC just radically improved Invisibility while keeping stealth useful shows the HC team understands that there should not be throw away powers.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

They have already failed to make every power fun, effective, or worth taking for all builds equally. Some of this is baked in because character creation is limited and necessarily defined by the archetype system for ease of play and progression. The issue is that each power represents something different to each archetype and even some significant differences between power set choices inside of Archetypes as well. The rest is because they failed to balance the sets remotely well, there is no rock paper scissors mechanic to combat structured in... it's great for PvE and Cooperative ventures... but deeply wrong for competitive play. You still have sets like Trick Arrow for Defender which are basically neutered and poorly functional for the Archetype... this is compounded by the fact they took a brokenly weak set and gave it to Corrupters, Masterminds, AND Controllers... despite the fact these sets are secondary for them, and therefore less impacted by the weakness of the set. Any universal changes or buff to the Trick Arrow set could upend the poorly balanced game and still make Trick Arrow Defenders the worst Trick Arrow Class.

 

I say... balance all weak Primaries so they are at least middling first, then hit the Secondary Power Sets, then go back and tweak the next weakest Primaries... and so on a few times before you start trying to open the flood gates on pool powers. I think it was deeply misguided to give everyone early access to travel powers, which only doesn't wreck early builds because 1.) you can level up fast away from your early build and 2.) you get a bunch of free attacks from the P2W specialist. I don't expect them to reverse the lockout on Travel powers until 15... at least not on the main servers, maybe if they make a "Progressive Server" that nixes most of the "QoL" power creeps the game had in going Free To Play/Purchase Prestige Sets. However, I am opposed to messing up the Boxing set just to get weave and tough.

 

Now if they want to make a new power pool... or best yet, a Prestige power pool (I.E. you only get one, it locks you out of the others) that perhaps offers some early defensive powers... or the possibility of adding free prestige powers (similar to the attacks you can get right now) that give click timer defenses, movement boost, mez protection, kb protection at P2W.... it might nuke PvP at first, or it might make more builds viable. Basically something that forces players to juggle more click responsibility to gain defensive benefits... NOT something that just gives them innates/toggles they can basically ignore.

 

 The way it functions now, an Illusion controller has few normal attacks, basic punches and kicks are more necessary for him than for any scrapper, who has many melee choices, often more interesting. However, while the Illusion controller can benefit from the improved defenses, it's not a crucial as it is for a Tanker, whose play style solo and ESPECIALLY in a team is focused on damage mitigation with defense. The Tanker doesn't NEED the punch or kick, many would rather not take it even... but they are willing to make a build sacrifice to get to it. The REASON for this sacrifice is simple: It promotes build diversity. What if a tanker decides to focus on all their mains instead? Should the tanker be punished because he didn't take what became a required power the moment you reduced the cost to get to it? The Boxing Power Pool, if we are being honest, shouldn't even be offered to Melee classes. It's primary reason is for variety, of which it offers none to Melee classes. Instead, it allows them to reinvest in what they can already do, perversely rewarding them for doing so. That's what Primary and Secondaries are for. Power Pools primarily offer powers that are outside the playstyle focus, maybe giving redundancies or direct support to Primary and Secondary function after slots are invested in abilities that might see less use or development.

 

Let's break this down another way: IF the cost associate with taking a power is what determines how it is balanced... you could reduce the benefit Melee Classes can gain from a power they can take without sacrificing a slot to a power that might go unused. I think MORE people would object to reduced benefit than to the slot sacrifice. The only other cost you could bake in would be that the toggles would be incompatible with specified other defense powers..... like concealment and invisibility is usually not allowed to stack or Stone Armor functions with some of it's mutually exclusive toggle defenses. This cost might be even MORE onerous than the other two cost options.

 

Why must their be a cost? There is ALWAYS a cost.. and if the cost for a pool power is less than everything else to the point that taking another power becomes a painful cost... then that power is TOO good to offer your character. Power Pools shouldn't be BETTER than your Primary or Secondary Powers... they should be  starkly different and give your character flexibility or QoL you needed. Swallowing a redundant punch power is a small price to pay for the people MOST concerned with Defense. If you offered them a long range attack, like a pistol blast or hidden dart toss, you might break the balance... (since unlike the prestige powers, it could be upgraded. Melee classes love attacks they can use to draw people to them for solo.)

Yeah lets see bitching about game balance, talking about pvp like it matters or should ever be relevant, basically insulting our beloved game and its creation left and right. Thinking some ATs should be denied access to some pools. Oh and forgetting every power does have a cost, its called a power slot. We only get to pick so many powers.

 

Oh and Any tank that needs pool powers to tank is a bad tank build pure and simple. Every Tank gets so much protection from their primary that they should be building for offense with every set bonus and pool pick so they can actually kick enough ass to be worth a party slot. Pure tank tankers are about as useful and fun to play as pure healing empaths. Sure a tiny fraction of MMO communities do claim to like them( about 5% typically based on various metrics MMOs have released over the years. But by and large for people to want to be tanks, they also need to be able to hit hard enough to have fun when solo and feel like their DPS does matter in teams so they dont feel like all they are is meat shields. Same goes for healers. The bring your own heal movement that was started in both CoH back on live and in DDO by the cleric players more thena  decade ago shows that even those who can heal, want to have that role be 2ndary to the role of kicking ass and taking names.

 

Oh and the fact you think primary and 2ndarys all need to be basically the same in numbers tells me you lack a fundamental understanding of the nature of the power sets in CoH. Some sets are supposed to compliment others better. A dark SR scrapper for example was by design the original solo AV scrapper. Thats why Power Proliferation is indeed something they are most wary of. Some combos are too good. Hence why no tank regen for now.

 

Archery in general has always been a  problem child. Between weapon draw and being physical dmg it was sub par from inception, trick arrow was basically the only viable partner for it for defenders, and was also more for flavor then impact. basically it was a entire power set tax for the sake of playing an archer even if it meant never being in the same league as GM killing offenders. And soloing GMs isnt about min maxxing, its about being a hero concept on par with those from the comics who challenge the biggest and baddest on their own because that is what a hero does.

[Steampunkette]

10 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's pretty simply to understand, and blatantly obvious to anyone who spends even a tenth of second intelligently examining the current pools:  There's a mix of powers, some more desirable than others as well as mix of powers between pools that requires the player to make intelligent choices of his limited power and power pool choices.

You've essentially created Epic level pools and proposed making them available as a normal power pool.
 

Seen by the min-maxers as "bad, a waste, a power tax" isn't the same as a power actually being "bad, a waste, a power tax".  Min-maxers generally don't care for intelligent game design.

Ohhhh... I see, now.

 

You're a rude pseudo-intellectual jerk who might have some kind of point but hides it under personal insults and passive aggressive snark. That makes more sense!

 

If you earnestly think Mag 4 Fear protection and half a break free are anywhere near as desirable as Tough or Weave (Especially since there's no IO Set enhanceable component to that sort of 'Mez Protection') then I don't think I can help you, Scorpo.

 

Same thing with Duration Reduction on Hold/Stun.

 

But hey, you'll never have to read my responses to you, again, at least! I'll just drag my neanderthal knuckles over to the ignore button for you!

[FDR's Think Tank]

Wait a darn second. You are arguing that game balance shouldn't matter because you only want the power for ROLEPLAYING purposes? The power pool boxing set doesn't just have a game balance reason for requiring you to learn a punch or kick first. It also has a roleplaying reason for it too. Tough and Weave are abilities associated with boxing/kickboxing where a person learns the fundamentals of competitive fighting. In Boxing, the footwork and toughness of a fighter is essential, but it is learned after they learn about striking.

 

As far as insulting the beloved game, don't put yourself on a pedestal buddy. You are asking for the game to be broken because you don't like having to take powers you won't slot... but do you slot every power you have? The powers you (and everyone else) start with are powers you took because you were given no other options. You took them, but you won't slot them all, even across different builds. If you love something, you can admit it's flaws. You aren't admitting flaws, you are insulting the game for not letting you ignore building prerequisites... and you ask for a power handout based on that alone? There isn't a game balance reason and we have illustrated there isn't a roleplaying reason why the change should be made. There are way more pressing matters than early costless access to Tough and Weave, and most people think that change represents a bigger problem than anything you have outlined it being a solution towards.

 

To be totally honest, I don't think you are being honest about your intentions or a single idea you have presented, @Bentley Berkeley. One moment you are screaming about roleplay being the most important thing... then next you are strawmanning me and putting words in my mouth about power sets and number crunching. You say that tanks shouldn't take more defensive powers, but it's widely acknowledged that one of the prime things the melee classes aim for is hitting their soft caps and caps. You don't need to know a single number for that. What is fun to play on your own and what is fun to play in a team is certainly different... but Melee classes are more likely to sacrifice a taunt power for a solo build than they are to sacrifice a defensive power. However, I think you know that. I think you are the sort of min maxer who wants to play the sort of broken silliness like a double armor class, simply so that first punch or kick from boxing doesn't feel like a wasted power slot.

 

I have made my feelings on Trick Arrows Defenders pretty clear. I don't need them to be directly supportive of the team, but they ought to be Defenders in some way. Making them crummy reverse blasters or nerfed controllers is a waste of time, because it doesn't solve the core issue for why to play a DEFENDER and not any other Arrow class available. Defenders BENEFIT from teamwork, and the inherent, Vigilance, is one small part of that. For an arrow defender, it doesn't feel like it does much at all. I want more combo options for Trick Arrows, like the Oil Slick Ignition. There are others who feel that is too much to code or that they would rather the Trick Arrow Defender be directly buffed back to relative similar levels it had when it was first released. The only question I have then... is why was it nerfed in the first place? They completely nuked the class, from one of the best Defenders builds to the worst. That is something the original team was VERY clear on: a fully functional Trick Arrow Defender made the blaster superfluous, because the Debuffs put his damage over the top... the class didn't FUNCTION like a Defender class at all. The Key with Defenders isn't that they heal/buff the team... but that they create opportunities to interact with the team. Typically it is the Defender that does the interaction, and the team enjoys the benefits... however, there is no reason that dynamic can't be reversed. More Trick Arrow combos could be exclusive to the Defender power set... and they could give the team opportunities to interact with the changes the TA Defender makes to the battlefield. Is it a lot of coding? Yes. Is it impossible? No... they already have the first example. If people weren't so opposed to combos/alternate purposes for TA Defender arrows, we could have a better discussion about it. Instead, it's the min maxers who dream of a day when they can min max Trick Arrow Defenders again. As far as I am concerned, they already have TAC Arrow Blasters. Why do we need to cater to that even more?

 

There are no Throwaway powers. There are Build sacrifices, and this wouldn't be a discussion if it wasn't happening already. You can't just pretend that it doesn't matter when it clearly does. Most importantly, I don't think you really understand what you are calling for. When a game is broken, dysfunctional, or buggy in a way that makes it too difficult or impossible to win, people go to the forums and complain about it. They ask for it to be FIXED. You aren't asking for a fix, what you are railing against was intentional as part of the design. I am not opposed to making a different power pool that offers something similar to what you want, but with different downsides, but I strongly urge for Boxing to be left as is. If you simply got your way,, the game would be broken and dysfunctional in a way that makes it less enjoyable to play with other people. What you are asking for would be FINE on your own private server, but in a game world you share with others, it reduces the variety of decent build styles. For a multiplayer game, variety is essential... but you want to eliminate it. Do you know what happens to a game that is broken and dysfunctionally flat and easy? It dies quietly. It was frustrating trying to understand some of the choices the CoH Devs made when the game was official, but they never made a choice to give us something easy unless they were already changing a core reality in the game. There is a reason people want to play the old issues of CoH, prior to Free 2 Play. That reason is in direct opposition to cracking the power pools open as you suggest.

 

Don't be lazy. Propose a new Power pool or Epic Power Pool. I don't oppose finding a way to balance that.

[Infinitum]

On 10/24/2019 at 12:23 AM, Cooltastic said:

This is an idea pulled from another thread, decided to make a thread dedicated to discussing it specifically. So how would you go about doing it? Would you even like to see it done? Personally I'm in the more available pool choices the better. Here's my take on it...

 

Fighting Pool:

     Tier 1 - Boxing(disorients), Kick(knocks down)

     Tier 2 - Hook(cone punch)(chance to disorient), Spinning kick(cone kick)(knocks back)(3 target max on both)

     Tier 3 - Determination(a 1min damage/To-hit/recharge buff with a 10min cooldown which also grants hold, immobalize, and knockback protection for 30s of the powers duration) (can also be used while under any status effect to break the effect) (activation animation could be slamming your fists together like a boxer getting ready to fight)

                 KO(a devastating ST attack when enemy is at 50% or lower HP, does less damage the more health they have)(has both punch and kick animation options)

 

Guarded Pool:

     Tier 1 - Insulated(fire and ice damage resistance), Resistant(energy and negative energy damage resistance)

     Tier 2 - Tough, Weave

     Tier 3 - Alert(psi damage, sleep, and recharge debuff resistance)

                 Fit(toxic damage, stun, and slow debuff resistance)

 

 

EDIT: All the Fighting Pool attacks would still get the 15%-30% damage buff, but the buffs are applied when picking your first Tier 2 and Tier 3 ability from the Pool.

         All the abilities suggested in the Guard Pool are toggles and would cost endurance to run. So the idea is the pick the one's that will best guard your weak spots.

Stay as is or this, wouldn't really matter honestly.  

 

Usually I'm maxed out on slots as is so it's kinda good I have a power like kick to not have a need to slot.

 

If other powers were added to split the pool, I'm not sure how it would lead to anything drastically OP because min maxing slots will run out anyway.

 

That's why I would never be for increasing the number of slots because that's the barrier to where you really would have power creep then.

 

But as is its a good barrier and IMO the game is in a versatile, fun, and engaging spot currently.

 

Adding power pools would only diversify what we have because the slot limit keeps creep in check anyway.

 

But again I don't care whether this happens or not.

[Haijinx]

All these fighting pool suggestions seem like a lot of hoops to jump through to a avoid wasting 1 power pick.

 

Its not like you get enough slots for all your powers anyway. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Haijinx

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

All these fighting pool suggestions seem like a lot of hoops to jump through to a avoid wasting 1 power pick.

 

Its not like you get enough slots for all your powers anyway. 

Yeah, I agree it's almost like disturbing something not needing disturbed for too little possible gain.

 

Number of slots is the ultimate power creep check valve.

 

There's only so many things you can do currently.

[Crysta Clear]

On 10/24/2019 at 4:44 PM, Cooltastic said:

What I'm proposing is simply more options when it comes to selecting pool powers. Why should power pools be designed in a way that you feel like you must take an ability you don't want or will never use just to get to what your really looking for?

Because Tough and Weave put together are as good as three powers. Letting you have them for two power selections is, quite simply, not okay.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Because Tough and Weave put together are as good as three powers. Letting you have them for two power slots is, quite simply, not okay.

How do you figure 3 powers?

[Haijinx]

Hmm that is an interesting take.

 

Tough and Weave are defensive toggles that do what armor set and epic toggles do, and stack with them. 

 

Add in the fact that for a lot of ATs tough is the only place to put the two 3% global def uniques ..

 

If anything they are often worth more than 3 power picks to your overall build.

[Crysta Clear]

They're worth so much of a character's defense softcaps, proportionally.

 

Weave is 3.5% defense even for a blaster, which comes out to 5.25% when slotted up to ED's cutoff point. It's base 5% for a tanker, up to 7.5% at ED's cutoff.

 

Tough is a resist power that is not often worth enough resist to justify its endurance cost, or slotting it for resistance, but dropping a single slot in there lets you slot the +3% flat defense globals from Gladiator's Armour and Steadfast Protection (resist sets) as early as 14th level (can keep it, and thus keep the globals slotted into it, while exemplared as low as 9th level). And for a blaster, it's the only resist power you'll get. And then you just don't toggle it on, because 11% smash/lethal resist isn't going to be worth a blaster's endurance.

 

Both of these are a source of defense for archetypes that may not have any access to defense powers in most of their sets (dominators have none, blasters only have them in two secondaries), and are essential for having defenses on those archetypes. In total, Tough and Weave give a blaster 11.25% all defenses. That is exactly 1/4 of the 45% defense you need to softcap.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Haijinx]

Add in the resist uniques and set bonuses tough can get you to decent S/L resists also.  

[Crysta Clear]

It depends on your build and archetype. For a blaster, Tough is the only resist you're likely to have, since your set bonuses will be covering a lot of your defense softcaps. Lots of Mako's Bites, winter sets, ATO's, etc. Whether a blaster has ~20% smash/lethal, or ~35% including Tough's own effect (if you slot it out to ED's cutoff, it is only 15.75% smash/lethal for a blaster, or 10.5% base. 4 slots is a lot to waste on 5.25% smash/lethal resist), is so very rarely relevant to a blaster's survival.

 

My blaster softcaps all three positionals and gets her resist from Mu Lightning's Charged Armour -- she can't afford the slots to slot out more than one resist power, and Charged Armour is the better place to put them.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Infinitum]

I usually 6 slot tough with a whole set of unbreakable guard or 5 slot with UG if I have used the unique elsewhere but put a imperium armor psi resist, or another unique in it.

[Cooltastic]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Stay as is or this, wouldn't really matter honestly.  

 

Usually I'm maxed out on slots as is so it's kinda good I have a power like kick to not have a need to slot.

 

If other powers were added to split the pool, I'm not sure how it would lead to anything drastically OP because min maxing slots will run out anyway.

 

That's why I would never be for increasing the number of slots because that's the barrier to where you really would have power creep then.

 

But as is its a good barrier and IMO the game is in a versatile, fun, and engaging spot currently.

 

Adding power pools would only diversify what we have because the slot limit keeps creep in check anyway.

 

But again I don't care whether this happens or not.

This exactly, well said. All adding new powers to pools is going to do is give you more options to choose from. Say you want to go with the whole "Offensive Fighting Pool"(as proposed in this thread) That's going to use up a lot of slots in order to get all the bonuses from taking multiple powers in the set, which is going to limit what other pool powers your able to take. Maybe you wont have room in your build for Hasten anymore, or cherry picking leadership abilities.

 

Hell, we could even do a similar mechanic for the "Defensive Guarded Pool." Abysmal buffs on their own, but taking multiple powers from the set increases the potency of each. Forcing you to dive deeper into a Pool Set and use up more slots to really make them worthwhile.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Cooltastic

[Crysta Clear]

34 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I usually 6 slot tough with a whole set of unbreakable guard or 5 slot with UG if I have used the unique elsewhere but put a imperium armor psi resist, or another unique in it.

My condolences. If you don't have any other resist powers, your archetype and set won't be capable of enough resists for them to matter, and you would probably get a better result out of slotting for defense. If you do have other resist powers in-set, you certainly aren't going to need Tough's miniscule bonus.

 

Tough is a defense power masquerading as a resist power. It's almost never worth the end cost to maintain it, but you can slot 6% flat defense bonus in it that doesn't require it to be toggled on.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Crysta Clear