Might be time for a new tank

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Call Me Awesome said:

We'll just have to disagree about Invuln. 😎

Try this then.

 

Go on Beta, roll a rad, an Elec, and a shield, using my builds.

 

Then roll an invul.  Go to monster island agro 4 GMs see which one survives the longest.

 

Then run any praetorian AV arc with the mixed damage types prevalent in late game, or even some dark astoria arcs.

 

Tell me which one come through easiest.

 

Keep in mind I'm an invul player also, its very good, but there are various mechanics that allow the others to surpass it in the end.

 

Or if you would like to run with my SG we are a fun crazy bunch you are more than welcome to, I could show you what they are like.  And please don't take this as a flame or me trying to one up you - thats not it at all, I assure you, I remember reading you back on live and always like what you had to say, I am simply looking to collaborate with you if you would have it.

[Call Me Awesome]

16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Try this then.

 

Go on Beta, roll a rad, an Elec, and a shield, using my builds.

 

Then roll an invul.  Go to monster island agro 4 GMs see which one survives the longest.

 

Then run any praetorian AV arc with the mixed damage types prevalent in late game, or even some dark astoria arcs.

 

Tell me which one come through easiest.

 

Keep in mind I'm an invul player also, its very good, but there are various mechanics that allow the others to surpass it in the end.

 

Or if you would like to run with my SG we are a fun crazy bunch you are more than welcome to, I could show you what they are like.  And please don't take this as a flame or me trying to one up you - thats not it at all, I assure you, I remember reading you back on live and always like what you had to say, I am simply looking to collaborate with you if you would have it.

I didn't take it as a flame at all, just a difference of opinion.  Your experience is different than mine is all and we're kind of getting into the "splitting hairs" territory of performance.  I find your Shield build very intriguing; the last time I played a Shield tanker was on Live and it just wasn't practical to build up resistance like it is now.  All of the top tier sets can easily handle anything the game throws at them with an optimal build.  I'll certainly be looking at taking some of your Shield build the next time I respec my Elec/SD Stalker or BS/SD Scrapper.

 

I knew someone back on Live that had a Fire/Fire/Fire tanker that could do things that amazed me and I couldn't figure out how he managed it.  I had one myself and it wasn't capable of nearly what he could do, and I never did figure out what he did differently.  This was true from issue 5 until near shutdown.

 

I'd be happy to run with you guys sometime, I'm dealing with mainly PuG's now since the rest of my old SG hasn't started playing again.  What server are you guys on?

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

I didn't take it as a flame at all, just a difference of opinion.  Your experience is different than mine is all and we're kind of getting into the "splitting hairs" territory of performance.  I find your Shield build very intriguing; the last time I played a Shield tanker was on Live and it just wasn't practical to build up resistance like it is now.  All of the top tier sets can easily handle anything the game throws at them with an optimal build.  I'll certainly be looking at taking some of your Shield build the next time I respec my Elec/SD Stalker or BS/SD Scrapper.

 

I knew someone back on Live that had a Fire/Fire/Fire tanker that could do things that amazed me and I couldn't figure out how he managed it.  I had one myself and it wasn't capable of nearly what he could do, and I never did figure out what he did differently.  This was true from issue 5 until near shutdown.

 

I'd be happy to run with you guys sometime, I'm dealing with mainly PuG's now since the rest of my old SG hasn't started playing again.  What server are you guys on?

Excelsior. Seriously. Please look us up we would love for you to take up residence with us even if its an honorary member. lol we have a few of those also. But we are very active, very crazy in a good way and I seriously want to see how to carry invul to the next level.

[Xandyr]

34 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Excelsior. Seriously. Please look us up we would love for you to take up residence with us even if its an honorary member. lol we have a few of those also. But we are very active, very crazy in a good way and I seriously want to see how to carry invul to the next level.

I'm on Excelsior also!

 

 This has been a great topic IMO and some awesome responses/interests/opinions.

 

 I ended up making a Radiation Armor/Spines/Mu tank. Almost fully slotted the way I want, and still have incarnates to go. Capped a few resistances, very strong defense numbers, then throw in the -to hit debuffs from aura and darkest night....good stuff.

 

 My global is @Scarlett Angel. Holler anytime I'm on and would love to team with any of y'all! 

On 11/2/2019 at 10:00 AM, Jon said:

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Xandyr

[Jon]

As someone with both a Shield Defense and an Invulnerability Tanker tricked out at 50, I gotta say... Invulnerability really does take the cake in terms of raw survivability.  Both characters are very viable, so you're not going to have trouble tanking on either. Invulnerability is going to require a bigger investment to really reach its full potential, but when it gets there it's pretty unmatched.

I like to view survivability as a sort of tiered system for how the game handles incoming damage.

Tier 1: Defense prevents attacks from landing.
Tier 2: Resistance makes those attacks that do land hurt less.

Tier 3: HP makes it so that even if the attack hurts, you'll still have health left over.

Tier 4: Regen makes allows you to regain your HP quickly if you don't have a lot of health leftover.

All armor sets layer these things together in some way to protect your character from attacks.

Here are the numbers for my two tanks. On the left is Shield/Savage, on the right is Invuln/Ice. Again, both are going to be really great at tanking, but Invulnerability excels in all 4 of the categories I just laid out. It's just no contest, really.

You could argue that Shield has better defense because of the consistency that comes with positional vs typed, but the reality is that unless we're talking about pure psionic damage, the sets are equally capable. Shield's damage output allows it to kill enemies faster, which also helps survivability in a different way, and that's what makes the set shine. But from a raw survivability standpoint Invulnerability's superiority is simply better.

If we're talking about the level up experience, Invulnerability is pretty bad. Shield Defense is a much more enjoyable ride to 50.

tl;dr

Both Invulnerability & Shield Defense have very similar defense capabilities. However, when an attack gets past your defense, Invulnerability has way more tools to mitigate that damage than Shield Defense does. That's just objectively true. In my opinion, though, they're still both two of the best Tanker sets.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Jon

[Bopper]

24 minutes ago, Jon said:

As someone with both a Shield Defense and an Invulnerability Tanker tricked out at 50, I gotta say... Invulnerability really does take the cake in terms of raw survivability.  Both characters are very viable, so you're not going to have trouble tanking on either. Invulnerability is going to require a bigger investment to really reach its full potential, but when it gets there it's pretty unmatched.

I like to view survivability as a sort of tiered system for how the game handles incoming damage.

Tier 1: Defense prevents attacks from landing.
Tier 2: Resistance makes those attacks that do land hurt less.

Tier 3: HP makes it so that even if the attack hurts, you'll still have health left over.

Tier 4: Regen makes allows you to regain your HP quickly if you don't have a lot of health leftover.

All armor sets layer these things together in some way to protect your character from attacks.

Here are the numbers for my two tanks. On the left is Shield/Savage, on the right is Invuln/Ice. Again, both are going to be really great at tanking, but Invulnerability excels in all 4 of the categories I just laid out. It's just no contest, really.

You could argue that Shield has better defense because of the consistency that comes with positional vs typed, but the reality is that unless we're talking about pure psionic damage, the sets are equally capable. Shield's damage output allows it to kill enemies faster, which also helps survivability in a different way, and that's what makes the set shine. But from a raw survivability standpoint Invulnerability's superiority is simply better.

If we're talking about the level up experience, Invulnerability is pretty bad. Shield Defense is a much more enjoyable ride to 50.

tl;dr

Both Invulnerability & Shield Defense have very similar defense capabilities. However, when an attack gets past your defense, Invulnerability has way more tools to mitigate that damage than Shield Defense does. That's just objectively true. In my opinion, though, they're still both two of the best Tanker sets.

Using my survivability tool, it appears your Invul is 4.9x more survivable for S/L damage, 2.2x more for F/C, 2.0x more for E/N, whereas SD is 3.4x more survivable for ranged psionic.

 

This assumes surviving for 10 minutes against a +4 AV and OWTS not being used (which I assume your screenshot isn't including). 

[Infinitum]

41 minutes ago, Jon said:

As someone with both a Shield Defense and an Invulnerability Tanker tricked out at 50, I gotta say... Invulnerability really does take the cake in terms of raw survivability.  Both characters are very viable, so you're not going to have trouble tanking on either. Invulnerability is going to require a bigger investment to really reach its full potential, but when it gets there it's pretty unmatched.

I like to view survivability as a sort of tiered system for how the game handles incoming damage.

Tier 1: Defense prevents attacks from landing.
Tier 2: Resistance makes those attacks that do land hurt less.

Tier 3: HP makes it so that even if the attack hurts, you'll still have health left over.

Tier 4: Regen makes allows you to regain your HP quickly if you don't have a lot of health leftover.

All armor sets layer these things together in some way to protect your character from attacks.

Here are the numbers for my two tanks. On the left is Shield/Savage, on the right is Invuln/Ice. Again, both are going to be really great at tanking, but Invulnerability excels in all 4 of the categories I just laid out. It's just no contest, really.

You could argue that Shield has better defense because of the consistency that comes with positional vs typed, but the reality is that unless we're talking about pure psionic damage, the sets are equally capable. Shield's damage output allows it to kill enemies faster, which also helps survivability in a different way, and that's what makes the set shine. But from a raw survivability standpoint Invulnerability's superiority is simply better.

If we're talking about the level up experience, Invulnerability is pretty bad. Shield Defense is a much more enjoyable ride to 50.

tl;dr

Both Invulnerability & Shield Defense have very similar defense capabilities. However, when an attack gets past your defense, Invulnerability has way more tools to mitigate that damage than Shield Defense does. That's just objectively true. In my opinion, though, they're still both two of the best Tanker sets.

That's my baseline no melee core, no one with the shield.  That's 100% of the time possible also with double active defense for added DDR.

 

Thats with melee core running if I need it, which I rarely do. 

 

The numbers of one with the shield are similar to melee core.  You can pretty much perma rotate the two for the above numbers if you wanted to.

 

So by my calculations defense alone on the baseline puts this shield build over your invul build because not much is going to get through, then what does you have a slight advantage over it in SL but the rest of the res exceeds your invul in every category without melee core or one with the shield.

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Using my survivability tool, it appears your Invul is 4.9x more survivable for S/L damage, 2.2x more for F/C, 2.0x more for E/N, whereas SD is 3.4x more survivable for ranged psionic.

 

This assumes surviving for 10 minutes against a +4 AV and OWTS not being used (which I assume your screenshot isn't including). 

hey bopper can you calculate my Shield survivability based on those numbers in the post above here please?

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

hey bopper can you calculate my Shield survivability based on those numbers in the post above here please?

I can try, but I don't know what your HP is at. If you'd like, you can use the tool by going to my signature block (or find in the guide forums). I have not incorporated DDR or absorb yet, though. If you can, send me the Mids build for download (soon, as I'm getting on a flight in a couple hours)

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I can try, but I don't know what your HP is at. If you'd like, you can use the tool by going to my signature block (or find in the guide forums). I have not incorporated DDR or absorb yet, though. If you can, send me the Mids build for download (soon, as I'm getting on a flight in a couple hours)

2700 ish

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I can try, but I don't know what your HP is at. If you'd like, you can use the tool by going to my signature block (or find in the guide forums). I have not incorporated DDR or absorb yet, though. If you can, send me the Mids build for download (soon, as I'm getting on a flight in a couple hours)

Captain Infinitum - Tanker (Shield Defense).mxd

[Jon]

25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

[pic]

 

That's my baseline no melee core, no one with the shield.  That's 100% of the time possible also with double active defense for added DDR.

 

[pic]

 

Thats with melee core running if I need it, which I rarely do. 

 

The numbers of one with the shield are similar to melee core.  You can pretty much perma rotate the two for the above numbers if you wanted to.

 

So by my calculations defense alone on the baseline puts this shield build over your invul build because not much is going to get through, then what does you have a slight advantage over it in SL but the rest of the res exceeds your invul in every category without melee core or one with the shield.

Ah, yeah, your playstyle is pretty different from mine. I personally really dislike One With The Shield as a power because of the crash (which admittedly is nowhere near as awful as Unstoppable, but I don't use that power either), and find it pretty annoying to use because it lacks consistency. However I will admit that leveraging it with Melee core is a pretty cool idea that I might have to try out.

 

My personal preference is Assault hybrid for the straight damage because Rebirth destiny patches up anything that gets through my defenses very efficiently with the +regen and added heal. I definitely think that including incarnates makes this somewhat of an edge case, though. On just IO investment, Invuln is definitely outshine Shield. With Incarnates, everything can be amazing and the differences between the two sets (in terms of survivability) start to lose meaning a bit.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Jon

[Infinitum]

31 minutes ago, Jon said:

Ah, yeah, your playstyle is pretty different from mine. I personally really dislike One With The Shield as a power because of the crash (which admittedly is nowhere near as awful as Unstoppable, but I don't use that power either), and find it pretty annoying to use because it lacks consistency. However I will admit that leveraging it with Melee core is a pretty cool idea that I might have to try out.

 

My personal preference is Assault core for the straight damage because Rebirth destiny patches up anything that gets through my defenses very efficiently with the +regen and added heal. I definitely think that including incarnates makes this somewhat of an edge case, though. On just IO investment, Invuln is definitely outshine Shield. With Incarnates, everything can be amazing and the differences between the two sets (in terms of survivability) start to lose meaning a bit.

 

The baseline doesn't include melee core or one with the shield - honestly I never have to use them.  But they are there if I do need them.   The only incarnate slot on that was Alpha Resilient.  My IO slotting is what accounts for the high positional defense and also high resistances across the board.  Resilient is all that adds to thst on the baseline.

 

The baseline only takes into account the alpha slot because it's perma.

 

I do utilize ageless radial, which lessens OWTS already mild hit and also increases recharge and ddr and other rebuff resistances.

 

Even if you take incarnate completely out with that IO setup the positional defense is high enough to where nothing gets through anyway.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Infinitum

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Captain Infinitum - Tanker (Shield Defense).mxd 5.64 kB · 2 downloads

Your Survivability Score for your Shield vs. the Invulnerability build 

S/L:     141.46 vs. 393.62  (Invuln x2.78 more survival)

F/C:     92.02 vs. 105.53   (Invuln x1.15 more survival)

E/N:     83.37 vs 75.26     (SD x1.11 more survival)

P:     50.85 vs 9.03    (SD x5.63 more survival)

[Infinitum]

55 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Your Survivability Score for your Shield vs. the Invulnerability build 

S/L:     141.46 vs. 393.62  (Invuln x2.78 more survival)

F/C:     92.02 vs. 105.53   (Invuln x1.15 more survival)

E/N:     83.37 vs 75.26     (SD x1.11 more survival)

P:     50.85 vs 9.03    (SD x5.63 more survival)

How is the FIre and Cold more on the invul when the minimum positional defense on the shield exceeds the invul 53.3 to 46.4 and the fire cold resistance of the shield exceeds the invul 71.1 to 62.7?

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

How is the FIre and Cold more on the invul when the minimum positional defense on the shield exceeds the invul 53.3 to 46.4 and the fire cold resistance of the shield exceeds the invul 71.1 to 62.7?

45% is softcap, so if you have 46% or 53%, it doesn't matter. As for having higher resistance, that's good. But the invuln has higher HP amd higher regen to combat it.

 

If you want to use 58.75% incarnate softcap, then yes. SD will be more survivable. I dont have time to check it as I'm sitting on a runway waiting to take off. I recommend using the tool, though, if you want to see how changes to numbers impact survivability. 

[Infinitum]

33 minutes ago, Bopper said:

45% is softcap, so if you have 46% or 53%, it doesn't matter. As for having higher resistance, that's good. But the invuln has higher HP amd higher regen to combat it.

 

If you want to use 58.75% incarnate softcap, then yes. SD will be more survivable. I dont have time to check it as I'm sitting on a runway waiting to take off. I recommend using the tool, though, if you want to see how changes to numbers impact survivability. 

Yeah I always go by incarnate softcap when i figure anything with an endgame build because thats what you will be facing the majority of the time.

 

I cant figure the tool out honestly - like how you get the comparative resistance numbers by type.

 

Oh btw Safe travels sir  👍

Edited November 9, 2019 by Infinitum

[Bopper]

22 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah I always go by incarnate softcap when i figure anything with an endgame build because thats what you will be facing the majority of the time.

 

I cant figure the tool out honestly - like how you get the comparative resistance numbers by type.

 

Oh btw Safe travels sir  👍

Flight delayed, so I'll fit this in while I can. There is a drop down menu for selecting type of attack (change range to melee, or smash to fire). Remember, only change fields that are green and read the manual/guide for clarification of the field inputs.

 

Additionally, change the tohit on the enemy from 50% to 63.75%

Edited November 9, 2019 by Bopper

[Caulderone]

Assuming 1000 Attack Damage Per Second and 600 second Survival Duration, which is the numbers I believe Bopper was using.

 

vs. +4 AV, incarnate tohit (63.75), Melee attack, I show that Shield build at the following survivability scores:

S/L: 152.11

F/C: 98.25

E/N: 89.64

T: 77.08

P: 54.58

*Note:  These would be the same for AoE, but drop for Ranged.

Edit Note:  Your defensive numbers included Phalanx Fighting having 1 ally in 8 ft. range.  You are still incarnate-capped to Melee and Aoe without this, but Ranged suffers even more if no allies are near you.

 

Same with Invuln. build (assuming perma-DP and 1 target for Invinc.):

S/L: 113.44

F/C: 30.41

E/N: 20.18

T: 10.14

P: 6.33

*Note:  This doesn't take into account the actual Heal from DP once per 2 minutes.  My tired brain will have to wait to tomorrow to try to average that in.

*Note:  Defense debuffs would have the most adverse effect on this build of the 3 here.

 

Same with my SR/ build (assuming 30%HP remaining for scaling resists [744.2 hp]):

S/L: 229.56

F/C: 192.59

E/N: 183.51

T: 73.13

P: 73.13

*note:  AoE and Ranged would be identical (all 3 incarnate capped).

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Caulderone

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Caulderone said:

Assuming 1000 Attack Damage Per Second and 600 second Survival Duration, which is the numbers I believe Bopper was using.

 

vs. +4 AV, incarnate tohit (63.75), Melee attack, I show that Shield build at the following survivability scores:

S/L: 152.11

F/C: 98.25

E/N: 89.64

T: 77.08

P: 54.58

*Note:  These would be the same for AoE, but drop for Ranged.

Edit Note:  Your defensive numbers included Phalanx Fighting having 1 ally in 8 ft. range.  You are still incarnate-capped to Melee and Aoe without this, but Ranged suffers even more if no allies are near you.

 

Same with Invuln. build (assuming perma-DP and 1 target for Invinc.):

S/L: 113.44

F/C: 30.41

E/N: 20.18

T: 10.14

P: 6.33

*Note:  This doesn't take into account the actual Heal from DP once per 2 minutes.  My tired brain will have to wait to tomorrow to try to average that in.

*Note:  Defense debuffs would have the most adverse effect on this build of the 3 here.

 

Same with my SR/ build (assuming 30%HP remaining for scaling resists [744.2 hp]):

S/L: 229.56

F/C: 192.59

E/N: 183.51

T: 73.13

P: 73.13

*note:  AoE and Ranged would be identical (all 3 incarnate capped).

 

 

 

 

I don't ever assume or budget getting that low on hp, but mine has the reactive defense scaling resist also.

 

I think that's one if those variables you don't include here kinda like me not including melee core rotating with one with the shield to perma cap resistances to everything but two. And it's in the 70s or 60s at that point.

 

Or not including 1 ally in range for phalanx fighting for me, IMO the scaling resist proc is a more wild card modifier than any of the above because you have to assume you are getting your butt kicked in the first place in which none of the initial numbers would be that strong at the beginning to let you drop like that anyway.  I just take the 100% guarantee from reactive defenses and leave it at that because it's that number 100% of the time.

 

Could You post your build so I can see how you got to that conclusion?

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I don't ever assume or budget getting that low on hp, but mine has the reactive defense scaling resist also.

I believe he is referring to the scaling resistance that SR has. It kicks in at 60% HP, then scales up in resistance linearly, maximizing at 60% resistance when at 0 HP. So 30% HP is a useful middle ground for assuming 30% resistance.

 

Btw, travels were safe. 5 hour flight, 3 movies watched. Not bad.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Bopper

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

I believe he is referring to the scaling resistance that SR has. It kicks in at 60% HP, then scales up in resistance linearly, maximizing at 60% resistance when at 0 HP. So 30% HP is a useful middle ground for assuming 30% resistance.

 

Btw, travels were safe. 5 hour flight, 3 movies watched. Not bad.

Heh all these years I didn't know SR did that.

 

Functionally though reactive defenses operates the same way and should be included on the other builds or no mechanic like it should be included on any.  There's not really any way to qualify taking damage when you are doing a baseline comparison of a static situation 100% of the time.

 

Glad you had a safe trip.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Infinitum

[Caulderone]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Heh all these years I didn't know SR did that.

 

Functionally though reactive defenses operates the same way and should be included on the other builds or no mechanic like it should be included on any.  There's not really any way to qualify taking damage when you are doing a baseline comparison of a static situation 100% of the time.

 

Glad you had a safe trip.

Yeah, I should have done the 30% HP for all 3.  I thought of that AFTER I posted, but was too tired to fix it last night.  I'll do that below.  This adds 4.9% more resist from the IO for all 3 and 30% resist for SR.  I'll also attach my high level (33-50) build that got those numbers and the 3 spreadsheets with the numbers in them for each build.

 

Shield:

S/L: 228.09

F/C: 132.10

E/N: 117.42

T: 98.46

P: 66.89

 

Invuln:

S/L: 113.44

F/C: 35.01

E/N: 22.26

T: 11.12

P: 6.7

 

SR:

S/L: 229.56

F/C: 192.59

E/N: 183.51

T: 73.13

P: 73.13

Caulderone_33_50.mxd invuln.ods SR Tank Survival 30hp.ods

shield.ods

Edited November 9, 2019 by Caulderone
Fix for Melee Core passive regen bonus in Shield build.

[Caulderone]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

I believe he is referring to the scaling resistance that SR has. It kicks in at 60% HP, then scales up in resistance linearly, maximizing at 60% resistance when at 0 HP. So 30% HP is a useful middle ground for assuming 30% resistance.

 

Btw, travels were safe. 5 hour flight, 3 movies watched. Not bad.

Glad you had a good flight!

 

Just for general informational purposes for Infinitum and others, Brute and Scrapper SR scaling resists start at 50% versus the tank's starting at 60%.  Instead of giving tank a larger resistance value per point, they gave them an earlier starting point.  So, brutes/scrappers at 30% HP would have 20% resists vs tank at 30%.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

Glad you had a good flight!

 

Just for general informational purposes for Infinitum and others, Brute and Scrapper SR scaling resists start at 50% versus the tank's starting at 60%.  Instead of giving tank a larger resistance value per point, they gave them an earlier starting point.  So, brutes/scrappers at 30% HP would have 20% resists vs tank at 30%.

 

can you figure those up, for peak survival, first one is melee core, and rhe second one is the kitchen sink.

 

Shoot I forgot to activate hover.