A Rude Surprise (Stealth vs +Perception)

[Solarverse]

So I was casually running along, minding my own business when suddenly, my Troller who has Invis + Stealth IO ran across some mean ol' Cabal members in Croa. Next thing I knew, they decided that my Invis + Stealth IO was not enough to hide from the wicked grasp of their +perception. It surprised me to say the least.

 

So after asking google and getting no help from that, I asked around in Help channel if Cabal had +perception and to my surprise I was told no by several people. I could have just chalked it up to a bug and went along with my day...but me being the stubborn bastard that I am, I refused and set off for a quest for a real answer.

 

So I started with Stealth under controlled conditions, using level 28 as my standard level and finding even conned minions. They see right through it and proceeded to do what Cabal to best...lighting me up.

 

Next I tried Stealth + Stealth IO. Same result.

 

Invis, same result.

 

invis + Stealth IO, same result.

 

Superior Invis....ahhhh....we finally found a level of Stealth that Cabal cannot see through...even when standing right up against them.

 

So obviously anything Superior Invis and up can conceal themselves from Cabal. Anything with 200 Stealth or better.

 

So, is there a chart someplace where I can find information like this with all enemies who carry stealth and what is needed to beat their stealth? I don't seem to recall any such charts, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I think if such a chart exists, it would sure be helpful to have this chart in a sticky somewhere on these forums.

[EmmySky]

I need this too.  My widow just came up against some sky raiders that didn't give on whit about my 'mask presence'.  Made the mish with an EB and Zeus titan tougher.

[Omega-202]

58 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

So, is there a chart someplace where I can find information like this with all enemies who carry stealth and what is needed to beat their stealth? I don't seem to recall any such charts, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I think if such a chart exists, it would sure be helpful to have this chart in a sticky somewhere on these forums.

The paragonwiki page has some info, although some may be outdated.  https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

 

But regarding your specific situation, the witches don't have +perception.  What they have is an aura:

 

"There are some enemies, most notably Longbow Eagles and some members of The Cabal that have a power called [Positioning] that makes these enemies appear to ignore stealth at times. These enemies are not meant to fight at melee range and Positioning forces them to move away from players. A side effect of this power is that it acts as a short range (8') Area of Effect attack. This "attack" forces stealth to suppress, allowing the enemy to see the player." - from the wiki

 

The "positioning" aura checks for foes within a certain range, and acts like an attack so it suppresses your stealth.  Cabal, Eagles, and some Sky Raiders have it and it just cancels stealth outright. 

[Solarverse]

58 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

The paragonwiki page has some info, although some may be outdated.  https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

 

But regarding your specific situation, the witches don't have +perception.  What they have is an aura:

 

 

 

The "positioning" aura checks for foes within a certain range, and acts like an attack so it suppresses your stealth.  Cabal, Eagles, and some Sky Raiders have it and it just cancels stealth outright. 

Interesting. Makes me wonder how accurate that information is though, since my Stalker was able to hang out with them unnoticed for quite some time, as was my Illusions Controller with Superior Invisibility. Everything below that level of stealth was attacked almost instantly. If it suppressed stealth, then it should have not mattered what type of stealth I had active, I would think.

[Omega-202]

29 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Interesting. Makes me wonder how accurate that information is though, since my Stalker was able to hang out with them unnoticed for quite some time, as was my Illusions Controller with Superior Invisibility. Everything below that level of stealth was attacked almost instantly. If it suppressed stealth, then it should have not mattered what type of stealth I had active, I would think.

Could be that the Positioning power has a hit check.  Stalker hide has a huge amount of AoE defense when not suppressed and Superior Invis gives a solid amount too.  Could be that the checks missed.

 

No offense but I'm going to assume that the wiki is right on this and there's some other reason you feel like they didn't spot you with Superior Invis or Hide.  Go back, get within 8 feet and open your combat window and report back.  

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Could be that the Positioning power has a hit check.  Stalker hide has a huge amount of AoE defense when not suppressed and Superior Invis gives a solid amount too.  Could be that the checks missed.

 

No offense but I'm going to assume that the wiki is right on this and there's some other reason you feel like they didn't spot you with Superior Invis or Hide.  Go back, get within 8 feet and open your combat window and report back.  

No offense taken. We are both players trying to find a logical explanation through trial, error and using what information we have available. I'll look more in to this tomorrow and post back.

[Drazah Krad]

just out of curiosity do you have the absorb IO in your build. Cause I had this happen a few times recently and I'm wondering if when it procs, it enables mobs to see you briefly. Seeing if it was just coincidental for me.

[Erydanus]

I believe the mechanics invisibility powers, as opposed to stealth powers (even stacked) are slightly different.  I think because of this, Superior Invisibility and Hide would shrug this positioning power off. Super Invis does not suppress when you attack in the same way that stealth does, though your defense is reduced; it also has a -threat component. It would be interesting to open your combat attributes and monitor your defense and see if it takes a reduction when you get within range of them.  I think Hide is the same way. It would also be interesting to have someone use Grant Invisibility and then test this as well.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Drazah Krad said:

just out of curiosity do you have the absorb IO in your build. Cause I had this happen a few times recently and I'm wondering if when it procs, it enables mobs to see you briefly. Seeing if it was just coincidental for me.

None at all. I don't use IO's until level 50 with the exception of Stealth IO's in any builds that I use Stealth with.

 

I actually put together a video showing a test that I had conducted. Both tests using the same mob type within reasonable levels of my malfactored level 29 characters. One character only had Superior Invisibility, while the other character had Invisibility + Stealth IO. I have uploaded a Youtube video that can be found here.

 

I didn't edit very well, so there is a long dark spot you have to fast forward through, sorry about the bad editing.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Solarverse

[Omega-202]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

None at all. I don't use IO's until level 50 with the exception of Stealth IO's in any builds that I use Stealth with.

 

I actually put together a video showing a test that I had conducted. Both tests using the same mob type within reasonable levels of my malfactored level 29 characters. One character only had Superior Invisibility, while the other character had Invisibility + Stealth IO. I have uploaded a Youtube video that can be found here.

 

I didn't edit very well, so there is a long dark spot you have to fast forward through, sorry about the bad editing.

Now that is odd.  A few observations:

 

- You were there for plenty long in the SI test for a bunch of ticks of any aura to have gone off.  Could have been useful if you had the combat window in your chat open to see if attack rolls were being made against you, just in case, but I can't see how this could be explained by just a high AoE defense stat.  

 

- They didn't react to you like a normal stealth spotting enemy.  Rikti drones for example will turn and follow you immediately once you're in range.  There was an odd lag, as if there was some sort of check or roll being made.  I'm curious if there's something to that.  

 

Now I'm super curious about what's going on here.  I wonder if anyone else has any ideas.

[Doomguide2005]

The only other thoughts coming to mind are try using the temp power "Power Analyzer" or similar power (Surveillance iirc) .  Been awhile but I believe those are the correct names of those powers. 

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

Could have been useful if you had the combat window in your chat open to see if attack rolls were being made against you, just in case, but I can't see how this could be explained by just a high AoE defense stat. 

Done; got the link right here with combat window open.

[Omega-202]

47 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Done; got the link right here with combat window open.

I'm stumped.  Next step is Power Analyzer/Surveillance.  I can see if I can hop on a Bane spider on test in the next couple of days.  Maybe we can get more info about what effects they have active.  

[Solarverse]

37 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I'm stumped.  Next step is Power Analyzer/Surveillance.  I can see if I can hop on a Bane spider on test in the next couple of days.  Maybe we can get more info about what effects they have active.  

Looking forward to that.

[Mikewho]

I have noticed several enemies in game that simply defy the rules about perception and stealth. Several AVs on the STF and LRSF are like this. I tried everything to figure it out, tests with different stealth levels, power analyzer, etc. Ultimately I couldn’t figure out the behavior. I hope you guys can!

[The_Cheeseman]

48 minutes ago, Kaylin said:

I have noticed several enemies in game that simply defy the rules about perception and stealth. Several AVs on the STF and LRSF are like this. I tried everything to figure it out, tests with different stealth levels, power analyzer, etc. Ultimately I couldn’t figure out the behavior. I hope you guys can!

Yes, according to my observations, the AVs in LRSF are scripted to check every few seconds for player characters in range and automatically aggro them. There didn't seem to be any perception check, as even at max range for my confuse, they could still see through my invis (65% from Concealment/Stealth+IO, for reference) I believe this script starts running as soon as they enter a combat state for the first time. After you've aggroed them once, you can see a periodic animation "tick" where they appear to enter combat stance for a second before returning to idle. It's basically the only reason the LRSF isn't completely trivial for a mind dom.

Needless to say, this knowledge was gained through repeated deaths (though I did manage to finish it).

[Solarverse]

On 11/13/2019 at 8:40 PM, Omega-202 said:

I'm stumped.  Next step is Power Analyzer/Surveillance.  I can see if I can hop on a Bane spider on test in the next couple of days.  Maybe we can get more info about what effects they have active.  

I picked up Surveillance on my Blaster and scoped a ton of them out. All of them have zero buffs running except for an accuracy bonus, at 1.15x with a To Hit Bonus of 50%. Perception is at 50 ft. No other buffs at all, with exception to resistance, 33% for energy and Cold, with a -20% resist to Negative and Psionic. They also get a 10% To Hit Resist.

 

So why they are seeing Invis + Stealth IO is beyond me. You have to have Superior Invis or better for them to not be able to see you...and based on this information put together, I can only come to the conclusion that this is a bug specific to Cabal.

[Drazah Krad]

Great work going through those steps, at this point it looks like a coding/game mechanic that we as player can't detect. Hopefully someone can shed light to it though as its definitely worth investigation