The Current PUG Meta (aka ramblings of an old man)

[ShardWarrior]

On 11/19/2019 at 1:23 PM, golstat2003 said:

And I would like to NEVER see this change. thanks but not thanks.

I agree.  The suggestion seems to be coming from a false premise that support ATs (eg. Defenders / Controllers) are in some way not desirable.  In my experience, this simply isn't true.  Any AT is desirable and welcome on any team I run.  All of them bring something to the table and I have been on many successful TFs without the "optimal" team makeup.  The "trinity" as a requirement is a relic in my opinion.  

 

I've said this in other threads - the problem is not with power creep or incarnates overpowering everyone.  The problem is there is not enough content designed for Incarnate level teams to be a challenge for them. 

[ShardWarrior]

51 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Yeah, would probably be better if there were end game content created that simply could not be done without a well rounded team. Probably the fairest way to go about it.

There is nothing fair about requiring a specific team makeup in order to run content.

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

There is nothing fair about requiring a specific team makeup in order to run content.

But you think it's fair that all content in game can be done without certain classes? Where does this leave those classes? As I see it, it is currently only "fair" to people who see it your way. If you want to say my idea isn't fair, then fair enough, I can respect that, but at least give me an alternative to consider, because right now, as it stands, there are other classes that are poor underdogs, where as at one time, those classes were very much needed and respected.

 

It would seem people are perfectly happy kicking them down in to the dirt, which is essentially exactly what we have done...and then keeping them there. So alternatives are needed. This is an MMO, that was originally designed to make ALL classes needed and respected on teams. Now we have a Just Us Club going on, which this game was not originally designed for. Something needs to change and keeping the lacking and under-performing classes in the dirt is not the answer.

 

So far, every suggestion made to make it "fair" has been shot down by the players who want to be able to solo everything in game. I don't see a single thing "fair" about that.

[Solarverse]

13 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I've said this in other threads - the problem is not with power creep or incarnates overpowering everyone.  The problem is there is not enough content designed for Incarnate level teams to be a challenge for them. 

Wait, didn't you say that wasn't "fair?"

 

Isn't that exactly what I asked for? More challenging content? If they make more challenging content, that would require players to build well balanced teams. I'm seeing a sort of an unintended contradiction here on your part.

[nzer]

I'm not entirely sure why people are talking about content requiring optimal team comps when no one has asked for that. The original comment was about players being encouraged, but not required, to have diverse team comps that include support characters rather than being able to steamroll everything with, say, eight blasters, which you can absolutely currently do.

[nihilii]

18 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

But you think it's fair that all content in game can be done without certain classes? Where does this leave those classes?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but this seems to imply there are certain classes that are needed for specific pieces of content. Save for the Hamidon (which is a terribly, terribly designed encounter if you ask me), this is not true. Every archetype being optional may or may not be a design goal, but it should be, and I'm glad that's the current reality of the game.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, nzer said:

I'm not entirely sure why people are talking about content requiring optimal team comps when no one has asked for that. The original comment was about players being encouraged, but not required, to have diverse team comps that include support characters rather than being able to steamroll everything with, say, eight blasters, which you can absolutely currently do.

Mainly, because if it can be done with relative ease, people will have no reason to purposely look for Healers or Trollers. As it stands now, when I currently build teams for TF or the likes, I don't even bother checking people's classes because I have no real reason to. This was not the case at one time. It's clear content in this game is too easy from what I can see. So I tossed out the idea of creating more challenging end game content as a slight suggestion....it kind of spiraled from there.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Maybe I'm misreading this, but this seems to imply there are certain classes that are needed for specific pieces of content.

Not how I meant it, what I am saying is that as of right now, this could not be further from the truth.

[nzer]

46 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Mainly, because if it can be done with relative ease, people will have no reason to purposely look for Healers or Trollers.

Right, that's what I'm getting at

Edited November 20, 2019 by nzer

[siolfir]

28 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

This was not the case at one time.

Pre-IOs, but even then you could fill in with inspirations on a transient basis.

 

I'm still wondering why it is that you feel that support ATs are undesired on teams, just because they're not required on teams.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

Pre-IOs, but even then you could fill in with inspirations on a transient basis.

 

I'm still wondering why it is that you feel that support ATs are undesired on teams, just because they're not required on teams.

Experience. People aren't making these observations up.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Experience. People aren't making these observations up.

Do you really want to team with people who would look at you at go "Ugh, a controller. They don't do anything." Sounds like you're better off.

[nzer]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Do you really want to team with people who would look at you at go "Ugh, a controller. They don't do anything." Sounds like you're better off.

I think it's more about wanting to feel rewarded for having assembled a balanced team. It feels good to recruit a controller and be able to say "nice, this controller will really help" rather than just not caring what AT the person is using.

[Solarverse]

10 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Do you really want to team with people who would look at you at go "Ugh, a controller. They don't do anything." Sounds like you're better off.

Huh? I think you have read something way wrong, that's not what I said...not even close to what I said.

[nzer]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Huh? I think you have read something way wrong, that's not what I said...not even close to what I said.

They're saying the kind of people who would reject a controller right now because controllers aren't valuable aren't the kind of people you'd want to team with if controllers eventually became valuable.

[EmmySky]

I play all ATs but I do love my 'support' toons.  Just because they aren't required on teams doesn't mean they arent welcome on teams.  I have not found any teams that arent happy to have me no matter what AT or powersets I bring. 

 

Conversly, I have found that teams that are looking for a tank specifically or a defender specifically tend to be populated or lead by people new to the game or who have yet to come to the understanding that we got this. 

 

I think that someone on some thread (@Ukase on this thread I believe) said it best, the player behind the avatar is the real enhancement.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by EmmySky

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, nzer said:

They're saying the kind of people who would reject a controller right now because controllers aren't valuable aren't the kind of people you'd want to team with if controllers eventually became valuable.

Ah okay, I see now. I do agree.

[Apparition]

22 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

I play all ATs but I do love my 'support' toons.  Just because they aren't required on teams doesn't mean they arent welcome on teams.  I have not found any teams that arent happy to have me no matter what AT or powersets I bring. 

 

Conversly, I have found that teams that are looking for a tank specifically or a defender specifically tend to be populated or lead by people new to the game or who have yet to come to the understanding that we got this. 

 

I think that someone on some thread (@Ukase on this thread I believe) said it best, the player behind the avatar is the real enhancement.  

 

Yep.  I am happy to have whatever on my team and play with whatever.  But if I see someone forming something in LFG and they say, "Need a tank!"  Or "Need a healer!" that's a very large warning sign.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, nzer said:

They're saying the kind of people who would reject a controller right now because controllers aren't valuable aren't the kind of people you'd want to team with if controllers eventually became valuable.

Close - I fixed that for you. I wasn't saying that controllers aren't valuable now, which the part I crossed out implies.

 

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

I play all ATs but I do love my 'support' toons.  Just because they aren't required on teams doesn't mean they arent welcome on teams.  I have not found any teams that arent happy to have me no matter what AT or powersets I bring. 

 

Conversly, I have found that teams that are looking for a tank specifically or a defender specifically tend to be populated or lead by people new to the game or who have yet to come to the understanding that we got this. 

 

I think that someone on some thread (@Ukase on this thread I believe) said it best, the player behind the avatar is the real enhancement.  

This has been my experience also, which is where my original question came from. I'm not disputing that there are people out there that might feel that way, but I haven't run into many and I would be happy to not be on that particular team.

 

I also check to see what powersets my teammates have, but that's so I can try to figure out what to expect from them and how to mesh how I play with them. I even check to see how many set bonuses people have to know if I need to provide extra support there, or if I can just run off and do my own thing (I have a few characters with all SOs and a few that are fully kitted out - their needs on a team are vastly different).

 

What annoys me on teams are just bad players - if we're going specifically into control sets, the "ooo, let's wormhole everything away from the tank and into the middle of the squishies", "must use AoE immobilize as soon as I get within max range while everything is still scattered" type. Those exist on every AT, though, and most of the time, the "challenge" in the game comes from dealing with those situations, though, so I try to adapt until it becomes obvious that they're either doing it maliciously or just aren't learning. Then I let them deal with the situation they created rather than trying to bail them out. If they can, great! That means they can do it in the future, too, and it's no longer my problem.

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

But you think it's fair that all content in game can be done without certain classes?

Sure.  Why not?  Are you suggesting people are not inviting or kicking Controllers or Defenders off of teams because they "aren't needed"?  I'm sure that does happen, but those people who do it are stupid in my opinion.  I'm sure there are people who prefer a brute over a tank or a stalker over a scrapper too.  From my experience, overwhelming majority of the time, PUG teams work just fine regardless of AT mix.  That is a good thing to me.

 

Personally, I love having Controllers or Defenders on a team.  I even remade my Empath I had on Live recently as my next project.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Wait, didn't you say that wasn't "fair?"

 

Isn't that exactly what I asked for? More challenging content? If they make more challenging content, that would require players to build well balanced teams. I'm seeing a sort of an unintended contradiction here on your part.

No, that isn't what I said.  More challenging to me means a team of incarnates (regardless of AT mix) not steamrolling +4 x 8 TF or ITrial runs.  What you're asking for is content that requires a certain AT mix in order to complete.  Much different.

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Experience. People aren't making these observations up.

I don't know, Solar... We seem to have had very different experiences with that. I've been spending most of my play-time recently running a Time/Dark Defender on Everlasting. I haven't had any trouble at all finding teams (PUGs or otherwise-) with her. She's been welcomed in all of them I've joined... Even the one with the peacebringer who kept blasting groups out of my Distortion Field and the fire Dom's Bonfire, and then wondering why we were both facepalming. XD

 

I'm just not seeing this "support characters left in the dirt"-thing... We may not be absolutely NECESSARY to success these days, but we're still force multipliers and other players typically are smart enough to recognize that in my experience.

[Solarverse]

36 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

No, that isn't what I said.  More challenging to me means a team of incarnates (regardless of AT mix) not steamrolling +4 x 8 TF or ITrial runs.  What you're asking for is content that requires a certain AT mix in order to complete.  Much different.

Ah okay, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Solarverse]

26 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I don't know, Solar... We seem to have had very different experiences with that. I've been spending most of my play-time recently running a Time/Dark Defender on Everlasting. I haven't had any trouble at all finding teams (PUGs or otherwise-) with her. She's been welcomed in all of them I've joined... Even the one with the peacebringer who kept blasting groups out of my Distortion Field and the fire Dom's Bonfire, and then wondering why we were both facepalming. XD

 

I'm just not seeing this "support characters left in the dirt"-thing... We may not be absolutely NECESSARY to success these days, but we're still force multipliers and other players typically are smart enough to recognize that in my experience.

I can well enough imagine the facepalming there, heh.

 

I don't see it as an epidemic or anything, IMO the game could continue as is and be just fine...however, games constantly change, and if it's going to change I would like to see it change for the better. I simply don't want to see classes become alienated in the future. Like I said, it's not much of an issue now (not that it has never been an issue, just saying not much of one) I just would like to see the game go in a direction that makes all classes equally desired...if that is even possible. At this point we get in to balancing...and as we all know, balancing in an MMO has always been the most tricky thing to do. CoH felt way more balanced back in the day, but even so, it still remains the most balanced MMO I have ever played even as it stands today. So having said that, I just hope it stays that way, or even more so.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

But if I see someone forming something in LFG and they say, "Need a tank!"  Or "Need a healer!" that's a very large warning sign.

 I can see why "need a healer" could be a warning sign?  But other AT's?  I've called for 'em now and again because the team has a weakness, a hole that needs plugging.  Or, sometimes when playing story missions I'm familiar with, I have a plan as to how I want to approach the coming mission.