pvp only accolades

[Razor Cure]

4 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I've listened, and you haven't said anything that has caused me to rethink my previous stance. PvE is already catered to. PvP asking for a little help is reasonable. And almost all those against it are against it simply because they don't like PvP.

Please point me to the part where I said I don't like pvp. Go on, I will wait.

Also..if I did actually say that, it isn't true. I wouldn't say I super lvoe happy fun time pvp, but I don't dislike it.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Razor Cure

[MunkiLord]

I didn't accuse you specifically of not liking PvP. I properly qualified my statement.

[Warlawk]

7 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I've listened, and you haven't said anything that has caused me to rethink my previous stance. PvE is already catered to. PvP asking for a little help is reasonable. And almost all those against it are against it simply because they don't like PvP.

Translation "I'm a minority and I'm being oppressed!"

Are you able to present a reason other than simply not wanting to do the content for why this change should be implemented?

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

Translation "I'm a minority and I'm being oppressed!"

Are you able to present a reason other than simply not wanting to do the content for why this change should be implemented?

He kinda isn't. That and anyone against his idea is 'being unreasonable.'

At least Mac made the valid point about the global pvp resistance buffs. Although I think they were also to cover Epic shields having very specific res/def to a few starts, and nothing to everything else.

[M3z]

5 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

This. I support this idea..getting NEW players into pvp. But, it is totally unrealistic. Back on Live, after the BIG pvp changes (travel sup, damage tweaks, etc, I forget the Issue), many people I know gave up on PVP. Granted, none were the super hardcore crowd, but the amount of difference just killed it for them. ANd they never went back.

Likewise, even now, if MrNewPvP suddenly hears about getting free accolades in a pvp zone (also, assuming he does NOT already have them from doing his pve, rendering the entire idea of getting new players into pvp, moot), who is to say his build can hack it?

I know from my time pvping, how few builds are actually viable, and how an even smaller subset are actually top tier. And all those builds 'require' a stack of pvp IOs, purples, boosted IOs (i am assuming thats what nearly all dedicated pvp builds have). The odds of a pve'er having pvp IOs? Pretty damn slim. More likely his build would be totally inappropiate, and some tricked out (Insert FoTM here) would just utterly spank him. Even WITH a few more hp from those accolades.

Granted, that may encourage him to look more into pvp, and that would be awesome. But speaking from experience, it is more likely to have him go 'wtf, all me powers are different, blow this,' and go back to what he enjoys.

The community is aware of the problems you've described. We never asked for i13 and all of the formulas and filters stacked on top of this games base mechanics. Giving people the accolades hp/end buff isn't meant to fix all the problems pvp has, just meant to lower the bar of entry a little bit. That's all.

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Warlawk said:

Translation "I'm a minority and I'm being oppressed!"

Are you able to present a reason other than simply not wanting to do the content for why this change should be implemented?

I don't PvP at all, no interest in it whatsoever personally. I feel this is a reasonable request that wouldn't impact me or others that don't PvP, and since the PvP base is consistently shit on by the rest of the players and generally ignored by development teams in the past, I think it's fair that they get some love and attention too.

 

Additionally, having more active and happy players, whether PvE or PvP, is a good thing for the game overall and will benefit everyone in the long run. So many people being against anything and everything PvP is short term thinking, petty, and self centered. The game being more accessible to more people in more ways, is a good thing as it has the potential to grow it, which would keep it around even longer.

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I'm not fighting to get the badges. I've already said I care nothing at all for the badges. This isn't, and never was, about getting the badges.

And yet, you've dogged me every single post since I mentioned that those were what I didn't want freely handed out to PvPers.

 

1 hour ago, macskull said:

If we are going to make arguments about limited developer resources

... which I've never once mentioned or even hinted at, making this a straw man argument.

 

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Why is it that whenever the PvP community asks for a little bit of developer attention everyone suddenly cries foul?

Back on Live, the PvP community regularly and constantly called for sweeping changes to the game, which would have been to the benefit of PvP and the detriment of everything else.

 

Not once or twice or thrice.  But, as I'm sure I said earlier in this thread, like clockwork.  If there weren't at least three such suggestions in any two-week span, it was an event of great significance.  (And usually, at least once a month, the suggestion was "open-world PvP with full access to all zones by both sides" ... half of which were "no opt-out".  Yes, that caliber of "suggestion" was quite common on Live.  And not just from noobz and the like, but just as often, from longtime players.)

 

I witnessed that pattern, myself, first-hand for years.  I joined City of Heroes in the summer of 2005 - mid-July, I believe it was (I remember just missing out on the 1st Anniversary badge).  I stayed here, without break, through the end 2008, maybe a little bit into January of 2009, very shortly before the closed beta for Issue 14.  In those four and a half years, I saw so very many suggestions from the PvP community that absolutely HAD to be opposed, vigorously, that ... yes, I'll admit, I enter any pro-PvP Suggestion thread with some wariness.  Because the PvP community trained me to react that way.

 

Nonetheless, I absolutely do not oppose things just because they are PvP ideas.  I am often tempted to, but I don't let myself do that.  Not without a concrete reason.

This thread has produced a compromise idea I am fully, 100% in favor of: in Arenas and PVP zones, suppress all existing Accolade powers and provide a zone- or arena-wide buff that mimics the cumulative effect of those accolades.  So, you see, I am not just "opposed to anything PvP".  I am instead, opposed to anything PvP that impacts PvE, in even the slightest avoidable way.

 

...

 

I've asked you, already, and you seem to be avoiding the questions, so I'll make them as inescapably visible as I can:

There is a version of this suggestion I have voiced 100% support of, as it adequately addresses my sole objection (trivializing the acqusition of generally-PvE badges which have traditionally not been trivial to obtain).  Why do you persist in attacking my objection to that trivializing of badges, if you don't care for the badges, and only want a level playing field for PvP?  Why do you persist in not saying to me, "okay, that's a possible compromise we could both live with" ...?

 

Seriously, I'd like to know the answer to those questions.  If you even have one.

[Warlawk]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

and since the PvP base is consistently shit on by the rest of the players and generally ignored by development teams in the past, I think it's fair that they get some love and attention too.

A change that requires investment of resources should be judged on its own merit, not because you feel people should pity the target demographic for said change and give them free stuff because they've had a hard knock life.

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Think some posters see the forums as a pvp zone

.... read my signature.

😄 Of course, it's 99.999% a joke, but still ... talk about low-hanging fruit for a laugh, eh?  😄 

Edited September 2, 2019 by PaxArcana

[MunkiLord]

4 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

A change that requires investment of resources should be judged on its own merit, not because you feel people should pity the target demographic for said change and give them free stuff because they've had a hard knock life.

The rest of my post addressed that. And others have pointed out many times why such a change would be beneficial. 

[PaxArcana]

38 minutes ago, macskull said:

...You do know that PvP IOs work in PvE, right? They still enhance the power they're slotted in, and they provide set bonuses in PvE.

But you can't get them in PvE. You have to PvP for them.

 

Just like, you can't get Accolades in PvP.  You have to PvE for them.

So for everyone saying "fair's fair, balanced is good" ... do those PvP recipes start dropping from purely PvE enemies, in purely PvE zones and missions?

[MunkiLord]

Just now, PaxArcana said:

But you can't get them in PvE. You have to PvP for them.

 

Just like, you can't get Accolades in PvP.  You have to PvE for them.

So for everyone saying "fair's fair, balanced is good" ... do those PvP recipes start dropping from purely PvE enemies, in purely PvE zones and missions?

They do drop in PvE content now. And can be bought from the auction house and merit vendors. 

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

A change that requires investment of resources should be judged on its own merit, not because you feel people should pity the target demographic for said change and give them free stuff because they've had a hard knock life.

I find it interesting that in many MMOs PVP'rs tend to get more concessions from the design teams than other subsets of players,

 

I wonder why this is.

 

Are PVP advocates more confrontational?  I don't know.  Sometimes anecdotally it seems they are.  

Are a lot of Devs PVPrs at heart?  Definitely they are in a lot of games.  

Is it that PVP is competitive and thus leads to this sort of lobbying?  

 

 

[PaxArcana]

Just now, MunkiLord said:

They do drop in PvE content now. And can be bought from the auction house and merit vendors. 

You say they drop in PvE.  Does that happen outside of PvP zones?  Because if not, then it's not really PvE.  As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the moment you set foot in a PvP zone, you're in PvP - even if there isn't another player in the zone, because at any point, there could be, and they could find you and attack you.

If it does happen outside of PvP zones .... then I object to it, just as much as I object to the opposite.  And for much the same reason: PvP content should be PvP content, and require at least the risk of actually experiencing PvP combat.  No exceptions.

 

As for the AH, eh, I expect if you couldn't sell them, PvPers woudl be upset when they got their second or third copy of some recipe or other that they don't need even one of, and could only treat it as vendor-trash.

Merits, though .... if there are any Merit Vendors in PvP zones, you should only be able to buy them from there.  Because, again, PvP content (and rewards) should require at least some risk of being PvP'd.

 

...

 

See, I'm a zealous protector of the dividing line, in BOTH directions.

[Warlawk]

3 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

You say they drop in PvE.  Does that happen outside of PvP zones?

Yes, they can drop anywhere including AE farms.

 

Them dropping only in PvP while being powerful for pve was a prime example of the negative effects that brings. It caused exploitative behavior (AFK farming pvp kills etc) and had devastating effects on the economy. It had a very detrimental effect on the game.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Warlawk

[Razor Cure]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I find it interesting that in many MMOs PVP'rs tend to get more concessions from the design teams than other subsets of players,

 

I wonder why this is.

 

Are PVP advocates more confrontational?  I don't know.  Sometimes anecdotally it seems they are.  

Are a lot of Devs PVPrs at heart?  Definitely they are in a lot of games.  

Is it that PVP is competitive and thus leads to this sort of lobbying?  

 

 

Maybe. I don't think that applies in CoX pvp though. The i13, or whenever, changes, just totally BORKED pvp, in ways that were never wanted, in any way, shape or form. I read a lot of good threads on proposed pvp changes, written by people who did nothing else, with the goal of brinding as much balance and functionality into pvp as possible. As far as I know, 99% of those ideas got ignored altogether.

Can;t really blame any of the pvp crown for being passionate about wanting to change things for the better.

[PaxArcana]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I find it interesting that in many MMOs PVP'rs tend to get more concessions from the design teams than other subsets of players,

 

I wonder why this is.

There is, I believe, a perception that PvPers will remain subscribers for longer periods of time.

 

Also, at least some development teams are themselves rabidly pro-PvP.  Auto Assault, for example.  When the PvE crowd wanted Epic gear of their own, that was better than Crafted and/or PVE-quest-reward stuff (not necessarily better than PvP-reward stuff, just, better than what the PVE-only folks could already get), the developer who designed those quests vindictively made them as sterotypically boring and tedious as he possibly could.  And then multiplied all the tedium by a factor of ten ...!

[PaxArcana]

3 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

Yes, they can drop anywhere including AE farms.

Then that is definitely wrong, and should be changed back.  PvP-specific rewards should only drop in PvP areas.  We PvE players who want them, should simply have to either suck it up and try PvP .... or spend INF in the Auction Hall.

 

As for the economy impact .... just set them to drop from NPC mobs, in PvP zones.

 

Or, Dev time permitting, a PvP Merit system (if there isn't one already) could be made, that rewards you for PvP activities.  Some for fulfilling objectives in PvP zones.  Some randomly from PvE enemies in PvP zones.  Some for door missions in PvP zones.  None, perhaps, for defeating anyone (or else, just a little, win or lose).  And maybe some just for spending time in a PvP zone, outside of the safe-haven of your faction's base.

And then use those to BUY the recipes you want.

Edited September 2, 2019 by PaxArcana

[macskull]

22 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

He kinda isn't. That and anyone against his idea is 'being unreasonable.'

At least Mac made the valid point about the global pvp resistance buffs. Although I think they were also to cover Epic shields having very specific res/def to a few starts, and nothing to everything else.

Epic shields also give resistance or defense to all damage types, and melee armor sets give defense or resistance to psi where they don't in PvE.

15 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

<long post snipped for brevity>

I have already said as much in that getting the bonuses without the badges is an acceptable "compromise" though I don't think there's any need for compromise to happen here. What I don't accept is your assertion that PvPers were asking for changes "like clockwork" that were "to the detriment of PvE." I asked you to provide any examples of that and you either couldn't or were unwilling to. You're making broad generalizations that, even if they were true at the time, no longer apply to the current iteration of this game. There has only been one time in the entire history of this game where a power or mechanic received a nerf in PvE for solely PvP reasons.

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

You say they drop in PvE.  Does that happen outside of PvP zones?  Because if not, then it's not really PvE.  As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the moment you set foot in a PvP zone, you're in PvP - even if there isn't another player in the zone, because at any point, there could be, and they could find you and attack you.

If it does happen outside of PvP zones .... then I object to it, just as much as I object to the opposite.  And for much the same reason: PvP content should be PvP content, and require at least the risk of actually experiencing PvP combat.  No exceptions.

 

As for the AH, eh, I expect if you couldn't sell them, PvPers woudl be upset when they got their second or third copy of some recipe or other that they don't need even one of, and could only treat it as vendor-trash.

Merits, though .... if there are any Merit Vendors in PvP zones, you should only be able to buy them from there.  Because, again, PvP content (and rewards) should require at least some risk of being PvP'd.

 

...

 

See, I'm a zealous protector of the dividing line, in BOTH directions.

The original intention of PvP IOs was to provide a tangible reward for PvP because they only dropped from player enemies. They also provide set bonuses in PvE because everyone at the time realized that even if you're a PvP character you're going to have to PvE at least somewhat. The PvP IOs were always tradeable on the auction house or via in-game trade/email so you could always obtain them without any PvP. I don't think PvPers complained then, because PvP IOs sold for a lot of inf and it was generally worth the time to farm them.

[PaxArcana]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

I have already said as much in that getting the bonuses without the badges is an acceptable "compromise" though I don't think there's any need for compromise to happen here.

Then you now admit, you want the badges too?  So noted, and my vote on the suggestion firms up as: /JRanger

 

Congratulations on that, by the way.  Instead of a potential ally, you have a staunch opponent.  Good job. [/snark]

 

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

What I don't accept is your assertion that PvPers were asking for changes "like clockwork" that were "to the detriment of PvE." I asked you to provide any examples of that and you either couldn't or were unwilling to.

Let me get this straight: you want me to cite specific and detailed examples from over ten years ago, purely from memory, that happened on a forum that no longer exists in intact and human-readable form.

 

And now, you want to hold my inability to comply with your entirely unreasonable demand, as somehow being a strike against me?

 

Don't.  Make.  Me.  Laugh.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Warlawk]

 

41 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

The rest of my post addressed that. And others have pointed out many times why such a change would be beneficial. 

 

49 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I don't PvP at all, no interest in it whatsoever personally. I feel this is a reasonable request that wouldn't impact me or others that don't PvP, and since the PvP base is consistently shit on by the rest of the players and generally ignored by development teams in the past, I think it's fair that they get some love and attention too.

 

Additionally, having more active and happy players, whether PvE or PvP, is a good thing for the game overall and will benefit everyone in the long run. So many people being against anything and everything PvP is short term thinking, petty, and self centered. The game being more accessible to more people in more ways, is a good thing as it has the potential to grow it, which would keep it around even longer.

My mistake, I had dismissed this as feel good rhetoric. Happy players is good, giving things away that are relatively easy to earn is not. I'm actually in the middle of grinding out accolades right now so I'm not going on a google crusade to find studies but it has been studied and found that when players are given the important parts of their character development for little to no effort, there is a lower level of engagement and investment in said character. This results in lower long term retention of said player.

 

Same as if you go to Justin and just create your character from scratch. I wanted to see if anyone would go here or not but it didn't happen. Part of the reason people are not interested in doing so is because it creates no investment, no bond and no engagement with your character when it's just a pile of free loot you stacked onto a level 50. It's how the human brain works, release of dopamine, reward chemicals yadda yadda yadda. As a character is leveled and things like accolades are earned your brain releases those things because you've met a goal. Regardless if you enjoyed the gameplay or not, chemically it is now imprinted on your brain as a Good Thing. Removing that aspect of a character lessens the investment so we would likely see less long term retention and growth, not more.

 

And let's not present things that are completely unreasonable as if they were fact. A change like this is not going to bring any appreciable number of new players to pvp, it's just going to mean the existing pvp players don't have to invest the same time into a character that everyone else does to earn that reward.

 

7 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

I'm actually in the middle of grinding out accolades right now

 

And just for the record, on a fresh 50 I was able to solo grind through Portal Jockey, Atlas Medallion and Invader in just a couple hours last night and a couple hours today. This is literally the first time I've ever bothered to grind out these accolades and it's not exactly demanding or an oppressively large time investment.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Warlawk

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Then you now admit, you want the badges too?  So noted, and my vote on the suggestion firms up as: /JRanger

 

Let me get this straight: you want me to cite specific and detailed examples from over ten years ago, purely from memory, that happened on a forum that no longer exists in intact and human-readable form.

 

And now, you want to hold my inability to comply with your entirely unreasonable demand, as somehow being a strike against me?

 

Don't.  Make.  Me.  Laugh.

 

 

Evidently this thread has been going on *slightly* longer than it first seemed. 

[PaxArcana]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Evidently this thread has been going on *slightly* longer than it first seemed. 

No.  The claim Mac is referring to, was that back on the Live forums - as in, for my own experience, from mid-2004 to early 2009 - there was a pattern of PvP suggestions that would have very badly affected PvE play.

Edited September 2, 2019 by PaxArcana

[BlastLord]

I accturally like this idea of PvP accolades when entering the PvP zones they activate only in the PvP zones and obtaining them in the PvP zones only.

[macskull]

22 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

Yes, they can drop anywhere including AE farms.

 

Them dropping only in PvP while being powerful for pve was a prime example of the negative effects that brings. It caused exploitative behavior (AFK farming pvp kills etc) and had devastating effects on the economy. It had a very detrimental effect on the game.

I find it odd that someone who created an entire thread devoted to finding the best farming build thinks farming for PvP IOs is exploitative behavior. Moving on past that, though - could you elaborate on the effect PvP IOs had on the ingame economy? The existence of PvP IOs did not affect the prices of anything else on the market.

19 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Then that is definitely wrong, and should be changed back.  PvP-specific rewards should only drop in PvP areas.  We PvE players who want them, should simply have to either suck it up and try PvP .... or spend INF in the Auction Hall.

 

As for the economy impact .... just set them to drop from NPC mobs, in PvP zones.

 

Or, Dev time permitting, a PvP Merit system (if there isn't one already) could be made, that rewards you for PvP activities.  Some for fulfilling objectives in PvP zones.  Some randomly from PvE enemies in PvP zones.  Some for door missions in PvP zones.  None, perhaps, for defeating anyone (or else, just a little, win or lose).  And maybe some just for spending time in a PvP zone, outside of the safe-haven of your faction's base.

And then use those to BUY the recipes you want.

So if you really wanted to keep PvP IOs entirely separate from PvE you wouldn't be able to sell them on the auction house or trade/email them ingame. I'm going to reiterate that simply stepping foot in a PvP zone does not mean you are engaging in PvP, but rather than you are consenting to engage in PvP should there be other players present. As I've now said multiple times, other than Recluse's Victory on Indomitable and maybe Torchbearer, the PvP zones on Homecoming are largely empty. Defeating PvE mobs in a PvP zone isn't PvP. Doing door missions in a PvP zone isn't PvP, though in at least one of the PvP zones you can get temporary ally buffs or enemy debuffs that apply zone-wide by completing door missions. If there were PvP-based objectives then that's something I could get behind, and objective-based PvP was a QoL request from the PvP playerbase that (surprise) was completely ignored when PvP was overhauled in I13.

 

There's already a "PvP merit" system of sorts - the bounty system in Siren's Call lets you buy PvP temporary powers with reputation earned from player kills, but that requires the zone to be active in order to utilize and it's just not the case these days.