Looking for input on "Exotic" slotting for Call Enforcers.

[Seroster01]

The following post devolved into a wall of text, as my posts frequently do, so the TL;DR summary is the following: which 2 of the following 4 IOs would you put in the last 2 slots of Enforcers?

LOTG +rech

Lady Gray/Shield Breacker damage procs

Achilles -res

If you want more details & my personal thoughts on the pros & cons of each option (some of which might be based on an incorrect understanding of things I've read), then by all means read on.

 

After spending a fair amount of time examining my options, I've got my Thugs mostly slotted how I want them. They're all ED-capped on damage, with varying amounts of ACC/END based on which pet it is & are a mix of Frankensloting & low-count set bonuses. I've got Enforcers set up such that they have their basics covered with 4 slots of set IOs. That leaves me with 2 slots to put procs in, and my essential question is what are the best options for those 2 slots? As I see it there's 4 options for those 2 slots that would likely be better options than just capping their enhanceable combat stats: a LOTG +rech, the Shield Breaker Lethal proc, the Lady Gray NE proc, and the Achilles -res.

 

LOTG is probably the least interesting option for me, simply because my current build (being /time) already has a pretty large amount of +rech. Adding the 7.5% doesn't really accomplish anything significant, but the +def component obviously boosts their Maneuvers' values a smidge. Combined with a relatively minor gain from the +rech, the net effect seems like it MIGHT be useful (at least in theory).

 

AFAIK, Shield Breaker & Lady Gray are basically identical in the numerical sense, though obviously LG has the better damage type. After a bit more reading on procs (specifically I couldn't remember if they were affected by minimum level requirements), I'll probably slot at least the LG proc given its better damage type. But would the other proc be a better choice than these other 2 options?

 

That leaves the Achilles -res proc, which I think COULD be the most impactful overall, but when I was reading about Scrapper builds a few characters ago I'm pretty sure it was said that the Achilles proc had some type of an internal CD. I'm again hazy here, but I think it was something along the lines of it would only proc on one target at a time in AOE powers & additionally had something like a 9.5s lockout before the character could proc it again (though I'm not clear on of that meant it wouldn't proc at all or just that it wouldn't proc on a 2nd target) . I haven't seen this discussed anywhere else, or of any other PPM IOs having similar lockout (specifically, I don't see anything in the PPM guide about such a system being in place), so IDK if it's accurate. I might be misunderstanding this, but it seems like the largest benefit of procs in pets is that each proc can effect multiple pet powers, giving a comparatively large # of procs over a given amount of time. Taken together, if I understand the pet+procs dynamic & it does have some type of inner CD to that effect, it seems like this would somewhat hamper its usefulness in Enforcers. Though i suppose taken another way, having so many powers that can proc it might mean it has almost permanently uptime because of the PPM mechanics...

 

AAAAAnyway, I figured the MM forums may have a better grasp on this subject than I did, so I'm looking forward to what y'all have to say! 

[kelika2]

I went for 3 acc/dmg hamis and 3 end/def/tohit hamis for my enforcers.

 

reminder that achilles heel does not stack with itself.  even from other users(players) or other pets.

 

and the fact that all debuffs and buffs are from BASE (pre enhancement) damage.  so if your pet brawls for 10, and achilles procs it'll hit for 12.  and if you enhance them up to brawl for 20, it'll brawl for 22 with achilles.

 

Also not 100% sure how damage procs work now but i doubt they will be game changing for pets.

For players, you are allowed X procs per minute with no way around it, and if pets are the same, it'll be less impactful

[Seroster01]

Ah, as a secondary question, does anyone know if the top-level Hybrid Control Core will proc from pets? As a /time MM I can perma-hold bosses pretty easily. If they then have a 75% chance for a Psi proc from every pet hit, it seems like that could add up REALLY fast. Obviously won't work great against things w/ the Triangles of Doom, but in normal conditions it seems like it could have a lot of potential.

 

[Seroster01]

2 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I went for 3 acc/dmg hamis and 3 end/def/tohit hamis for my enforcers.

 

reminder that achilles heel does not stack with itself.  even from other users(players) or other pets.

 

and the fact that all debuffs and buffs are from BASE (pre enhancement) damage.  so if your pet brawls for 10, and achilles procs it'll hit for 12.  and if you enhance them up to brawl for 20, it'll brawl for 22 with achilles.

 

Also not 100% sure how damage procs work now but i doubt they will be game changing for pets.

For players, you are allowed X procs per minute with no way around it, and if pets are the same, it'll be less impactful

 

Hrm, I'll have to read up on the -res bit, cause I 100% thought -res debuffs affected total damage taken.  I know +damage works the way you describe, but at least according to Target Examiner -res effects lower their actual resistance, which should have the effect of increasing all damage taken of the applicable type(s). 

 

As far as procs go I think you've misunderstood the mechanics on how they work.  They're called Procs Per Minute now because they changed how they function from a flat percentile chance to occur into a system that is still functionally a percentile chance, but said chance is adjusted up or down based on certain aspects of the power it's slotted in. It's mostly based on recharge #s, but cast time also plays a role. As such, there's no technical cap on procs you can have other than the limit of times a character can fire a given power in a minute. If you drop a random proc into any given power & there's no +recharge involved it can be expected to fire the given amount of PPM (if the power can actually be used that # of times in a minute of course.) But it's still technically a % chance, and so it can occur more or less often based on good/bad RNG. If a character is built to utilize them properly, it's very possible for the IOs to reliably proc more in a given minute than the base PPM (which is 3.5 for almost all the damage procs). Typically this is done by avoiding recharge from enhancements (including the alpha slot) in the power itself & then pushing global recharge from powers, IOs, etc. For an example, if a proc has a PPM of 1 & is slotted into a power w/ a base 30s recharge it would have apprx. 50% chance to trigger each time you cast it, and of course would average out to 1 per minute. BUT if you didn't have any recharge enhancements in it & had enough global recharge that said power's actual recharge was 15s (100% global recharge), the power would still have the same ~50% chance to fire. Given that you can now use the power 4 times per minute, you've functionally doubled your expected # of procs in a given minute.

 

For MM, pet procs can actually have a very large effect, because slotting a proc into a pet power will basically behave as if you'd put that proc into every eligible power that pet can use. As Enforcers have several powers that do -def, putting procs from -def sets will give each of those powers an independent chance to proc & each power will have its own "PPM count", for lack of a better term. So now you've got 2 Enforcers & each has multiple powers that can cause the procs to occur. A bit of peculiarity for pets is that because pets (at least MM pets) are functionally immune to +recharge effects, each power should be expected to proc a # of times equal to the base PPM & this can't really be changed. But 3.5 PPM across 3-4 powers for each Enforcer is relatively significant.

 

For reference, the general info on PPM is taken from this guide:

And the interaction of Procs w/ MM Pets is from here:

 

Perhaps these were outdated by a patch since I first read them, but I certainly didn't see anything in the patch notes that effect.

 

Anyway, thanks for responding!

[Bopper]

41 minutes ago, Seroster01 said:

Perhaps these were outdated by a patch since I first read them, but I certainly didn't see anything in the patch notes that effect.

Nothing has changed...yet. But I know the dev team will eventually look into it (hopefully no time soon).

[StrikerFox]

Slot Enforcers with:

 

Sovereign Right - acc/dam
Superior Mark of Supremacy - dam/end
Shield Breaker proc
Lady Grey proc
Superior Mark of Supremacy - acc/dam/end
Gaussian's proc

 

Above slotting is meant to work with Musculature Core/Radial or Intuition Radial. Swap the Gaussian's proc for the Achilles' proc if you solo often or have no other way apply the debuff.

[Seroster01]

2 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

Slot Enforcers with:

 

Sovereign Right - acc/dam
Superior Mark of Supremacy - dam/end
Shield Breaker proc
Lady Grey proc
Superior Mark of Supremacy - acc/dam/end
Gaussian's proc

 

Above slotting is meant to work with Musculature Core/Radial or Intuition Radial. Swap the Gaussian's proc for the Achilles' proc if you solo often or have no other way apply the debuff.

I'm not in front of my PC right now (though I'm not sure it would matter if I was), but is there any particular reason you used Sovereign Right for the acc/dam?

[StrikerFox]

10 minutes ago, Seroster01 said:

I'm not in front of my PC right now (though I'm not sure it would matter if I was), but is there any particular reason you used Sovereign Right for the acc/dam?

No particular reason. There's no set bonus that comes with slotting the acc/dam IO, any one of them would work (Blood Mandate, Expedient Reinforcement). Preferably a level 50 IO. If influence isn't a problem,  HamiO or Superior Command of the MM would be ideal.

 

[Seroster01]

4 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

No particular reason. There's no set bonus that comes with slotting the acc/dam IO, any one of them would work (Blood Mandate, Expedient Reinforcement). Preferably a level 50 IO. If influence isn't a problem,  HamiO or Superior Command of the MM would be ideal.

 

In a different vein, do you know the answer to my question about the Control Core Hybrid? Seems like it could be pretty strong if it had a chance to proc from every pet attack. Especially from Gang War...

[StrikerFox]

2 hours ago, Seroster01 said:

In a different vein, do you know the answer to my question about the Control Core Hybrid? Seems like it could be pretty strong if it had a chance to proc from every pet attack. Especially from Gang War...

Not really sure. There was a thread talking about which incarnate powers work with pets. It sounded like only Hybrid Support and Assault do. But my memory could be a little hazy and/or I may not have finished reading the whole thread. I don't see the Beta option in the Tequila launcher, I would like to test that.

[M3z]

Here's how I slot enforcers for my 8v8 pvp build:

 

• soulbound allegiance damage
• soulbound allegiance acc/dam/rech
• soulbound allegiance acc/rech
• soulbound allegiance chance for BU
• touch of lady grey chance for neg damage
• shield breaker chance for lethal damage

 

Gets you +dam and +HP set bonuses which is nice

 

Because many of the enforcer's attacks are -def this is usually the best setup for max damage

 

If you don't have access to Achilles proc anywhere in your build might be worth it to slot it instead of shield breaker or touch of lady grey

 

Chance for BU goes off so often it stacks sometimes on enforcers. Also summoning enforcers (even if they are already summoned) triggers the chance for BU on yourself, this can act as a mastermind build up every 24ish seconds.

 

Also many people may not know this but it's best to just completely skip first pet upgrade, all of the attacks in it are complete trash. I don't take it on my builds (for thugs).

Edited December 10, 2019 by M3z

[Seroster01]

1 hour ago, M3z said:

Here's how I slot enforcers for my 8v8 pvp build:

 

• soulbound allegiance damage
• soulbound allegiance acc/dam/rech
• soulbound allegiance acc/rech
• soulbound allegiance chance for BU
• touch of lady grey chance for neg damage
• shield breaker chance for lethal damage

 

Gets you +dam and +HP set bonuses which is nice

 

Because many of the enforcer's attacks are -def this is usually the best setup for max damage

 

If you don't have access to Achilles proc anywhere in your build might be worth it to slot it instead of shield breaker or touch of lady grey

 

Chance for BU goes off so often it stacks sometimes on enforcers. Also summoning enforcers (even if they are already summoned) triggers the chance for BU on yourself, this can act as a mastermind build up every 24ish seconds.

 

Also many people may not know this but it's best to just completely skip first pet upgrade, all of the attacks in it are complete trash. I don't take it on my builds (for thugs).

Hrm, I certainly did not know to skip the first upgrade. Removing those attacks doesn't create gaps in their attack chain? And/or the additional proc chances don't make up for the attack's weaker power?

 

 In a slightly different vein, Bruiser isn't a better spot for the BU proc? Seems to do a significant amount of DPS & I assumed the Enforcers conning lower would make the Bruiser a better spot for it. I think I had other questions from this thread, but I gotta take care of my Nephew so I'll have to come back to it..

Edited December 10, 2019 by Seroster01

[Maxzero]

 

My setup for base damage, set bonus, def buff and procs:

 

Sup Mark of Ascendancy ACC/DAM/END

Sup Mark of Ascendancy DAM

Lotg +Def +5

Lotg +Def/+global REC +5

Shieldbreaker Lethal Proc

Lady Grey Neg proc

 

[Seroster01]

Ah, I remembered the 2nd bit I was thinking about; if I have no damaging attacks coming from my actual character (which I don't), isn't the +dam useless? Last time I tried to look into it I read that +dam set bonuses (really any set bonuses) don't affect pets. Even if I did have some damaging attacks, MM base damage is so low that it doesn't seem like there'd be much point to boosting +dam with set bonuses? 

[Seroster01]

Well I decided to ask a 2nd question here, since its kinda related to this subject (if I can't find an answer & nobody responds I'll just make another...)

 

How do the Interface Incarnate Abilities interact with pets? If Interface works like IO procs as we've been discussing & they have normal effects & the % chance to proc, it seems like MMs would be uniquely suited to get a very large return on investment. MMs whole schtick with their pets amounts to "Death by 1,000 cuts", with 6 henchman each throwing out a constant stream of low-damage attacks. If each of those attacks has a 75% chance to trigger a damage DoT at the normal strength, that seems like it could add a significant amount of damage to an MMs normal output. Which is why I feel skeptical that it works that way...

[BGSacho]

A maxed out interface can be almost up to 10-15% of your total damage. It's important to take the 75% chance to trigger a DoT, since the interface DoT is an "rng DoT" - if you've seen in some skill descriptions, it would say "80% chance for 4 ticks of X damage", the interface DoT is the same way, and that chance is checked for each tick(i.e. the first tick has 75% chance to proc, the second 56.25% - 75%*75% - and so on..). Check out this post(although some of the conclusions I drew there are outdated). If you pause the videos there at any point you'd see how many degenerative interface procs are flying off.

Similarly, the Hybrid Assault incarnate(provided you summon your pets after enabling it) will act like a super-powered purple proc for each attack by your pets, massively boosting their dps.

Edited December 18, 2019 by BGSacho

[Seroster01]

16 hours ago, BGSacho said:

A maxed out interface can be almost up to 10-15% of your total damage. It's important to take the 75% chance to trigger a DoT, since the interface DoT is an "rng DoT" - if you've seen in some skill descriptions, it would say "80% chance for 4 ticks of X damage", the interface DoT is the same way, and that chance is checked for each tick(i.e. the first tick has 75% chance to proc, the second 56.25% - 75%*75% - and so on..). Check out this post(although some of the conclusions I drew there are outdated). If you pause the videos there at any point you'd see how many degenerative interface procs are flying off.

Similarly, the Hybrid Assault incarnate(provided you summon your pets after enabling it) will act like a super-powered purple proc for each attack by your pets, massively boosting their dps.

Thanks for the response. Do you think Hybrid Assault is worth it, given how frequently pets have to be re-summoned? Or should I just stick to Support Hybrid? I could certainly use the end discount.

[BGSacho]

12 hours ago, Seroster01 said:

Thanks for the response. Do you think Hybrid Assault is worth it, given how frequently pets have to be re-summoned? Or should I just stick to Support Hybrid? I could certainly use the end discount.

Depends what you mean. First, let's recap the mechanics:

1. You need to summon pets while you have Hybrid Assault on for them to benefit, but
2. If a pet has benefitted from Hybrid Assault before, it does not need to be resummoned the next time you use it

You can think of it as if the pet gets a hidden "flag" - "can benefit from HA" if it is summoned while hybrid assault is on, and doesn't lose that flag until it dies. Then, whenever you use hybrid assault, the pets that have that "flag" will benefit from it.

Here are some considerations on whether to use HA:

First, when would you actually want to use HA? It's a toggle, and a bit of a hassle to use, so you only really want it if you are doing well in most content but struggle to push your DPS past a certain breakpoint in very specific cases(e.g. soloing AVs). 

If all your pets are dying all the time, then it's just much better to focus on your survivability than trying to micromanage HA.

If some of your pets die fairly regularly(e.g. T1s), it can be a toss-up. If your pets are dying in those high-intensity situations you want HA for, and another hybrid might keep them alive, then I wouldn't use HA. If the pets would die regardless of the Hybrid pick(e.g. ridicilous burst + streakbreaker), then you might as well take HA to boost the dps of the rest of your pets.

An extra pet summon(Hell on Earth, Gang War, Soul Extraction, Dark Servant) is a strong sway towards HA, since it means more procs.

I am not actually sure if HA works on pseudopets like Tornado/Lightning Storm.
 

[Seroster01]

3 hours ago, BGSacho said:

Depends what you mean. First, let's recap the mechanics:

1. You need to summon pets while you have Hybrid Assault on for them to benefit, but
2. If a pet has benefitted from Hybrid Assault before, it does not need to be resummoned the next time you use it

You can think of it as if the pet gets a hidden "flag" - "can benefit from HA" if it is summoned while hybrid assault is on, and doesn't lose that flag until it dies. Then, whenever you use hybrid assault, the pets that have that "flag" will benefit from it.

Here are some considerations on whether to use HA:

First, when would you actually want to use HA? It's a toggle, and a bit of a hassle to use, so you only really want it if you are doing well in most content but struggle to push your DPS past a certain breakpoint in very specific cases(e.g. soloing AVs). 

If all your pets are dying all the time, then it's just much better to focus on your survivability than trying to micromanage HA.

If some of your pets die fairly regularly(e.g. T1s), it can be a toss-up. If your pets are dying in those high-intensity situations you want HA for, and another hybrid might keep them alive, then I wouldn't use HA. If the pets would die regardless of the Hybrid pick(e.g. ridicilous burst + streakbreaker), then you might as well take HA to boost the dps of the rest of your pets.

An extra pet summon(Hell on Earth, Gang War, Soul Extraction, Dark Servant) is a strong sway towards HA, since it means more procs.

I am not actually sure if HA works on pseudopets like Tornado/Lightning Storm.
 

What about Lore pets?

[Seroster01]

On 12/18/2019 at 4:18 AM, BGSacho said:

A maxed out interface can be almost up to 10-15% of your total damage. It's important to take the 75% chance to trigger a DoT, since the interface DoT is an "rng DoT" - if you've seen in some skill descriptions, it would say "80% chance for 4 ticks of X damage", the interface DoT is the same way, and that chance is checked for each tick(i.e. the first tick has 75% chance to proc, the second 56.25% - 75%*75% - and so on..). Check out this post(although some of the conclusions I drew there are outdated). If you pause the videos there at any point you'd see how many degenerative interface procs are flying off.

Similarly, the Hybrid Assault incarnate(provided you summon your pets after enabling it) will act like a super-powered purple proc for each attack by your pets, massively boosting their dps.

I had another question, though this one may be a bit broader in scope: which Interface do you pick? Obviously we want one of the ones with a dmg proc, and of the ones with such a proc the 2 that seem most useful are Degenerative & Reactive. From what I've read, Degenerative seems to be considered the most powerful effect in terms of general kill speed, or at least the most powerful vs EB+ enemies. OFC because of that it seems to be the most common option & thus the HP debuff part of it frequently goes to waste. From what I've read, Toxic damage is also the most resisted damage type, so it might lose some points for that. Degenerative giving -res seems like it could be pretty powerful just because of how impactful res debuffs are, but I haven't heard much praise for that one so I'm not sure how useful it is.

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear any input from you on this choice (or anyone else who wants to contribute obviously).

[StrikerFox]

On 12/25/2019 at 12:24 AM, Seroster01 said:

I had another question, though this one may be a bit broader in scope: which Interface do you pick? Obviously we want one of the ones with a dmg proc, and of the ones with such a proc the 2 that seem most useful are Degenerative & Reactive. From what I've read, Degenerative seems to be considered the most powerful effect in terms of general kill speed, or at least the most powerful vs EB+ enemies. OFC because of that it seems to be the most common option & thus the HP debuff part of it frequently goes to waste. From what I've read, Toxic damage is also the most resisted damage type, so it might lose some points for that. Degenerative giving -res seems like it could be pretty powerful just because of how impactful res debuffs are, but I haven't heard much praise for that one so I'm not sure how useful it is.

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear any input from you on this choice (or anyone else who wants to contribute obviously).

In most cases, Degenerative Radial is ideal for MM with pets. I would choose Reactive Radial with any primary/secondary that can apply a high -regen debuff outside of Interface. The Assault Bot can stack a -1000% regen debuff; Poison Trap applies a -1000% regen debuff as well. Lingering Radiation, Heat Exhaustion, Howling Twilight and Emp Arrow applies -500%.

[Seroster01]

Thanks for responding! The MM that prompted all of this is /Time, which certainly has some -regen, but I don't think it's on the magnitude of those others. Or at least  the individual powers aren't that strong. Theres 2 of them & they last long enough that if I spam them on a beefy target they'd end up with multiple stacks of each... but IDK how stacking rules work for stuff like that. Do you think it's worth keeping Degenerative on a Thugs/Time character? 

[StrikerFox]

I don't have an answer to your question. I haven't done any testing with Degenerative vs Reactive with -regen debuffs involved. And I want to make it clear that I could be totally wrong thinking Reactive may be better in this situation. 

 

Degenerative lowers max HP of it's target. The -regen is a byproduct since regen is based off of max hp. A lower max HP, the target regenerates for a smaller amount per second. It's probably the main reason Degenerative has better pylon times. If -regen could be applied by other means, I believe Reactive would pull ahead. 

 

I don't see the Pineapple server on Tequila anymore. I love testing stuff like this.

[Seroster01]

48 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

I don't have an answer to your question. I haven't done any testing with Degenerative vs Reactive with -regen debuffs involved. And I want to make it clear that I could be totally wrong thinking Reactive may be better in this situation. 

 

Degenerative lowers max HP of it's target. The -regen is a byproduct since regen is based off of max hp. A lower max HP, the target regenerates for a smaller amount per second. It's probably the main reason Degenerative has better pylon times. If -regen could be applied by other means, I believe Reactive would pull ahead. 

 

I don't see the Pineapple server on Tequila anymore. I love testing stuff like this.

 

Well from what I can see in the Enemy Scanner, it seems like I have enough debuff to bottom out an AV's regen. That would eliminate the regeneration from being an issue, so I guess it'd come down to whether 14% less HP (or -4000 HP on AVs & such) w/ Toxic damage is worth more than -10% resistance +Fire damage. I'd imagine the HP debuff is more valuable vs the AV+ group & the -res is more useful for Bosses & under, but neither of the options are likely to have a large impact on normal mobs simply because Bosses & under die quick enough to for either to really affect it. I suppose either one you pick is going to run into the same general issue of losing usefulness when other party members have the same ability.

[StrikerFox]

Found out the Beta is there, just need to add a new link to Tequila. Tested out Reactive with -regen debuff applied to the pylon (Howling Twilight/Twilight Grasp). It did pull ahead slightly but significantly less to what I thought. 

Ninja Degenerative Radial 432dps: https://youtu.be/vguzyASgiOA

Ninja Reactive Radial 450dps: https://youtu.be/ojnfHyKwP9U

Merc Degenerative Radial 301dps: https://youtu.be/ZRLl18C7LpI

Merc Reactive Radial 310dps: https://youtu.be/0QcMRDmk7lQ