Can we get the Mastermind Primary attacks Endurance cost reduced ?

[plainguy]

Currently any mastermind primary attack power is double the endurance any other Arch Type of the same power. 

 

Can we get endurance cost for these attack scaled down to normal or 2 points at least above the rest. 

 

It really reads across as if you are getting punished for picking up an attack power.  

If the thought process is low endurance means DPS increase because the mastermind can attack while controlling pets and you want one or the other. 

Then can we code the system to see if the active build has 3 pets slotted ? If not your endurance decreases ?

 

Nutshell anything that can be done to reduce endurance cost. 

I am just speculating as to why the high endurance.

[Galaxy Brain]

My guess is to limit the damage output of MMs personally given they can do amazing DPS with the pets for technically 0 cost, while simultaneously using support powers.

 

That said, it puts the attacks in a weird, weird spot. They do little damage cus of AT mods, cant really be used to make a chain, and as mentioned cost a lot. This makes attacks outside of the demon whips for the -Res sorta not worth using. I'd argue for them to have much longer recharges instead and beef up the damage and secondary effects. Using the few attacks an MM has should at least have sudden impact in a battle since they cannot be relied on for DPS.

 

 

[Super Homer]

MM end cost is not double, its 25% higher than other ATs, counter balance for the fact that the pets do most the damage at no end-cost to the MM itself.

[plainguy]

13 minutes ago, unknown said:

MM end cost is not double, its 25% higher than other ATs, counter balance for the fact that the pets do most the damage at no end-cost to the MM itself.

Just going by mids..

Mastermind empty clips 18.98

Blaster empty clips 10.19

 

Just a quick example. 

 

Maybe the endurance recovery is less for masterminds ? 

 

Let me go about this another route..

Coming from experience of playing Many Masterminds petless and full set.

Something is wrong because a mastermind without pets looses A LOT of endurance or their recovery rate is much less then other Arch Types.  

When I say wrong I mean 5 slotting Stamina isn't enough as you level up with SO isn't enough. 

You cannot play a petless mastermind because the endurance drain is so massive. 

 

I can only see it coming from the attacks.

Edited December 23, 2019 by plainguy

[Super Homer]

MM Empty Clips is a very different power from the Blaster version, but compare equal powers like Burst (6.5 end vs 5.2 end) and the ratio will be 25% higher end cost.

12 minutes ago, plainguy said:

You cannot play a petless mastermind because the endurance drain is so massive. 

 

Wait...  you want the game balanced around niche experimental concept builds like a petless MM?

Edited December 23, 2019 by unknown

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, unknown said:

MM Empty Clips is a very different power from the Blaster version, but compare equal powers like Burst (6.5 end vs 5.2 end) and the ratio will be 25% higher end cost.

 

Wait...  you want the game balanced around niche experimental concept builds like a petless MM?

No I want to figure out why masterminds endurance is an issue if the recharge is the same across arch types and I am assuming the Pool is the same size. 

 

If we both have the same amount of pool and we recharge the same then why is a petless mastermind per say  having issues compared to another full petted mastermind ?..

 

The attack powers are the same with and without pets.. So the endurance is the same. 

So IF picked up all 3 attacks and 3 pets and 2 upgrades..  I should have enough endurance as another arch type but I don't

 

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, unknown said:

MM Empty Clips is a very different power from the Blaster version, but compare equal powers like Burst (6.5 end vs 5.2 end) and the ratio will be 25% higher end cost.

Right, it does less damage (by scale, not even accounting for the lower AT modifier) in the same cone size with a worse secondary effect (KB) on a lower recharge (8 sec vs 10 sec) and a broken endurance cost.

 

At the recharge and cone size it should do scale 0.91 (see Buckshot, Fistful of Arrows), not 0.79; it should also cost 10.66 endurance at the higher Mastermind penalty rate instead of 18.98. The cost for it is as if it was a radial targeted AoE instead of a cone with double the recharge (see M30 Grenade, Photon Grenade), but the damage and recharge is off for that. You can't even try to give it the "well, it's a soft control power, that's why it costs so much" (like Torrent in Dark Blast) because the knockback has a 10% chance. 

 

So the problem is that MM Empty Clips is bugged with an endurance cost that is 80% higher than it should be and lower damage that it should have.

 

As for MMs running out of endurance... meh. Prior to inherent Stamina, MMs were the one AT that I never felt like I had to work Stamina in at level 20 for. Now you don't even have to resummon pets every time you zone, and the upgrades are AoEs. Darn kids need to get off my lawn. 😛

Edited December 23, 2019 by siolfir

[plainguy]

19 hours ago, siolfir said:

Right, it does less damage (by scale, not even accounting for the lower AT modifier) in the same cone size with a worse secondary effect (KB) on a lower recharge (8 sec vs 10 sec) and a broken endurance cost.

 

At the recharge and cone size it should do scale 0.91 (see Buckshot, Fistful of Arrows), not 0.79; it should also cost 10.66 endurance at the higher Mastermind penalty rate instead of 18.98. The cost for it is as if it was a radial targeted AoE instead of a cone with double the recharge (see M30 Grenade, Photon Grenade), but the damage and recharge is off for that. You can't even try to give it the "well, it's a soft control power, that's why it costs so much" (like Torrent in Dark Blast) because the knockback has a 10% chance. 

 

So the problem is that MM Empty Clips is bugged with an endurance cost that is 80% higher than it should be and lower damage that it should have.

 

As for MMs running out of endurance... meh. Prior to inherent Stamina, MMs were the one AT that I never felt like I had to work Stamina in at level 20 for. Now you don't even have to resummon pets every time you zone, and the upgrades are AoEs. Darn kids need to get off my lawn. 😛

Thank you for putting some real information behind my layman observations.

[boggo2300]

not one of my MM has ever had end issues, even my Thugs one

[Trickshooter]

On 12/23/2019 at 12:19 PM, plainguy said:

Just going by mids..

Mastermind empty clips 18.98

Blaster empty clips 10.19

 

Just a quick example.

Mastermind's Empty Clips is definitely an outlier, likely in need of review, but for the most part Mastermind endurance costs are only 25% higher. And even that is only a technically true statement.

 

There is a formula for endurance cost that is (mostly) based on the damage scale caused by a power. Mastermind Primary and Secondary powerset endurance costs typically follow this formula with no penalty. For the most part, they are paying the calculated endurance cost based on the formula. However, every other AT's Primary and Secondary powerset endurance costs are calculated at only 80% of the normal value, giving them a 20% discount on the base cost.* So really, Masterminds have normal endurance costs; everyone else just pays less!

 

*This is not something you would see in-game anywhere, as base endurance cost is not something calculated dynamically. It is a set value put in by whichever powers designer built the associated power. Also, this does not extend to power pools and epic pools.

[plainguy]

On 12/24/2019 at 5:47 PM, boggo2300 said:

not one of my MM has ever had end issues, even my Thugs one

Go to test server.. Create a level 25 mastermind. Pick no pets and just attacks. Run a mission on standard setting and watch your endurance crash. 

I get the whole but wait your petless. 

Summoning pets is a big endurance drain. Not something you can always do in the middle of a fight.  

But if you are not summoning pets between your primary and secondaries you should have a decent amount of endurance to run a mission. 

The reality is you don't. 

 

Having many different toons leveled to 50. I can tell you I never had any sort of total endurance crash on any arch type excluding heavy toggled based ones maybe.. EG Darkest Night, Hurricane type powers.

 

EG Thug Traps to level 25 and see how it rolls. Again trust me it won't. You don't have enough blue inspirations in your tray to run a mission on base setting. 

Even slotting up endurance to 3 or 4 slots will give you issues.

 

Run a DP traps to 25 and see the difference.. 

I have .. 

 

Its drastically noticeable. 

Masterminds are paying more for primary and secondaries.  

 

End result they are pretty much pigeonholed you into just controlling your pets and NOT attacking.. 

At the end of the day Tankermind is the most effective for endurance reasons. 

 

As an example Seeker Drones from Traps..  Nice power decent.. But its good for maybe taking the alpha but once your set up you really don't need it. I barely use it. TIme Bomb ? Hardly anyone uses that.

End result they become picked powers that are rarely used, unless for set bonuses. 

 

That is what I think of some of the builds I see for masterminds.. I see many players THINKING that its a great idea to pick the attack powers, but quickly discover they really can't use them as expected leveling up because it drains endurance they need for secondary powers. 

 

Overall I believe the whole mastermind set needs to be reworked. But that a different thread.

 

[MetaVileTerror]

And really, in most cases (go away Force Fields, no one is ever talking about you in this context), making constant use of your Mastermind Secondary Powers will probably yield far better results than adding one more "voice" to the cacophony of attacks your Henchpets are already pumping out.  The Prestige Attacks are good enough filler for a Mastermind if someone is really -that- bored that they feel compelled to attack personally.

[Leogunner]

30 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Go to test server.. Create a level 25 mastermind. Pick no pets and just attacks. Run a mission on standard setting and watch your endurance crash. 

I get the whole but wait your petless. 

Summoning pets is a big endurance drain. Not something you can always do in the middle of a fight.  

But if you are not summoning pets between your primary and secondaries you should have a decent amount of endurance to run a mission. 

The reality is you don't. 

 

Having many different toons leveled to 50. I can tell you I never had any sort of total endurance crash on any arch type excluding heavy toggled based ones maybe.. EG Darkest Night, Hurricane type powers.

 

EG Thug Traps to level 25 and see how it rolls. Again trust me it won't. You don't have enough blue inspirations in your tray to run a mission on base setting. 

Even slotting up endurance to 3 or 4 slots will give you issues.

 

Run a DP traps to 25 and see the difference.. 

I have .. 

 

Its drastically noticeable. 

Masterminds are paying more for primary and secondaries.  

 

End result they are pretty much pigeonholed you into just controlling your pets and NOT attacking.. 

At the end of the day Tankermind is the most effective for endurance reasons. 

 

As an example Seeker Drones from Traps..  Nice power decent.. But its good for maybe taking the alpha but once your set up you really don't need it. I barely use it. TIme Bomb ? Hardly anyone uses that.

End result they become picked powers that are rarely used, unless for set bonuses. 

 

That is what I think of some of the builds I see for masterminds.. I see many players THINKING that its a great idea to pick the attack powers, but quickly discover they really can't use them as expected leveling up because it drains endurance they need for secondary powers. 

 

Overall I believe the whole mastermind set needs to be reworked. But that a different thread.

 

Hi.  I think it's already been pinpointed that your problem isn't with MM endurance on their attacks.  Your problem is with Thugs: Dual Wield being messed up.  Looking at all the other attacks compared to their counterparts on Defender blasts, the costs aren't that bad (around 25% or less) and this is likely because MM not only gets pets and support, but also pet commands which cost no endurance or have recharge.

 

If you have endurance problems with a petless MM because the attacks are slightly more costly, sprinkle in some pool attacks.  They cost the same across all ATs.

[boggo2300]

3 hours ago, plainguy said:

Go to test server.. Create a level 25 mastermind. Pick no pets and just attacks. Run a mission on standard setting and watch your endurance crash. 

I get the whole but wait your petless. 

Summoning pets is a big endurance drain. Not something you can always do in the middle of a fight.  

But if you are not summoning pets between your primary and secondaries you should have a decent amount of endurance to run a mission. 

The reality is you don't. 

 

Having many different toons leveled to 50. I can tell you I never had any sort of total endurance crash on any arch type excluding heavy toggled based ones maybe.. EG Darkest Night, Hurricane type powers.

 

EG Thug Traps to level 25 and see how it rolls. Again trust me it won't. You don't have enough blue inspirations in your tray to run a mission on base setting. 

Even slotting up endurance to 3 or 4 slots will give you issues.

 

Run a DP traps to 25 and see the difference.. 

I have .. 

 

Its drastically noticeable. 

Masterminds are paying more for primary and secondaries.  

 

End result they are pretty much pigeonholed you into just controlling your pets and NOT attacking.. 

At the end of the day Tankermind is the most effective for endurance reasons. 

 

As an example Seeker Drones from Traps..  Nice power decent.. But its good for maybe taking the alpha but once your set up you really don't need it. I barely use it. TIme Bomb ? Hardly anyone uses that.

End result they become picked powers that are rarely used, unless for set bonuses. 

 

That is what I think of some of the builds I see for masterminds.. I see many players THINKING that its a great idea to pick the attack powers, but quickly discover they really can't use them as expected leveling up because it drains endurance they need for secondary powers. 

 

Overall I believe the whole mastermind set needs to be reworked. But that a different thread.

 

If I don't want pets, I don't pick a MM

 

thats like saying roll a Brute and don't select any attacks, not my thing, I see no point in it

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

If I don't want pets, I don't pick a MM

 

thats like saying roll a Brute and don't select any attacks, not my thing, I see no point in it

I think the suggestion was to roll a petless MM on beta (where you don't have to actually play it to level it) for the sake of testing how often you run out of endurance attacking all the time as a MM. Not that you should run a petless MM.

 

I could be misreading, though I thought it was presented as a "try it and see for yourself" test, and that they wanted to attack along with their pets.

 

As for the whole point of this thread - as I implied earlier, I didn't have endurance issues with my MM because I could make it through a mission just fine, often without activating any non-toggle powers after my pets were summoned and upgraded, but I would occasionally throw attacks on my Demon Summoner because the whip was just cool.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

I think the suggestion was to roll a petless MM on beta (where you don't have to actually play it to level it) for the sake of testing how often you run out of endurance attacking all the time as a MM. Not that you should run a petless MM.

 

I could be misreading, though I thought it was presented as a "try it and see for yourself" test, and that they wanted to attack along with their pets.

 

As for the whole point of this thread - as I implied earlier, I didn't have endurance issues with my MM because I could make it through a mission just fine, often without activating any non-toggle powers after my pets were summoned and upgraded, but I would occasionally throw attacks on my Demon Summoner because the whip was just cool.

Oh I got what the suggestion was, however trying to balance end costs for a MM for an edge case purposely nerfed build is silly, and frankly hurts YOUR argument more than helps it.

 

I'm fine with someone looking at MM attack end costs, however I'd be surprised if they were lowered, it's not what a MM is for after all

[plainguy]

3 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

If I don't want pets, I don't pick a MM

 

thats like saying roll a Brute and don't select any attacks, not my thing, I see no point in it

 

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

I think the suggestion was to roll a petless MM on beta (where you don't have to actually play it to level it) for the sake of testing how often you run out of endurance attacking all the time as a MM. Not that you should run a petless MM.

 

I could be misreading, though I thought it was presented as a "try it and see for yourself" test, and that they wanted to attack along with their pets.

 

As for the whole point of this thread - as I implied earlier, I didn't have endurance issues with my MM because I could make it through a mission just fine, often without activating any non-toggle powers after my pets were summoned and upgraded, but I would occasionally throw attacks on my Demon Summoner because the whip was just cool.

 

2 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Oh I got what the suggestion was, however trying to balance end costs for a MM for an edge case purposely nerfed build is silly, and frankly hurts YOUR argument more than helps it.

 

I'm fine with someone looking at MM attack end costs, however I'd be surprised if they were lowered, it's not what a MM is for after all

 

As was clarified. 

 

As any arch type you do NOT have to pick all your attacks. 

Again for example not many players pick T9 powers that cause endurance crashes. Again was an understandable thing when COH came out but as the game evolved the Devs realized this was a bit antiquated. But again I get the whole comic book experience here.. The hero uses all his power to protect the team and saves the day or sacrifices himself to save the team.  Again I get the concept here.

 

So again with masterminds the only real option you have is NOT to pick attack powers. 

Not picking the pets or not Picking the Tier 1 pets for example that are 2 levels lower and picking up a 2nd attack to use consistently is a fools errand. 

Again I have I think. about 5 or 6 petless or semi petless masterinds. But these are all power leveled and require incarnates to help with the endurance issues.  I tried to level one and at level 30 I think I gave up.  Again 5 slotted with SO's and IOs it became impossible with endurance. 

 

Someone who is unsuspecting and doesn't understand will quickly realize that using their attacks along with the pets puts you in a bad position because the endurance drain is that sever over the course of regular game play.

Eventually the player should realize I need to cut down on these attacks because I don't have that much endurance to use my secondaries. 

Eventually the player will realize I need to respec out of this attack and pick up something else because the DPS vs endurance isn't helpful to my build.

 

To me the attacks were just added because they simply had nothing else to put in.  But they wanted to punish you as well for using the attack. Basically Every mastermind attack is like a endurance crashing mini T9 depending on the attack. Some being more sever then others. 

 

So as low as the Tier one pets might be when running 4/8 ( which is now 6 levels lower ) it still better endurance wise then getting an extra attack overall. 

The tier one for me are nothing more then extra hit points for when I provoke. I have had times where I provoked and got all but my Tier 3 pet wiped out ( half life ) but I survived.  Funny has heck, but still had to resummon pets which pretty much put me below half endurance.  If I happen to be using some attacks I might not even be able to upgrade my pets because my endurance is so low. 

No upgrades = less dps = less survivability because mobs are still alive to fight back.

 

Again understanding this from regular game play.

When my Assault bot goes down the first upgrade I use is the 2nd upgrade which gives him swarm missiles. Because more than not after a resummon the first attack from a resummoned Assault Bot with a 2nd upgrade only is Swam Missile.  I do this because if its that bad of a fight I want that swarm missile to get stuff away from me and give me some breathing room. But I also learned I ran out of endurance several times after doing the first upgrade that I had to wait for the 2nd upgrade. Or again a really bad moment where they instantly died on resummon and my upgrades and even pets where still on recharge.

 

So Thus the 2nd upgrade first on a resummon.

 

I would also like to add that the Devs here themselves have even said that they looked at code and wondered what the heck the original paid devs where trying to do because none of it made any sense. I do Cyber Security but if I told you I knew everything and I was a cyber ninja I would be lying to you.  Prior to that I did computer forensics and testified in court on many many many criminal cases as a forensic expert.  But again if I told you I was some forensic ninja I would be lying. There are people much more smarter than me.  So don't hold the original devs as knowing everything code wise. 

 

Again like any arch type I should be able to pick any powers OR NOT pick any powers from a set and be able to run with it. 

Again game mechanics require a Sentinel to pick up the two first attack powers to be able to use the Special Sentinel ability. But I have seen many builds that work great without having both attack powers. 

 

Currently now with all the Masterminds ( full and petless), Sentinels, Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders, Controllers I have at 50. Masterminds are the most pigeonholed that require to follow a certain path or be doomed. If everything is equal then the only thing I can see wrong is the endurance they pay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by plainguy