Illusion powerset for Dominators please!!

[biostem]

33 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

To paraphrase Tony Stark; If you're nothing without Phantom Army then you shouldn't have it.

Do you mean like disintegrate for beam rifle, granite for stone armor, or several other powerset that have key defining powers?  Illusion Control trades away key powers, like a ST and Cone/AoE immob, (which setup containment), for a finicky ST direct attack and PA.  Would you take bio armor and skip adaptation, or skip the combo finishers in street justice?  Illusion Control was before those sort of power interactions were implemented, so it instead had other powers removed or gutted, so as to get PA included in the set...

[Alchemystic]

19 minutes ago, biostem said:

Do you mean like disintegrate for beam rifle, granite for stone armor, or several other powerset that have key defining powers?  Illusion Control trades away key powers, like a ST and Cone/AoE immob, (which setup containment), for a finicky ST direct attack and PA.  Would you take bio armor and skip adaptation, or skip the combo finishers in street justice?  Illusion Control was before those sort of power interactions were implemented, so it instead had other powers removed or gutted, so as to get PA included in the set...

Beam Rifle, Bio Armor and Street Justice are examples of the combo mechanic I was talking about, where you are rewarded for picking multiple powers that effect/compliment one another. The point I'm making is that Phantom Army doesn't co-ordinate with the rest of the powerset, it makes them redundant, you could happily make an Illusion Controller with just Spectral Wounds, Phantom Army and Phantasm and just go pure damage, and that's the problem.

 

As for Granite? the reason its so defining is because it deactivates other powers, you are literally forced to rely on it, and believe me there are serval threads out there proposing that it gets reworked so other powers aren't redundant.

 

But this isn't really the purpose of this thread, we're here to discuss ideas of how to make Illusion Control work for Dominators, not debate the conflict in development choices, so lets shed the passive aggression and move on. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tyrannical

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

But this isn't really the purpose of this thread, we're here to discuss ideas of how to make Illusion Control work for Dominators, not debate over past and present development choices, so lets shed the passive aggression and move on. 

A suggestion doesn't usually work if you yourself commit the act you're asking others to "shed".  Those other sets don't "reward" you for taking their respective key powers - they penalize you for NOT doing so, and many of their other powers underperform without them.  The point is, PA is a defining power in illusion control.  It should not be discarded if and when said set were to be ported over to Dominators.  Reworked?  Sure, but not removed.

[Alchemystic]

53 minutes ago, biostem said:

A suggestion doesn't usually work if you yourself commit the act you're asking others to "shed".  Those other sets don't "reward" you for taking their respective key powers - they penalize you for NOT doing so, and many of their other powers underperform without them.  The point is, PA is a defining power in illusion control.  It should not be discarded if and when said set were to be ported over to Dominators.  Reworked?  Sure, but not removed.

 

Defining doesn't exactly mean good.

 

The facilities at my local pub are defined by their complete lack of maintenance, but that doesn't mean I like it or want to use them. 😜

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Lusid]

100% agreed that illusion control should be given to doms as well. Exactly as is, all abilities unchanged. Yes, domination only benefits few abilities, but that would be something any illusion dom would accept by making the character. Just having PA tank for you so you can go crazy with assault attacks would be fantastic. Remember, Phantom army damage is all illusory. The enemy will heal all of it back. I am pretty sure the heal is not tied to enhanced damage, so with any +damage it's increase is permanent damage. In that regard, PA would increase damage. But dominator is about doing damage. There are power sets on certain AT's that out damage others as it is, and the loss of control for the gain of damage is a trade off. Not one i'd say would be overpowered. Also remember all PA attacks are single target (something i'd suggest a small change to, but that's for another topic) so while they'd do well against 1-3 targets, it wouldn't be anything game breaking. I'd say give them the option and see how it goes. If it's too strong, adjust the dom version. Other set combinations that were previously thought to be too strong showed up like /kin on a MM, and it turned out to not be anywhere near as crazy as it sounds. Small adjustments could certainly fix any issues. Also /illusion assault would be a nice concept to go with it.

[First Player]

Been waiting on it since doms were introduced.

[oedipus_tex]

Considering they just announced a new change for Illusion Control on the test servers (customizable Phantom Armies that look like clones of you--very cool) I am hopeful that with eyes on Illusion Control we could get it.

[RabbitUp]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:34 PM, Tyrannical said:

Phantom army *needs* to be removed on Dominators. Its unfortunate but that's how it is.

 

The fact is that with Phantom Army combined with Dominator assault powersets just results in an absurd amount of damage output, especially combined with Phantasm too, there is simply too much attack power. Removing PA reduces that damage output and provides room for more mez, which is what this powerset needs in order to fuel Domination, which should be the Dominators means of being powerful.

 

Spectral Wounds I will admit isn't necessary, as that too means you're stacking damage ontop of Assault powersets. It could be exchanged for a AoE debuff, perhaps something similar to 'Smoke' that reduces sight... I think that fits well for an Illusion theme.

Phantom Army damage is good when you have access to -res, which doms don't.

 

From what I've seen from dps lists, Dark is the highest damage control set thanks to Haunt, and Doms get it unchanged.

[Steampunkette]

13 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

To paraphrase Tony Stark; If you're nothing without Phantom Army then you shouldn't have it. 😉

I'd like to pull this quote out and say: Illusion without Phantom Army and with "Dream" isn't nothing without Phantom Army.

 

It's just not Illusion. It's more like Dream Control or something similar. Which could be it's own cool thing...

 

So the Tony Stark Quote doesn't apply to this situation.

 

Honestly, though, at this point? Go for it. Make Illusion open to Dominators. If they wanna go that route, let 'em. It'll make the game either harder for them (Before Perma PA) or easier (After Perma PA)

[golstat2003]

As already stated there are ways to get Phantom Army to be ported to Dominators. Those suggestions are viable and in this thread. Others agree. Not going to rehash it again. Reread the thread. Most are not arguing that it doesn’t need to change, as has been stated by multiple people more than once.

 

The argument is against it being left completely out of the set when Illusions is ported. Again for the people in the back, Most are not arguing to keep it as is. The argument is about it being taken out completely when ported to Dominators. Clear now? Good.

 

There are set defining powers in a power set all across this game. Illusions is called that because . . . It throws out Illusions as it’s main schtick. Take out the Main set of illusions then why on earth would you called it that when ported to Doms? Call it something else cause at that point it isn’t Illusions.

Edited January 5, 2020 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Considering they just announced a new change for Illusion Control on the test servers (customizable Phantom Armies that look like clones of you--very cool) I am hopeful that with eyes on Illusion Control we could get it.

Sounds like the devs see PA as key to Illusions huh? LMAO!

[Alchemystic]

My issue is keeping PA 100% as is, so let me just clear that up. I'm not saying PA is a bad power, I'm saying it just isn't good for Doms... in its current state.

 

if PA is gonna work it needs to be changed to best suit dominators, perhaps by changing what powers they have access to and how they behave, but the fact remains that the reason Doms dont already have Illusion is entirely because of PA.

 

- high damage

- little mez

- invincible bodyguards

 

Doms would be affected a little too much from this than their Controller cousins, so one or two of these features need to be reviewed.

 

Though, it would be much harder to change the effects of PA (Pets are always hard to change because of the messy code), so I feel that it would be far more likely for it to be removed and be replaced with other more Dominator friendly powers, which is why I even bothered to suggest it in the first place.

 

There needs to be perspective, so even if I'm in the minority here then that's at least some variety of opinons and ideas, which is key to any kind of development. Being dismissive and snide doesn't validate either side of a debate, and if other ideas provoke hostility then you might need to remove yourself from the discussion ☺️

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Alchemystic]

3 hours ago, RabbitUp said:

Phantom Army damage is good when you have access to -res, which doms don't.

 

From what I've seen from dps lists, Dark is the highest damage control set thanks to Haunt, and Doms get it unchanged.

Mace Mastery gives two good means of -res; the blast and the pet.

 

And Dark has pretty high damage, but that's mostly because its a two pet set just like PA, but their damage is permanent instead of illusory.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Steampunkette]

I'll be honest... at this point I really want an Ill/Nrg dominator so I can finally use a dominator where /nrg -fits- their powers rather than being a mishmash.

 

An army of self-cloning energy blasters seems awesome to me!

 

I'd avoid taking most of my primary powers, never use the Control Effects, pretend I don't have Domination, and just fight alongside my duplicate selves when I'm not invisible. ('Cause I'd take the invisibility) Play an Assaulter with 3-5 Pets.

[Alchemystic]

16 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I'll be honest... at this point I really want an Ill/Nrg dominator so I can finally use a dominator where /nrg -fits- their powers rather than being a mishmash.

 

An army of self-cloning energy blasters seems awesome to me!

 

I'd avoid taking most of my primary powers, never use the Control Effects, pretend I don't have Domination, and just fight alongside my duplicate selves when I'm not invisible. ('Cause I'd take the invisibility) Play an Assaulter with 3-5 Pets.

I always thought Energy was an odd fit, was it supposed to pair up with Gravity or something?

 

At least now we have more options (and hopefully more in the future), but I'm hoping for more control sets too... with the exception of Masterminds, control archetypes really got the short straw with development!

[Leogunner]

15 hours ago, biostem said:

Do you mean like disintegrate for beam rifle, granite for stone armor, or several other powerset that have key defining powers?  Illusion Control trades away key powers, like a ST and Cone/AoE immob, (which setup containment), for a finicky ST direct attack and PA.  Would you take bio armor and skip adaptation, or skip the combo finishers in street justice?  Illusion Control was before those sort of power interactions were implemented, so it instead had other powers removed or gutted, so as to get PA included in the set...

Agreed. Phantom Army is the "crown jewel" of the set, one might say.

 

I've never played Illusion but doesn't part of PA's damage heal back over time?  Why not play with the ratio of damage-to-heal back so that you have to kind of act fast as a Dom to capitalize on their damage (you know, by killing faster)?

 

Thinking about it, maybe the set shouldn't have good control (I think it already doesn't) to focus on offense but it exchanges the strong hard control for aggro management.  I could see a strong ST damage set might couple well with Illusion but I'm just guessing.

[Leogunner]

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Considering they just announced a new change for Illusion Control on the test servers (customizable Phantom Armies that look like clones of you--very cool) I am hopeful that with eyes on Illusion Control we could get it.

That would be fun.  I'd probably make a Zatanna character who makes clones of herself and throws birds and swarms of bees at you.  Teleporting in your face sounds like something she could do.

[Alchemystic]

46 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

....

 

I've never played Illusion but doesn't part of PA's damage heal back over time?  Why not play with the ratio of damage-to-heal back so that you have to kind of act fast as a Dom to capitalize on their damage (you know, by killing faster)?

 

....

See that makes a lot more sense than just leaving it as is, reducing the damage gives your secondary Assault powers chance to shine.

 

I was pondering some sort of compromise, where the spirit of Phantom Army is retained by keeping the power's ability to summon the phantoms, but instead of the purely aggressive powers they have access to, give them single target mez powers (with lower magnitude of course).

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Replacement]

This topic is interesting to me, because I've 180'd on it since Live.

 

I bought the rationale on live (I guess we're calling it pre-Snap now), where they cited bad interplay with Domination, but insinuated that went further into gameplay expectations. That would include weird damage and survival curves and such.

 

But now? Especially in light of the PA customization on Beta?

In a world where Empathy has been ported to MM with no changes, and we can make spines/fire brutes?

 

Yeah I just don't think any of that matters now.

 

It should get a pass on the beta server first, and that's a big thing I feel people forget is the reality: we'll try it, tweak it, launch it.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

This topic is interesting to me, because I've 180'd on it since Live.

 

I bought the rationale on live (I guess we're calling it pre-Snap now), where they cited bad interplay with Domination, but insinuated that went further into gameplay expectations. That would include weird damage and survival curves and such.

 

But now? Especially in light of the PA customization on Beta?

In a world where Empathy has been ported to MM with no changes, and we can make spines/fire brutes?

 

Yeah I just don't think any of that matters now.

 

It should get a pass on the beta server first, and that's a big thing I feel people forget is the reality: we'll try it, tweak it, launch it.

Great point. It probably won’t go live as is if it’s found to be overpowered. And you’re right. With some of the other sets that have been ported over the years, I suspect it won’t be as bad as folks say.

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

See that makes a lot more sense than just leaving it as is, reducing the damage gives your secondary Assault powers chance to shine.

 

I was pondering some sort of compromise, where the spirit of Phantom Army is retained by keeping the power's ability to summon the phantoms, but instead of the purely aggressive powers they have access to, give them single target mez powers (with lower magnitude of course).

See to me this might be more of issue than the current Phantom damage they do that heals back overtime. And you’re right to mention it should be low magnitude. I can easily see something like this being more overpowered in the hands of a dominator than the way the Phantom Army currently functions.

 

But hey, that’s what test server is for, and if they went with this way with Dominator Phantom Army, I wouldn’t say no. 😁

Edited January 5, 2020 by golstat2003

[Alchemystic]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

See to me this might be more of issue than the current Phantom damage they do that heals back overtime. And you’re right to mention it should be low magnitude. I can easily see something like this being more overpowered in the hands of a dominator than the way the Phantom Army currently functions.

 

But hey if they went with this I wouldn’t say no. 😁

hopefully the reduced damage would be counteracted by the increased damage output of Assault Powers.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

hopefully the reduced damage would be counteracted by the increased damage output of Assault Powers.

True, but I was more concerned about now having three Phantom Beings who can’t be killed stacking mez on top of what you’re stacking, on a character that has Perma Domination, Aka the City of Statutes concern the devs of old use to mention.

 

Edit: But maybe I worry too much. LOL

Edited January 5, 2020 by golstat2003

[Solarverse]

On 1/1/2020 at 2:59 PM, Leogunner said:

I've heard the reason was because it doesn't have much direct control to benefit from domination.  I don't really care about that, personally.  Some say swap some powers that would benefit from Domination but I'd be fine with just a straight port.  You can pair it with a control heavy secondary that gets the domination bonus in its place.

 

Granted, I've never actually played Illusion at all so I don't know how strong the set is first hand, I could presume Spectral Wounds is a flexible power that could be replaced.

I have tested Illusions/Energy Manipulation on another server. It worked great and was the most fun Powerset/AT I have ever played. It benefited perfectly with Domination. All the reasons given for why Illusions was not given to Doms is pure B.S. IMO. It was everything I imagined it to be and more. I'll leave it at that.

[Alchemystic]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I have tested Illusions/Energy Manipulation on another server. It worked great and was the most fun Powerset/AT I have ever played. It benefited perfectly with Domination. All the reasons given for why Illusions was not given to Doms is pure B.S. IMO. It was everything I imagined it to be and more. I'll leave it at that.

I wouldn't cite other servers too much in terms of powers/archetypes, they're not exactly seen as the most credible example of how to balance a game.