Kheldians. General Improvements and Null Gull Option

[SeraphimKensai]

I love to play Kheldians. When CoH was gone for all those dark years, I missed playing Kheldians the most. That said if anything was to change for Kheldians, I'd be open to:

 

1.) Power Pool Powers work in forms.

2.) Human form mez protection

 

Otherwise, I'd also want as I like the challenge:

3.) Void Hunters and Shadow Cysts back

4.) Quantum damage to be unresisted again.

 

 

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I love to play Kheldians. When CoH was gone for all those dark years, I missed playing Kheldians the most. That said if anything was to change for Kheldians, I'd be open to:

 

1.) Power Pool Powers work in forms.

2.) Human form mez protection

 

Otherwise, I'd also want as I like the challenge:

3.) Void Hunters and Shadow Cysts back

4.) Quantum damage to be unresisted again.

 

 

1 & 2 definitely no

 

3 & 4 yes please!!! especially 3 I really miss those moments of terror when you flit round the corner in squid form and see the dreaded word CYST

[boggo2300]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

It depends on number of controllers/doms on the team. Which is typically 1 max. So yay, mag 1 protection? I guess I'm safe from dark pit. Otherwise you get to enjoy being perma held outside of lightform or dwarf. 

 

Changing the inherent to always provide 1 of each AT category would help greatly. And let them outdamage a solo defender.

I think making this change to the inherent is probably the only suggestion on this thread I could support, and it will fix a lot of the complaints people seem to have about human form (I also think making Q damage un-resistable again and bringing back the other dedicated enemies are good things, I have no idea why they were pulled out to begin with, well I do, but disagree with it very strongly)

[Haijinx]

The fact that dwarf works like a break free is probable good enough. 

 

If only going dwarf and back didn't detoggle you...

 

 

[boggo2300]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The fact that dwarf works like a break free is probable good enough. 

 

If only going dwarf and back didn't detoggle you...

 

 

In honour of full disclosure, my macro for shifting to human form DOES toggle my shields (though of course due to the limit of macros, only the first one in the macro comes on automatically, you need to click the macro once for every extra shield)

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

In honour of full disclosure, my macro for shifting to human form DOES toggle my shields (though of course due to the limit of macros, only the first one in the macro comes on automatically, you need to click the macro once for every extra shield)

So why not just suppress them instead?

 

A timer could be added to the suppression so that this wasn't necessarily instant, if instant was too powerful. 

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

So why not just suppress them instead?

 

A timer could be added to the suppression so that this wasn't necessarily instant, if instant was too powerful. 

Honestly I'm not too fussed about the suppression, I don't think it's necessary but I don't have nightmares about it, some of the other suggestions specifically pool powers to shifted forms I will NEVER be happy with

[Lines]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So why not just suppress them instead?

 

A timer could be added to the suppression so that this wasn't necessarily instant, if instant was too powerful. 

This would be neat.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

Honestly I'm not too fussed about the suppression, I don't think it's necessary but I don't have nightmares about it, some of the other suggestions specifically pool powers to shifted forms I will NEVER be happy with

Pool powers to shifted forms would be OP with the inherent as it is now for teams anyway.

 

Especially for PBs they get +resist for every blaster, scrapper, brute, stalker.  Like those are hard to find in teams ..

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Pool powers to shifted forms would be OP with the inherent as it is now for teams anyway.

 

Especially for PBs they get +resist for every blaster, scrapper, brute, stalker.  Like those are hard to find in teams ..

harder to avoid than anything, though the best fun I've ever had in city was on straight Kheld teams on live, pretty much every second mob had a Cyst 😄 ahh the chaos!!!

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Alternately, a bit of mez protection in the shields, to give people a reason to take them. It doesnt have to be much - mag 2-3. Just enough to give human form some dignity and be useful other than crapping out dark extractions, inner light, mires/eclipse and going back to a shapeshifted form.

I'd settle for MAG 1 Protection vs all Status (including Knockback) per Human form bubble shield (toggle on all 3 to get MAG 3 Protection vs all Status effects).  Would certainly give a needed excuse to pick (and toggle on) all three shields. 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

1.) Power Pool Powers work in forms.

2.) Human form mez protection

• NO.
• As mentioned above, I'd settle for MAG 1 Protection vs All (including Knockback) in each Human form shield power while toggled on.

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

3.) Void Hunters and Shadow Cysts back

4.) Quantum damage to be unresisted again.

• Yes ... although I would personally recommend limiting them to higher level play.  Random Void Hunters appear at Levels 30+ and Shadow Cysts appear at Levels 40+.  Nictus Dwarves would appear at Levels 25+ (after you can get Dwarf yourself) and Nictus Novas would appear at Levels 12+ (after you can get Nova yourself).  Quantum Gunners can appear at Levels 2+.
• Counter-proposal.  In an ideal world (minus spaghetti code), you'd make Quantum damage a SCALING UNRESISTABLE damage attack.  What do I mean by that?
  (Quantum Level - 4) * 2 = Unresistable % of damage to Kheldians
  This means that at Quantum Levels 1-4 the Unresistable damage is 0% of the damage dealt ... and at Level 54 the Unresistable damage is 100% of the damage dealt.
  I shudder to think what kind of voodoo pasta twirling would be required to implement that using the codebase for City of Heroes ... 👀

Edited January 3, 2020 by Redlynne

[boggo2300]

9 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

• Counter-proposal.  In an ideal world (minus spaghetti code), you'd make Quantum damage a SCALING UNRESISTABLE damage attack.  What do I mean by that?
  (Quantum Level - 4) * 2 = Unresistable % of damage to Kheldians
  This means that at Quantum Levels 1-4 the Unresistable damage is 0% of the damage dealt ... and at Level 54 the Unresistable damage is 100% of the damage dealt.
  I shudder to think what kind of voodoo pasta twirling would be required to implement that using the codebase for City of Heroes ... 👀

OMG I love that!!

[Saiyajinzoningen]

ok so uh light from provides mag 3 mez protection in human form and acrobatics provides 2 in human form for a whopping 5 mag protection which is damn good mez protection in human form tested yesterday and was not held at 4x8  VS circle of thorn mages. Id rather they reduce or remove the light form crash plz

[SeraphimKensai]

11 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'd settle for MAG 1 Protection vs all Status (including Knockback) per Human form bubble shield (toggle on all 3 to get MAG 3 Protection vs all Status effects).  Would certainly give a needed excuse to pick (and toggle on) all three shields. 

• NO.
• As mentioned above, I'd settle for MAG 1 Protection vs All (including Knockback) in each Human form shield power while toggled on.

• Yes ... although I would personally recommend limiting them to higher level play.  Random Void Hunters appear at Levels 30+ and Shadow Cysts appear at Levels 40+.  Nictus Dwarves would appear at Levels 25+ (after you can get Dwarf yourself) and Nictus Novas would appear at Levels 12+ (after you can get Nova yourself).  Quantum Gunners can appear at Levels 2+.
• Counter-proposal.  In an ideal world (minus spaghetti code), you'd make Quantum damage a SCALING UNRESISTABLE damage attack.  What do I mean by that?
  (Quantum Level - 4) * 2 = Unresistable % of damage to Kheldians
  This means that at Quantum Levels 1-4 the Unresistable damage is 0% of the damage dealt ... and at Level 54 the Unresistable damage is 100% of the damage dealt.
  I shudder to think what kind of voodoo pasta twirling would be required to implement that using the codebase for City of Heroes ... 👀

I like all this, but as a compromise, I'd enjoy toggle suppression in forms as other posters have suggested.

 

And as a previous suggestion, maybe remove the crash in lightform (I'm typically fine with it on my perma lightform PB as I'm expecting/preparing for it, but it freaks out ppl on my teams).

[TechbotAlpha]

Having an Inherent that wasn't team reliant sure wouldn't hurt. Even if I, personally, spend pretty much all the time on Khelds teaming with friends anyway, kind of not the point heh.

[Myrmidon]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:02 PM, boggo2300 said:

It sounds to me (apologies if I'm wrong) that you are trying to play in a single form at a time, and while thats do-able, it misses the magic of the AT's my attack chain usually includes a quick zip through all three forms, unless it's a trash mob (not sure if it's me or if it is actually true, but the Kheld dance seems WAY easier on a shade than a PB)

Now, THAT peaks my interest in Kheldians.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

Now, THAT peaks my interest in Kheldians.

my mob tactic is basically a Lobster Bomb, followed by a quick flit through human form to suck up the health and end from the corpses before ending in squid racing to the roof and picking off whats left, I get SO much satisfaction out of that!   It is definitely more doable with a WS than a PB due to the different power effects but WS is a more natural fit for me anyway

[agentx5]

If I may offer a suggestion, from the perspective of a non-Kheldian player?
If y'all are wanting Kheldians to be buffed in a way that more people would play them, why not just make their inherent power "Cosmic Balance" do more?

That would also have the benefit of encouraging more teamplay, which in my experience is what matters more.

I want to see Kheldians leading teams more, being kind of a go-to class/archetype for leading teams.

And it's partly because for the Kheldian player, the reason for wanting more people on the team is that it makes them stronger where the team lacks.

 

I mean wasn't that the original design intent?

 

Quote

Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their teammates. Peacebringers' metamorphic nature allows them to bring balance to their team.
* Your Damage will increase for each nearby Tanker, Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender teammate by 20% each.
* Your Damage Resistance will increase for each nearby Scrapper, Brute, Stalker or Blaster teammate by 10% each.
* Each Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Widow or Arachnos Soldier on their team gives a 10% Recharge Slow Resistance each.
* Finally each nearby Controller or Dominator teammate will grant you limited protection from Control effects by -1 magnitude each.
You cannot put Enhancements in this power.

 

Maybe instead:

40% +Dmg

15% DmgRes

20% res(rech)

-2 mag

 

Not a major change per se, but would definitely make people take another look at playing a Warshade or Peacebringer on Homecoming Servers.

[Redlynne]

Counter-proposal.

 

WHAT IF ... instead ... Khelidan Inherents were realigned to function as PBAoE Auras around themselves (which also affect self!) that affected only Teammates (not Leaguemates).  Think Supremacy range radius (so 60ft PBAoE) and then just tweak the buff values a goodly bit.

 

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft

 

In other words, nothing "massive" or inherently game breaking in and of itself.  You then "flip flop" which archetypes do what for Peacebringers and Warshades.

 

Peacebringer:

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft per Tanker Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Scrapper, Brute, Stalker or Blaster Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Widow or Arachnos Soldier within 60ft PBAoE.
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft per Controller or Dominator within 60ft PBAoE.

Warshade:

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft per Scrapper, Brute, Stalker or Blaster Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Tanker Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Widow or Arachnos Soldier within 60ft PBAoE.
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft per Controller or Dominator within 60ft PBAoE.

 

Reduced "gain" per Teammate ... but all your Teammates benefit from your presence (as a Kheldian), including you yourself.

[boggo2300]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Counter-proposal.

 

WHAT IF ... instead ... Khelidan Inherents were realigned to function as PBAoE Auras around themselves (which also affect self!) that affected only Teammates (not Leaguemates).  Think Supremacy range radius (so 60ft PBAoE) and then just tweak the buff values a goodly bit.

 

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft

 

In other words, nothing "massive" or inherently game breaking in and of itself.  You then "flip flop" which archetypes do what for Peacebringers and Warshades.

 

Peacebringer:

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft per Tanker Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Scrapper, Brute, Stalker or Blaster Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Widow or Arachnos Soldier within 60ft PBAoE.
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft per Controller or Dominator within 60ft PBAoE.

Warshade:

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft per Scrapper, Brute, Stalker or Blaster Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Tanker Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender Teammate within 60ft PBAoE.
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft per Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Widow or Arachnos Soldier within 60ft PBAoE.
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft per Controller or Dominator within 60ft PBAoE.

 

Reduced "gain" per Teammate ... but all your Teammates benefit from your presence (as a Kheldian), including you yourself.

I could live with that, of course I'd rather no changes at all, but this, combined with the suppress rather than de-toggle er toggles I could live with and I don't think it would break the flavour of Khelds to badly

 

BUT we need the rest of the special enemies back with it!   and Redlynnes awesome scaling resistance to Q attacks idea

[agentx5]

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Counter-proposal.

 

WHAT IF ... instead ... Khelidan Inherents were realigned to function as PBAoE Auras around themselves (which also affect self!) that affected only Teammates (not Leaguemates).  Think Supremacy range radius (so 60ft PBAoE) and then just tweak the buff values a goodly bit.

 

• +5% Damage to all Teammates within 60ft
• +5% Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft
• +5% Movement and Recharge Slow Resistance to all Teammates within 60ft
• -1 MAG Protection vs Status Effects to all Teammates within 60 ft

 

In other words, nothing "massive" or inherently game breaking in and of itself. 

Sure why not, with one change if I may.  I like the intent, but remove the radius part please for two reasons.

 

1. First, as a Blaster who moves a LOT in combat, I can tell you I'm often going to be 80 ft or so away at times. I mean heck, when I boost the range on my sniper attack it's 240 ft.  And how often have we seen teams split up in combat.  It's rare to see a team that sticks all within 60 ft of one another.  Yes I know a divided team is often a dead team on +4/x8 difficulty, but it happens often.  Most people just don't have situational awareness enough alone to keep any sort of tactical formation going on.  In short, 60 ft isn't enough, that's my first point.

 

2. Second, as a person who codes stuff like this, there's two ways you can check this, and neither are great on server performance (and both can be sources of a memory leak if not handled very carefully): heartbeat check or interrupt check.

2a. Heartbeat works by having the computer(s) check conditions periodically, a time based cycle. It will have latency from anyone crossing in or out of the maximum radius in order to trigger the conditional. If you make it more responsive with faster checks, it lags resources down for client and server both.  If you make it less responsive, then it can be frustrating with moving targets.

2b. Interrupt works "on trigger" conditions, and will require some new core coding functionality to make it function correctly and it increases the demand on server & client internet communications. More importantly I'm not sure if the CoH engine is setup with functions to actually be an entry trigger, and it will be the burden on the other player's client to inform the server and the other players that they've entered or exited the radius. Client-side interrupt checks are also prone to tampering and reverse engineering, although I doubt that's an issue in this specific context.

It all depends on WHAT and HOW specifically to which method is the lesser of two impacts on performance, but this is much easier, if I may:

 

 

Counter-counter-proposal:

 

Not triggered by PBAoE radius, but simply a check that runs with all the other buffs checks (code efficiency), and sees how many teammates are in the active map, range independent.

That way you get the benefit without any responsiveness latency or potential performance issues.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by agentx5

[agentx5]

Redlynne, I appreciate what you're trying to suggest, and I like that; but I feel you missed the main point of my post.

I may have been too verbose, so let me be more succinct & clarify if I can?

 

The goal (not to lose sight of it in these specifics) would be to buff the Inherent Power for Kheldians, called Cosmic Balance.

There are multiple way we can discuss on doing that, but IMHO that would be the best thing because it would encourage Peacebringers and Warshades both to WANT to be on a team, as in it could be a reason you'd want to play the archetype, and something that'd make it stand out.

 

Whether that's like Leadership pool powers with defense, accuracy, mez resist, whatever; ultimately what I feel would be most important and most impactful without being game breaking is to reward being a part of a full team.  And that goal in turn is because teamplay is fun.  So In that I think, we can agree that's a good idea, yes?

Edited January 5, 2020 by agentx5
added URL link

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, agentx5 said:

Sure why not, with one change if I may.  I like the intent, but remove the radius part please for two reasons.

 

1. First, as a Blaster who moves a LOT in combat, I can tell you I'm often going to be 80 ft or so away at times. I mean heck, when I boost the range on my sniper attack it's 240 ft.  And how often have we seen teams split up in combat.  It's rare to see a team that sticks all within 60 ft of one another.  Yes I know a divided team is often a dead team on +4/x8 difficulty, but it happens often.  Most people just don't have situational awareness enough alone to keep any sort of tactical formation going on.  In short, 60 ft isn't enough, that's my first point.

 

2. Second, as a person who codes stuff like this, there's two ways you can check this, and neither are great on server performance (and both can be sources of a memory leak if not handled very carefully): heartbeat check or interrupt check.

2a. Heartbeat works by having the computer(s) check conditions periodically, a time based cycle. It will have latency from anyone crossing in or out of the maximum radius in order to trigger the conditional. If you make it more responsive with faster checks, it lags resources down for client and server both.  If you make it less responsive, then it can be frustrating with moving targets.

2b. Interrupt works "on trigger" conditions, and will require some new core coding functionality to make it function correctly and it increases the demand on server & client internet communications. More importantly I'm not sure if the CoH engine is setup with functions to actually be an entry trigger, and it will be the burden on the other player's client to inform the server and the other players that they've entered or exited the radius. Client-side interrupt checks are also prone to tampering and reverse engineering, although I doubt that's an issue in this specific context.

It all depends on WHAT and HOW specifically to which method is the lesser of two impacts on performance, but this is much easier, if I may:

 

 

Counter-counter-proposal:

 

Not triggered by PBAoE radius, but simply a check that runs with all the other buffs checks (code efficiency), and sees how many teammates are in the active map, range independent.

That way you get the benefit without any responsiveness latency or potential performance issues.

 

Yeah I like your amendment, nothing more annoying than pesky non Khelds gettin' all up in your tentacles 😄

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, agentx5 said:

Redlynne, I appreciate what you're trying to suggest, and I like that; but I feel you missed the main point of my post.

I may have been too verbose, so let me be more succinct & clarify if I can?

 

The goal (not to lose sight of it in these specifics) would be to buff the Inherent Power for Kheldians, called Cosmic Balance.

There are multiple way we can discuss on doing that, but IMHO that would be the best thing because it would encourage Peacebringers and Warshades both to WANT to be on a team, as in it could be a reason you'd want to play the archetype, and something that'd make it stand out.

 

Whether that's like Leadership pool powers with defense, accuracy, mez resist, whatever; ultimately what I feel would be most important and most impactful without being game breaking is to reward being a part of a full team.  And that goal in turn is because teamplay is fun.  So In that I think, we can agree that's a good idea, yes?

Redlynnes suggestion to replace it is actually LESS of a breaking of what makes Khelds Khelds than buffing cosmic balance would be, and Khelds ALWAYS want teammates, you underestimate how well Cosmic Balance works

[Redlynne]

13 hours ago, agentx5 said:

Redlynne, I appreciate what you're trying to suggest, and I like that; but I feel you missed the main point of my post.

I may have been too verbose, so let me be more succinct & clarify if I can?

 

The goal (not to lose sight of it in these specifics) would be to buff the Inherent Power for Kheldians, called Cosmic Balance.

There are multiple way we can discuss on doing that, but IMHO that would be the best thing because it would encourage Peacebringers and Warshades both to WANT to be on a team, as in it could be a reason you'd want to play the archetype, and something that'd make it stand out.

 

Whether that's like Leadership pool powers with defense, accuracy, mez resist, whatever; ultimately what I feel would be most important and most impactful without being game breaking is to reward being a part of a full team.  And that goal in turn is because teamplay is fun.  So In that I think, we can agree that's a good idea, yes?

There's a push/pull factor you need to contend with.

 

Kheldians want to be on teams.

Teams don't necessarily want to have Kheldians on their teams (Peacebringers are especially maligned for their Knockback potential, for example).

 

By changing Cosmic Balance from a purely selfish power that ONLY benefits each individual Kheldian (while doing nothing else for the team) ... to being a team buff power that rewards a team for sticking together ... you wind up with a better "load balancing" of the social dynamics surrounding wanting to invite a Kheldian onto teams.  It won't go ALL the way towards "fixing" the push/pull factor of teaming with Kheldians just by itself, but it would certainly help that dynamic shift more in favor of teams wanting to have Kheldians on the team.