Kheldians. General Improvements and Null Gull Option

[Doomrider]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

nope no toggles working on shifted forms, thats not a good thing, suppression or detoggles

I think you misunderstood the idea... the toggles wouldn't work at all on shifted forms. They'd provide no benefit while in Nova or Dwarf form. What this WOULD do, is allow you to not have to re-toggle when you returned to human form. This would be a huge QoL change for Tri-forms and provide greater build diversity.

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

I think you misunderstood the idea... the toggles wouldn't work at all on shifted forms. They'd provide no benefit while in Nova or Dwarf form. What this WOULD do, is allow you to not have to re-toggle when you returned to human form. This would be a huge QoL change for Tri-forms and provide greater build diversity.

Oh right, sorry, yeah that I have no issue with

[ScarySai]

A few things.

 

1: To all the Jrangers: shut up. Kheldians are great when good players go out of their way to max out their potential - yet remain incredibly flawed. To presume they don't need further improvement at this stage is pure ignorance.

 

2: 200% For toggle suppression. It would be very nice for both Khelds.

 

3: Making peacebringer knocks KD by default would help a lot of newer players not get shunned, and also just make builds a lot cleaner.

 

4: Warshades need either a higher damage cap or their attacks need to be pushed up a bit to at least be on par with PBs. Even damage capped, they struggle with hard single targets, like bosses and AVs.

Edited January 8, 2020 by ScarySai

[ScarySai]

On 1/7/2020 at 12:35 AM, monos1 said:

I've never played a warshade seriously, more of just to collect 50s. 

Why don't warshades suck? I thought they sucked. Can someone offer an explanation or link to clear this one up? You guys seem pretty confident they don't suck, and I would also like to be confident they don't suck.

(Sorry for double post, don't know how to edit this into the last one.)

 

They are very skill + keybind dependant and new players likely fail spectacularly and give them a bad rep. They were very strong before all these new builds and incarnates came in but have since kinda fallen behind.

 

Semi-perma damage cap/to hit, 3-4 perma pets, a full hp/end recovery every 14ish seconds and permanently capped resists before IO defense is factored in lead to a pretty versatile powerhouse. The main weakness of warshade is it's terrible single target damage and reliance of being surrounded by corpses to sustain itself.

Edited January 8, 2020 by ScarySai

[boggo2300]

6 hours ago, ScarySai said:

A few things.

 

1: To all the Jrangers: shut up. Kheldians are great when good players go out of their way to max out their potential - yet remain incredibly flawed. To presume they don't need further improvement at this stage is pure ignorance.

 

2: 200% For toggle suppression. It would be very nice for both Khelds.

 

3: Making peacebringer knocks KD by default would help a lot of newer players not get shunned, and also just make builds a lot cleaner.

 

4: Warshades need either a higher damage cap or their attacks need to be pushed up a bit to at least be on par with PBs. Even damage capped, they struggle with hard single targets, like bosses and AVs.

1: no

 

2: yes

 

3: I have huge issues with the whole jihad against KB so it's a soft no from me

 

4: rubbish!

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

4: rubbish!

No.

 

🙂

[Bossk_Hogg]

At minimum, Dawn Strike and Solar Flare should be made KD instead of KB. There's a reason why essentially every other melee attack with KB was changed. Khelds are slot poor as is.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[boggo2300]

21 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

At minimum, Dawn Strike and Solar Flare should be made KD instead of KB. There's a reason why essentially every other melee attack with KB was changed. Khelds are slot poor as is.

one reason almost none of mine have pool powers at all, I just don't have the slots to spare

[Monos King]

You guys can't just keep calling for changes in the thematic abilities because you find it troubling in your manufactured settings. Certain QoL changes make sense and don't take away, but really, advocating for Dawn Strike to be made knockdown on default? It's a nuke, absolutely not, I want to blow away enemies. Knockback is not nearly as negative as everyone warps it to be.

[ScarySai]

42 minutes ago, monos1 said:

Certain QoL changes make sense and don't take away, but really, advocating for Dawn Strike to be made knockdown on default? It's a nuke, absolutely not, I want to blow away enemies.

And others would like to follow-up on their melee attacks easier and have things nice and clustered for their AOE. This doesn't take away anything, it makes the AT more reliable out of the box. 

 

42 minutes ago, monos1 said:

Knockback is not nearly as negative as everyone warps it to be.

It is overblown a little bit for teams, but the fact remains that KD is better than KB in pretty much every practical scenario, it would free up a lot of slots, as well.

Edited January 9, 2020 by ScarySai

[Monos King]

59 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

And others would like to follow-up on their melee attacks easier and have things nice and clustered for their AOE. This doesn't take away anything, it makes the AT more reliable out of the box. 

 

It is overblown a little bit for teams, but the fact remains that KD is better than KB in pretty much every practical scenario, it would free up a lot of slots, as well.

That's cool. Sleep is also not the most practical feature, as hold is superior, and if you really think about it, short ranged attacks? Those could just be made long range. That would free up some slots.

I don't really care much for the practicality of things as much as I do the believability. Not everyone is a stat chaser. I recognize the importance of making balance changes on situational basis, but small details like this make or break immersion for me and other people. Having fun with the possibilities of powers, diversity, feeling the impact will always be more significant than a minor instance of practicality. I don't think everything should be practical. DS is a nuke that does great damage. Consider the knockback a trade-off.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, monos1 said:

You guys can't just keep calling for changes in the thematic abilities because you find it troubling in your manufactured settings. Certain QoL changes make sense and don't take away, but really, advocating for Dawn Strike to be made knockdown on default? It's a nuke, absolutely not, I want to blow away enemies. Knockback is not nearly as negative as everyone warps it to be.

Meant Radiant Strike, not Dawn. Dawn I'm more OK w being knockback as it least is a Nova analogue. But your basic melee attack shouldn't have random knockback. Solar Flare maps to Footstomp, which was changed from KB to KD in Issue 2 (along w almost all other melee KB powers).

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, monos1 said:

short ranged attacks? Those could just be made long range.

They kinda were.

 

1 hour ago, monos1 said:

That would free up some slots.

...no? 

 

1 hour ago, monos1 said:

I don't really care much for the practicality of things as much as I do the believability. Not everyone is a stat chaser.

I don't think asking for an AT who's best abilities are melee to not knock things away constantly is being a stat chaser so much as wanting reasonable QoL.

 

Immersion isn't even relevant here. You blow up, people get thrown on their back, and you then proceed to stomp on them. 

 

I'm kinda disappointed by how many suggestions are being replied with "BUH MUH FEE-FEES!" A grand overhaul that changes kheldians and how they play forever isn't happening. A bag of small fixes with the odd buff sprinkled in is really all each of them needs.

Edited January 9, 2020 by ScarySai

[Microcosm]

58 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Meant Radiant Strike, not Dawn. Dawn I'm more OK w being knockback as it least is a Nova analogue. But your basic melee attack shouldn't have random knockback. Solar Flare maps to Footstomp, which was changed from KB to KD in Issue 2 (along w almost all other melee KB powers).

I agree with this. Dawn Strike's kb is thematic and appropriate. Radiant Strike's is like trolling the player that made the kheld. There are ways to get around it, but it's a clunky mechanic that doesn't pan out for a melee power the purpose of which is damage and not "omggetoffme".

 

Related note, if the kb to kd procs that have been added could be turned into kb to knocktoward effect mentioned earlier in this threat that would give khelds (and other high kb sets) an option which could be highly desirable for teams and solo play. It's also a dangerous option that would have to be weighed by the player, as it would actively bring more threats closer, making it a fairly balanced trade off in my mind. I would gladly throw one of those procs in all my pb powers, whereas I begrudgingly do so now to stop trolling myself.

 

Edit: or make it a null the gull option, so as not to interfere with people using the current procs. With the gravity them it definitely makes more thematic sense for Warshades at the least. Or you could roleplay your PB as magnetically powered if you wished, which otherwise hasn't really existed in game.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Microcosm

[boggo2300]

41 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

They kinda were.

 

...no? 

 

I don't think asking for an AT who's best abilities are melee to not knock things away constantly is being a stat chaser so much as wanting reasonable QoL.

 

Immersion isn't even relevant here. You blow up, people get thrown on their back, and you then proceed to stomp on them. 

 

I'm kinda disappointed by how many suggestions are being replied with "BUH MUH FEE-FEES!" A grand overhaul that changes kheldians and how they play forever isn't happening. A bag of small fixes with the odd buff sprinkled in is really all each of them needs.

A PB's best abilities aren't it's melee attacks though

[Bossk_Hogg]

6 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

A PB's best abilities aren't it's melee attacks though

A peacebringer not using melee may as well roll a sentinel IMO. And the devs have already said sents are underpowered...

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

A peacebringer not using melee may as well roll a sentinel IMO. And the devs have already said sents are underpowered...

you are changing the argument

 

A PB's most valuable abilities are not, were never meant to be, and should never be it's melee attacks, I didn't say anywhere they should not be used

[Haijinx]

Always felt the best attacks were the form attacks. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

you are changing the argument

 

A PB's most valuable abilities are not, were never meant to be, and should never be it's melee attacks, I didn't say anywhere they should not be used

Gotcha. they're still the most damaging attacks by far. Do you really think sents would be OP if those 2 attacks were made KD? Do you really think sents would be lacking in KB options if those 2 were made KD?

 

If it was viewed as a QOL change for other corresponding attacks, why the hell not port that over to PB's?

Edited January 9, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Gotcha. they're still the most damaging attacks by far. Do you really think sents would be OP if those 2 attacks were made KD? Do you really think sents would be lacking in KB options if those 2 were made KD?

 

If it was viewed as a QOL change for other corresponding attacks, why the hell not port that over to PB's?

I hate with a passion the Jihad on this forum against KB so I disagree with the changes being made to Sent's as well

I would rather there were MORE disparity between ATs and powers rather than less, the suggestions threads here really feel like homogenisation and power creep more than anything, and it make me really sad! it honestly wouldn't take too many of these suggestion threads getting through to make me leave the game because it wouldn't be the game I love

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I hate with a passion the Jihad on this forum against KB so I disagree with the changes being made to Sent's as well

I would rather there were MORE disparity between ATs and powers rather than less, the suggestions threads here really feel like homogenisation and power creep more than anything, and it make me really sad! it honestly wouldn't take too many of these suggestion threads getting through to make me leave the game because it wouldn't be the game I love

Well you can always play witgh TO's to show you're a "real gamer" lol. The rest of us bads will take our QOL upgrades to make a marginal AT with a disadvantageous secondary effect more user friendly aside from permalightform/billion influence builds. 

 

It's not this forum, its been every forum since issue 0. Most people want KB changed in some fashion. Its fun (almost exclusively for the user) at the expense of some effectiveness for the team. Moreover, its irritating for many people, much like a coworker who doesn't bathe. Yeah, I can still function, it just a mild, constant nuisance. I say this as someone with an energy sent who frequently knocks shit out of my own range. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Immersion isn't even relevant here. You blow up, people get thrown on their back, and you then proceed to stomp on them. 

You can't just say it isn't relevant and then it's true you know.

You want some things to be knockdown and you have some reasons. I countered, and gave some reasons. Immersion is pretty relevant if people care, and someone else agreed that the thematic knockbacks appropriate.

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

...no? 

Being a stat chaser I realize this flew over your head. Some people actually enhance range on attacks. So making shorter range moves long range frees up spots. I should've clarified.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Well you can always play witgh TO's to show youre a "real gamer" lol. The rest of us bads will take our QOL upgrades to make a marginal AT with a disadvantageous secondary effect more user friendly aside from permalightform/billion influence builds. 

again completely unrelated to a single thing I said, and triform PB is significantly better than a Lightform human form PB, there are no marginal AT's just people who don't know how to get the best out of an AT 

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

again completely unrelated to a single thing I said, and triform PB is significantly better than a Lightform human form PB, there are no marginal AT's just people who don't know how to get the best out of an AT 

Human form should be viable. What is the other option? Half ass blaster and half ass tank that occasionally drops into human to pop inner light?

 

It's also entirely relevant because of the "whaa, game too easy!" opposition to buffs/QOL adjustments. Play fucking Darksouls if you want a challenge. Or use TO's if you gotta flex that epeen. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[boggo2300]

Just now, Bossk_Hogg said:

Human form should be viable. What is the other option? Half ass blaster and half ass tank that occasionally drops into human to pop inner light?

nope