Time to give scrappers super strength

[Without_Pause]

17 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

Meanwhile Tankers getting Super Reflexes and being near immortal.

Agreed. I got a Dark/sr Scrapper at T3 level. My Claws/sr is close to that. I used RoP to level, but if I could think of a good alt build, I might do a post T4 rebuild without it. The only thing holding me back from a SR Tanker is I have a Shield/fire at near T3 already. Not only was it the only build so far to go through MJ's arc at +2x8 as a fresh Level 50, it did so with a single fluke death. Many missions I simply didn't look at my health bar. I did go Savage/sr Brute though. Add in my Ice/sr Sent and I'm on pace to have the same number of SRs at 50 as EAs. Tankers already get Shield, SR, Stone, and Invul. There's nothing game breaking about adding EA to that list. 

[venetiasilver]

7 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Agreed. I got a Dark/sr Scrapper at T3 level. My Claws/sr is close to that. I used RoP to level, but if I could think of a good alt build, I might do a post T4 rebuild without it. The only thing holding me back from a SR Tanker is I have a Shield/fire at near T3 already. Not only was it the only build so far to go through MJ's arc at +2x8 as a fresh Level 50, it did so with a single fluke death. Many missions I simply didn't look at my health bar. I did go Savage/sr Brute though. Add in my Ice/sr Sent and I'm on pace to have the same number of SRs at 50 as EAs. Tankers already get Shield, SR, Stone, and Invul. There's nothing game breaking about adding EA to that list. 

Overall I think the Super Strength porting problem will lead to the same results, that being using everything outside of Super Strength aside from Foot Stomp and KO Blow. (The T1/T3 are frequently not slotted or picked in the attack chains) Punch, Epic Attack, one of the boxing powers, cross punch. 
I think it needs to be fixed from the ground up and then ported to Scrappers as the "New Super Strength"

[Without_Pause]

32 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

Overall I think the Super Strength porting problem will lead to the same results, that being using everything outside of Super Strength aside from Foot Stomp and KO Blow. (The T1/T3 are frequently not slotted or picked in the attack chains) Punch, Epic Attack, one of the boxing powers, cross punch. 
I think it needs to be fixed from the ground up and then ported to Scrappers as the "New Super Strength"

The issue with Foot Stomp is it's radius. Spin has better DPA and recharges faster. Its radius is 8 versus 15 for Foot Stomp. While KO Blow has better DPA then Focus, it recharges in 20 seconds versus 8 for Focus. Also, FU can stack for 60% damage. Rage can stack for 160% although with the obvious downside. 

[BrandX]

22 hours ago, venetiasilver said:

And I think Caitlin Fairchild is in the Scrapper territory.

 

Agreed!  And I love Gen-13! ❤️ 

[Warshades]

I think rage for scrappes would need a bit of a nerf. The extreme version of SS on scrappers is a proc bomb build combo of ss/rad. Have a tanker version of this and nothing except bosses survive after stomp, GZ, rad therapy, and psi tornado which is up every mob. Proc out KO blow and dominate and it destroys the leftover bosses with rage crash hardly being noticeable. Considering scrappers higher dmg modifier and crits, this would be a walking nuke.

[venetiasilver]

On 10/27/2024 at 8:50 AM, Warshades said:

I think rage for scrappes would need a bit of a nerf. The extreme version of SS on scrappers is a proc bomb build combo of ss/rad. Have a tanker version of this and nothing except bosses survive after stomp, GZ, rad therapy, and psi tornado which is up every mob. Proc out KO blow and dominate and it destroys the leftover bosses with rage crash hardly being noticeable. Considering scrappers higher dmg modifier and crits, this would be a walking nuke.

I think it'd be fine to have Rage as is but with taking more damage for it.
-25% Resist, -11.25% Defense during the duration. A quarter less survivability.
 

[Warshades]

5 hours ago, venetiasilver said:

I think it'd be fine to have Rage as is but with taking more damage for it.
-25% Resist, -11.25% Defense during the duration. A quarter less survivability.

 

I think the bigger issue is the amount of damage it would be able to deal, not whether it's survivable or not. Foot stomp is also very good soft control because of the knockdown which prevents mobs from attacking. So even with -25% resist, it wouldn't really be a quarter less survivability. Even then, the -25% resist is also easily countered by using 2 orange insps. I'm all for scrappers getting SS, but I do feel that rage would need to go down to 40-50% damage buff at the most compared to it's current 80% for scrappers. I also wouldn't mind a redesign as @Without_Pause said. Aside from stomp, KO blow, rage, and whatever T1/2 power you pick, nothing else is worth picking up. Cross punch is superior to haymaker and hurl boulder is pretty bad compared to the faster animating single target range attacks in epic pools. Hand clap is minimum use at best with armors that can layer and stack stuns. The entire set is built around picking up rage as a power. It would be interesting (if it's possible) to have alternative damage numbers applied to SS powers if your build didn't pick up rage as a power, that would allow more flexibility in building SS combos without rage crash. This has also been done before (I think for sentinel SR?), but they could offer an alternative "build up" like power as a choice that locks you out of rage if you choose it instead.

[PeregrineFalcon]

For the Scrapper version of Super Strength they should look at the damage of the various attacks, modify some of them to put them into similar range as other Scrapper primaries, and then replace Rage (just for the Scrapper version) with Build Up.

 

Problem solved.

[bAss_ackwards]

This is a personal observation, but Rage is what makes Super Strength feel like it is Super Strength. If you "cottage rule" it into something else, it will feel like the set is missing something.

 

It's one of the reasons why I don't particularly care for Dark Melee on Stalkers. Yes they all need to have Build Up as part of their kit, but to me I just don't feel like the set is complete. On my Scrapper practically have perma on Soul Drain (3 second gap), so the uptime with with Rage doesn't really make it unique. Soul Drain doesn't have any crash of any sort, but the low end is also lower than a regular Build Up with just 1 target. However, it does also make up for a higher cap, at 150% Damage and 30% ToHit when you're max mob farming.

[Gobbledygook]

Can we get it for Scrapperd and Stalkers?

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Gobbledygook said:

Can we get it for Scrapperd and Stalkers?

 

I'm pretty sure there are more recent threads on this subject than this one 😛 (actually, I know there are, because I was in the thick of this argument just a few weeks ago).

 

I've participated in this argument too many times already; I've listed my examples of characters from comics that I think are Super Strength scrappers (some of them being ones already listed in this thread, like Rogue), I've given my arguments for why the set should be available to scrappers, and I've made my counter-arguments against the usual arguments that people make against it.  Been there, done that, sick of arguing about it.  I've said that I don't care if Scrappers don't get Rage as long as the set is balanced in such a way that it isn't underpowered without it.  Having said all of those things, there's not much more on the subject for me to say.  My opinions on the subject are well documented.

 

Suffice to say, I am in favor of Scrappers getting it.   I think my current Bubblegum Crisis-inspired Inv/SS Tanker ought to be a Scrapper, but I couldn't make her a Scrapper so she's a Tanker.  So... I'm just going to add my "Yes, please," to this and leave it at that, and let others do the arguing this time around.

[Erratic1]

9 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

I've participated in this argument too many times already; I've listed my examples of characters from comics that I think are Super Strength scrappers (some of them being ones already listed in this thread, like Rogue),

 

Rogue goes toe to toe with Thor and Captain Marvel. If Rogue is a scrapper the term has lost all meaning.

[Stormwalker]

22 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Rogue goes toe to toe with Thor and Captain Marvel. If Rogue is a scrapper the term has lost all meaning.

 

As I have said before, I define the AT's by narrative role (which is what the archetypes' inherent powers are intended to represent), not by capabilities.  Rogue acts like a Scrapper.  She's an aggressive fighter (thus not a Tanker), and she doesn't rely on building anger to fuel her might (thus not a Brute).  Specifically, the role she filled is that of a blitz attacker.  That's a Scrapper's job.

 

Also, just to point out... Iron Man is a Sentinel and he goes toe to toe with everyone.  There is more to AT differences than your resist caps.

 

Also, as I already said, I'm not getting drawn into this argument again.  I've been 'round and 'round on all these points enough times already.  I've said what I have to say.  So I won't be replying to any further comment on this.

Edited March 14 by Stormwalker

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

As I have said before, I define the AT's by narrative role (which is what the archetypes' inherent powers are intended to represent), not by capabilities.  Rogue acts like a Scrapper.  She's an aggressive fighter (thus not a Tanker), and she doesn't rely on building anger to fuel her might (thus not a Brute).

 

Naritively she killed Thor (What If). Narratively she duplicates others poweres. To the extent she fights, it is most often one-on-one as a powerhouse. Toi the extent she scraps, it's like Superman being in a red sun situation--a temporary diversion from what is normal.

[Story Archer]

On 10/27/2024 at 7:50 AM, Warshades said:

I think rage for scrappes would need a bit of a nerf. The extreme version of SS on scrappers is a proc bomb build combo of ss/rad. Have a tanker version of this and nothing except bosses survive after stomp, GZ, rad therapy, and psi tornado which is up every mob. Proc out KO blow and dominate and it destroys the leftover bosses with rage crash hardly being noticeable. Considering scrappers higher dmg modifier and crits, this would be a walking nuke.

 

...plus having the added benefit of stacking Holds, just in case. It really is an amazing Tanker build. I remember how proud I was for having figured out all of the little synergies... and then I turned around and everybody else had figured out the exact same thing.

[Gobbledygook]

What if we rebuilt, as mentioned, from the ground up?

I think that if Super Strength was redesigned combining some of the comments made by @venetiasilver, @Warshades, and @PeregrineFalcon, it could be amazing.

 

As mentioned, almost all of SS is about getting Footstomp, KoB, and Rage.

We're going to put Rage in the corner for now, and ignore him.

We should bring all of the crappy powers up to a decent level, and then look at Rage again. Nothing too crazy.

I'm not a numbers guy, so I'll leave that up to someone else.

Looking back at Rage, with the adjustments we made earlier, it's no longer a crutch that we use to keep us on our feet.

Now it's something fancy that can be brought out at a dinner party.

Now, it only gives around 50% damage buff. That's ok though. Remember, we buffed the other powers.

It still gives the same tohit buff as before, but now it_______!

These are just some random ideas.

(-recharge in foe and +recharge on self, -res, +damage proc, boosts secondary effects of all powers)

 

 

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

What if we rebuilt, as mentioned, from the ground up?

I think that if Super Strength was redesigned combining some of the comments made by @venetiasilver, @Warshades, and @PeregrineFalcon, it could be amazing.

 

As mentioned, almost all of SS is about getting Footstomp, KoB, and Rage.

We're going to put Rage in the corner for now, and ignore him.

We should bring all of the crappy powers up to a decent level, and then look at Rage again. Nothing too crazy.

I'm not a numbers guy, so I'll leave that up to someone else.

Looking back at Rage, with the adjustments we made earlier, it's no longer a crutch that we use to keep us on our feet.

Now it's something fancy that can be brought out at a dinner party.

Now, it only gives around 50% damage buff. That's ok though. Remember, we buffed the other powers.

It still gives the same tohit buff as before, but now it_______!

These are just some random ideas.

(-recharge in foe and +recharge on self, -res, +damage proc, boosts secondary effects of all powers)

 

 

 

Now that I actually have a high level Inv/SS Tanker, I have a better grasp of the Rage problem than I once did.  I always knew that the SS attacks were underpowered, and that Rage was overpowered.  But I didn't realize just how true that was.  Now I understand that Rage is hilariously overpowered.  And that without it, the SS attacks are... frankly, terrible.

 

So, I think you have the right idea here.   The tricky thing is, many Tanker and Brute players will scream bloody murder if you touch their version of Rage, because they are accustomed to it.  It's been the way it is for so long that there's no way to avoid that reaction.

 

Which means that, if we don't want Scrappers to get the current version of Rage, but do want to give them Super Strength, then the Scrapper version of Super Strength has to be different from the Tanker/Brute version.  Substantially different.  Now, there is precedent for this.  Scrapper Energy Melee is quite a lot different from the other versions because of its unique mechanic for TF critical hits (in fact, I prefer the Scrapper version of EM, personally, though I still enjoy my EM Brute).

 

What I'd personally like to see is for a Scrapper version of SS to have improved DPA across the board, but a weaker Rage (with a correspondingly weaker crash), so that the overall performance is about where a Scrapper version of SS should be (which is to say, DPS when factoring in the Critical Strikes proc should compare favorably with Brute and Tanker SS damage to a similar degree that the other shared attack sets do), but where it's not entirely driven by Rage.

[Maelwys]

56 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

many Tanker and Brute players will scream bloody murder if you touch their version of Rage, because they are accustomed to it.  It's been the way it is for so long that there's no way to avoid that reaction.

 

It's not a huge task to rebalance the damage aspect - assume ED capped damage slotting in the attacks and Single Stacked Rage, then lower the damage buff on Rage whilst raising the base damage on the attacks.

 

As long as you end up at the same final damage figure then the only folks that lose out will be those that double stack Rage, which is what makes the set so problematic anyway. And you can help counter those complaints by lowering the Rage crash. Frankly, if it was me I'd eliminate the crash entirely but make Rage overwrite itself instead of stack. Too many edge case shenanigans otherwise.

[Apogee]

On 3/14/2025 at 10:43 AM, Stormwalker said:

Also, as I already said, I'm not getting drawn into this argument again.  I've been 'round and 'round on all these points enough times already.  I've said what I have to say.  So I won't be replying to any further comment on this.

 

2 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Now that I actually have a high level Inv/SS Tanker, I have a better grasp of the Rage problem than I once did.  I always knew that the SS attacks were underpowered, and that Rage was overpowered.  But I didn't realize just how true that was.  Now I understand that Rage is hilariously overpowered.  And that without it, the SS attacks are... frankly, terrible.

 

So, I think you have the right idea here.   The tricky thing is, many Tanker and Brute players will scream bloody murder if you touch their version of Rage, because they are accustomed to it.  It's been the way it is for so long that there's no way to avoid that reaction.

 

Which means that, if we don't want Scrappers to get the current version of Rage, but do want to give them Super Strength, then the Scrapper version of Super Strength has to be different from the Tanker/Brute version.  Substantially different.  Now, there is precedent for this.  Scrapper Energy Melee is quite a lot different from the other versions because of its unique mechanic for TF critical hits (in fact, I prefer the Scrapper version of EM, personally, though I still enjoy my EM Brute).

 

What I'd personally like to see is for a Scrapper version of SS to have improved DPA across the board, but a weaker Rage (with a correspondingly weaker crash), so that the overall performance is about where a Scrapper version of SS should be (which is to say, DPS when factoring in the Critical Strikes proc should compare favorably with Brute and Tanker SS damage to a similar degree that the other shared attack sets do), but where it's not entirely driven by Rage.

 

Back away from the keyboard...breathe...find your happy place

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Frankly, if it was me I'd eliminate the crash entirely but make Rage overwrite itself instead of stack. Too many edge case shenanigans otherwise.

 

I could get on this bus.

[Stormwalker]

7 hours ago, Apogee said:

 

 

Back away from the keyboard...breathe...find your happy place

 

Well, what I should have said is I won't be arguing further on this.

 

In this case, I was expressing agreement with someone else.  So I allowed myself that.

[Stormwalker]

8 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

It's not a huge task to rebalance the damage aspect - assume ED capped damage slotting in the attacks and Single Stacked Rage, then lower the damage buff on Rage whilst raising the base damage on the attacks.

 

As long as you end up at the same final damage figure then the only folks that lose out will be those that double stack Rage, which is what makes the set so problematic anyway. And you can help counter those complaints by lowering the Rage crash. Frankly, if it was me I'd eliminate the crash entirely but make Rage overwrite itself instead of stack. Too many edge case shenanigans otherwise.

 

Oh, I agree with you entirely that this would be an appropriate course, and probably even the best course.   But I've seen some of the other arguments that have resulted from similar suggestions in the past, and am therefore not hopeful about coming to consensus on it.

[Avernal]

You know what I've found a really refreshing and unique mechanic that might work well for a retuned Super Strength? The way Unrelenting from the Prescence Pool removes the crash of Unleash Potential from Force of Will, yet both powers add some nice boosts to a character. I took these on one of my Stalkers randomly as I'd never touched those pools on any character before and whilst it was an unorthodox approach I ended up absolutely loving it and how they synergised together.

Having Rage's crash mitigated by making it unstackable but able to refresh would be one good way to reward people investing in the recharge to achieve it, another way might be adding a second utility power to SS that smoothed out some of its shortcomings by itself, but could also be used in tandem with Rage to remove the crash.

[Erratic1]

15 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Frankly, if it was me I'd eliminate the crash entirely but make Rage overwrite itself instead of stack.

 

I would have sworn crashless Super Strength was already offered to the community already and a sizable enough minority rejected it.

 

 

[Maelwys]

11 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I would have sworn crashless Super Strength was already offered to the community already and a sizable enough minority rejected it.

 

Presumably that's because by itself it'd result in a noticeable damage nerf to the procced out double Rage stackers.

 

However removing some of the damage buff from Crashless Rage whilst adding to the rest of the powerset's base damage would allow SS to maintain a high performance ceiling without leaning into maintaining multiple Rages (because additional damage buffs would all end up granting larger red numbers) and as long as the high ToHit buff is kept it'll allow the min/mixers to continue to ignore accuracy slotting and procbomb everything.

 

Effectively a soloing SS who currently single stacks Rage would end up benefitting (no Rage Crash plus their damage output would end up rising a bit due to other sources of damage buff like Inspirations, Set Bonuses, Fury, Musculature Alpha, Assault Hybrid, etc). And a soloing SS who currently double stacks Rage would end up dealing a bit lower damage but having no Rage Crash (although Brutes would be less impacted from the reduced Rage damage buff than Tankers due to Fury). However on teams with external damage buffs like Fulcrum Shift etc. both those players would be dealing higher damage than before.

So whilst a min/maxed double Rage stacking SS Tanker would not be able to attain as high red numbers solo (which is where the balance problem lies and why it's been historically problematic to port the set to Scrappers and Stalkers) they wouldn't have to deal with the Crash and their performance on teams would actually improve a bit.

 

"Crashless Rage" could potentially also be turned into a toggle to avoid having to manually trigger it every few minutes and free up a few enhancement slots... but that'd be a different argument + balancing act.

 

Obviously any changes are going to have some knee jerk "nopes", but SS is a big outlier primarily due to all the self damage buffing that it's capable of achieving purely via Rage. Soloing SS characters that don't stack Rage have a drastically different performance ceiling to soloing SS characters that do, so IMO any attempt at balancing the set will have to try to reduce that variable.

 

Edited Thursday at 11:27 AM by Maelwys