Fixing Martial Arts

[SeraphimKensai]

I played my lvl 50 invuln/ma tank last night and remembered why I don't play it a lot, a lack of AoE.

 

The set would benefit ideally I think from changing a power to add another pbaoe.

 

Additionally, I'm not opposed to giving it either increased damage, or allowing it to debuff some resistances of it's targets as it attacks.

[ShardWarrior]

18 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I played my lvl 50 invuln/ma tank last night and remembered why I don't play it a lot, a lack of AoE.

Why are you expecting a single target set to be full of AoE?

[NNDeepdish]

10 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Why are you expecting a single target set to be full of AoE?

He didn't say that

[Outrider_01]

54 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

It is a single target king, straight damage.  Fire came along later and the dot component as well as the set being fire damage typed is a bonus.

 

You can't have 2 kings, but you can have a rival attempting for the crown 😀

I take this back, for a scrapper the set is under performing looking at Eagle Kick compared to Greater Fire Sword.  GFS is Lethal/Fire damage added together is the same same as Eagle Claw at about 140 smashing, then you factor in 80% chance for 5 12.5 ticks (practically auto hit) its closer to 200 on the same recharge vs 148 if it crits at 15% (not counting the double damage really, that crit chance is just so low), .2 second faster animation for GFS (not that it matters).  I know the sets are different, but in the end it just adds up to floating DAMAGE NUMBERS! that make Fire look better on paper.  But MA has the better sexy animations 🥰

 

I cringe at MA my first love melee set and how it kinda fell behind the newer ported over sets 😭

52 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

his is because MA is meant to be a single target set.  As for the stuns, they are meant to work in concert with one another, not alone.  Use TK > CS > EC and you will have everything short of AVs in perma stun.  Once you have them stunned, they are very easily contained from doing the drunk walk with CAK. 

 Good point

[Lazarillo]

Give me a reason to take Thunder Kick without feeling like I'm having to sacrifice effectiveness. That's all I ask, really.

[Outrider_01]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

Give me a reason to take Thunder Kick without feeling like I'm having to sacrifice effectiveness. That's all I ask, really.

A melee set with very sexy and smooth animations regardless of attack, no weapon draw (not that it matters), and you fight mostly with your feet  !

[Lazarillo]

10 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

A melee set with very sexy and smooth animations regardless of attack, no weapon draw (not that it matters), and you fight mostly with your feet  !

I mean, those are all nice things about MA in general, yes (and heck, since I hate what "No Redraw" customization does to weapon set animations, MA not having them in the first place totally matters!).  But not really getting to the heart of the matter of Thunder Kick being just all-around weaker than 5 other attacks from the same set.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Bossk_Hogg]

Thunder Kick needs something. I'd love to see it given the defense that tankers/brutes get on Storm Kick. Tankers need something else, but that's true of all their crappy T1's now that bruising was removed.

 

Eagle Claw straight up needs some more damage though. Really, any attack with an animation of 2 seconds or higher needs some damage tweaks beyond their standard damage formula. I'm not a fan of the trend to just shortening all animations - let the big hits be showy but hit harder than they "should" based on the damage/recharge/end calcs to make up for the corpse blasting.

 

And a super hard no on removing the damage buff to Focus Chi for more stuns.

 

MA is a solid, baseline performing set IMO. They shouldn't turn everything into Titan Weapons. Hell, Titan Weapons shouldn't even be Titan Weapons! 

[ShardWarrior]

32 minutes ago, NNDeepdish said:

He didn't say that

And yet the criticism was expressly said to be a lack of AoE.  It seems to me if one is looking for a lot of AoE damage, they would have chosen something other than a set designed to be for single target.

[NNDeepdish]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

And yet the criticism was expressly said to be a lack of AoE.  It seems to me if one is looking for a lot of AoE damage, they would have chosen something other than a set designed to be for single target.

He didn't say "a lot of AoE damage" either. 

[Outrider_01]

26 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I mean, those are all nice things about MA in general, yes (and heck, since I hate what "No Redraw" customization does to weapon set animations, MA not having them in the first place totally matters!).  But not really getting to the heart of the matter of Thunder Kick being just all-around weaker than 5 other attacks from the same set.

I was making a joke 🤣

 

Biggest selling point martial arts is the weapon redraw....of a shoe! POW! Size 10 to the kisser.

[ShardWarrior]

16 minutes ago, NNDeepdish said:

He didn't say "a lot of AoE damage" either. 

Not using those exact words, no.  The term "lack of" generally means missing or a lack of something, which in the case of AoE and MA is false.  MA has an AoE with Dragons Tail, so saying it is "lacking AoE" is a bit of a misnomer.  It stands to reason that someone saying the set lacks AoE when it has an AoE in it, it would mean the person is looking for more AoE.  Not difficult to understand.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Outrider_01, look at my melee thread for why TW is better, and how WM is better.

 

Also, GFS sucks, FM has much better attacks in the same set than it's T9 for damage.

[oedipus_tex]

I think the folks who dislike teleportation attacks should try Feral Leap before judging. Feral Leap doesn't require targeting the ground. You target an enemy, and when you execute the attack, teleport instantly in front of them. It allows for a very Scrapper-locky style. If you ever lose sight of a target you can leap to them instantly.

 

Martial Arts is a set that I think should have high mobility like that.

[skoryy]

The thing is, MA was fixed.  It's just that the fix was Street Justice.

 

I think the bigger issue is that the older powersets could not only use a rework, but also some gimmicks like combos, forms, or such.  But I'm not sure how popular that would actually be.

[Haijinx]

MA has better AOE than many think if you use EC to set it up, due to the crit buff.   

 

Keep in mind DT animates very fast for a Pbaoe.  

 

Its not the ST king that people are tossing around though.  Its behind several sets.   Off the top of my head TW, WM, DB

 

Its not even king on stalkers.  My SJ stalker does more ST and more AOE than my MA stalker. 

 

Its the ST king at level 10 though since it has access to good attacks early. 

 

That said its in a good place, and ahead of quite a few sets. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Outrider_01, look at my melee thread for why TW is better, and how WM is better.

 

Also, GFS sucks, FM has much better attacks in the same set than it's T9 for damage.

FM is what needs adjusted, its lagging considering even with only DOTs and no controls at all its not a top damage set.

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I think the bigger issue is that the older powersets could not only use a rework, but also some gimmicks like combos, forms, or such.  But I'm not sure how popular that would actually be.

I would not mind seeing the addition of gimmicky type stuff added to some of the older sets.

 

13 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think the folks who dislike teleportation attacks should try Feral Leap before judging. Feral Leap doesn't require targeting the ground. You target an enemy, and when you execute the attack, teleport instantly in front of them. It allows for a very Scrapper-locky style. If you ever lose sight of a target you can leap to them instantly.

 

Martial Arts is a set that I think should have high mobility like that.

CO has lunge which is not dissimilar to Feral Leap.  As for MA being "high mobility", I think that would depend on what source you are drawing from. 

[WindDemon21]

21 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not using those exact words, no.  The term "lack of" generally means missing or a lack of something, which in the case of AoE and MA is false.  MA has an AoE with Dragons Tail, so saying it is "lacking AoE" is a bit of a misnomer.  It stands to reason that someone saying the set lacks AoE when it has an AoE in it, it would mean the person is looking for more AoE.  Not difficult to understand.

It was in comparison to other sets that all have at least an aoe and a melee cone. Lots which can still do as much single target damage as MA as well at times.

[Bossk_Hogg]

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

The thing is, MA was fixed.  It's just that the fix was Street Justice.

 

I think the bigger issue is that the older powersets could not only use a rework, but also some gimmicks like combos, forms, or such.  But I'm not sure how popular that would actually be.

I think there's a place for ""basic" sets without any gimmicks, that just get by on their raw numbers. I never liked Dual Blades because I felt like the game was playing me, telling me when to use certain powers and in what order. Never liked the feel of it, so didnt keep on w my dual blades character. I wouldn't want MA to turn into that. 

 

The sweet spot for them would be slightly lower than the more fiddly sets, which require more attention to achieve better results. MA can be the lazy man's somewhat worse Street Justice, and I'm personally cool w that. 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

I take this back, for a scrapper the set is under performing looking at Eagle Kick compared to Greater Fire Sword.  GFS is Lethal/Fire damage added together is the same same as Eagle Claw at about 140 smashing, then you factor in 80% chance for 5 12.5 ticks (practically auto hit) its closer to 200 on the same recharge vs 148 if it crits at 15% (not counting the double damage really, that crit chance is just so low), .2 second faster animation for GFS (not that it matters).  I know the sets are different, but in the end it just adds up to floating DAMAGE NUMBERS! that make Fire look better on paper.  But MA has the better sexy animations 🥰

 

I cringe at MA my first love melee set and how it kinda fell behind the newer ported over sets 😭

 Good point

Damage type does not appear to be a consideration in any damage balance schemes in COH

 

Contrary to what people seem to intuitively feel or wish to be the case.

 

The original formula was entirely recharge based.  Your 8 second recharge MA smash attack does the same as a 8 second recharge Ice Melee cold attack. 

 

There were some adjustments based on animation times, but those came later.  WM benefited here IIRC.

 

Fire Melee gets extra damage instead of stuns and KDs, etc.  But due to its DPAs its just not that great.   

 

Also, most damage sets are smashing or lethal.  It seems weird when one is singled out for being such.

 

[oedipus_tex]

I will say I personally dislike "combos," on any of the archetypes they've appeared. The only set where I think it works in an interesting way is Nature Affinity, where you can mostly ignore it. That's not to say those sets are bad, I'd just prefer existing sets not get those features. That's just my opinion though.

 

The teleport-attack in Savage Assault on the other hand I personally really, really enjoy. It makes Savage Assault feel reactive and like there is no break in the action. For all its flipping around and leaping into the air Martial Arts (and also the Super Reflexes set) feel tied to one spot. To me, it feels incongruous with comic books, where in most of the panels the character is performing flying kicks and punches with forward momentum. But again that may just be me. 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Bossk_Hogg]

28 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think the folks who dislike teleportation attacks should try Feral Leap before judging. Feral Leap doesn't require targeting the ground. You target an enemy, and when you execute the attack, teleport instantly in front of them. It allows for a very Scrapper-locky style. If you ever lose sight of a target you can leap to them instantly.

 

Martial Arts is a set that I think should have high mobility like that.

Yeah, savage leap is pretty awesome. I was worried it would be a ground reticle, and was delighted to see it wasnt on my stalker. Wouldnt mind that for Eagle Claw.  

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

It was in comparison to other sets that all have at least an aoe and a melee cone. Lots which can still do as much single target damage as MA as well at times.

Will mention that not all melee cones are created equal.  Many barely count as AOEs.   

 

Sadly some of the narrow ones also have the worst DPA.  

 

Some are really awesome.  Crowd Control.  Shockwave.  

 

 

[NNDeepdish]

24 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not using those exact words, no.  The term "lack of" generally means missing or a lack of something, which in the case of AoE and MA is false.  MA has an AoE with Dragons Tail, so saying it is "lacking AoE" is a bit of a misnomer.  It stands to reason that someone saying the set lacks AoE when it has an AoE in it, it would mean the person is looking for more AoE.  Not difficult to understand.

You'd think that but clearly it indeed is difficult to understand.

Yes, the person is obviously looking for more AoE. Your original comment attempts to induce the expectation that he wants the set to be "full of AoE."

 

I have no idea what your definition of "full of AoE" is, but it's your own opinion and was never expressed or defined by the individual you singled out.