question on blasters

[cparks70402]

everyone says blasters base damage is higher than brutes for example. is this the base damage of an attack? or something else? also i hear the word "multiplyer" is higher for blasters I dont really understand what that means?

[quixoteprog]

Follow this link, then scroll down about midway to "Damage Scale by Archetype"

 

Each AT had a damage scale for both ranged and melee attacks. Whenever a blaster uses a ranged attack the damage it does is multiplied by 1.125. A brute's ranged damage used to be multiplied by .5, now I think it is same as melee value .75.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage

[Snarky]

Every attack say things like high damage medium damage minor damage.  A blasters medium damage may do more damage than a Brutes high Damage. (Not crunching numbers here. Rough example). As was posted above this is due to Damage Multiplier ir Scalar for each AT. Then a Blaster also has access to more of the bigger damaging attacks almost always. Because that is ALL they do. Everything else is secondary at best. Brutes do great damage (not spectacular) but can also Tank. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

That wiki damage page has been posted in every single one of this guy's various posts regarding blaster damage. You'd think he'd read it at some point.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

A blasters medium damage may do more damage than a Brutes high Damage.

does that account for fury? or defiance? timewarp.. anyway..

 

The numbers below have surely been adjusted since 2012, yes?

 

Damage Scale by Archetype

The following table shows the melee and ranged damage scales for each archetype.

 

Heroes
Archetype	Melee	Range
Blaster	1.000	1.125
Controller	0.550	0.550
Defender	0.550	0.650
Scrapper	1.125	0.500
Tanker	0.800	0.500
Peacebringer	0.850	0.800
Bright Nova	N/A	1.200
White Dwarf	1.000	N/A
Warshade	0.850	0.800
Dark Nova	N/A	1.200
Black Dwarf	1.000	N/A
Pet	1.000	0.800

 

 

Villains
Archetype	Melee	Range
Corruptor	0.750	0.750
Dominator	1.050	0.950
Mastermind	0.550	0.550
Henchman 1	0.450	0.350
Henchman 2	0.550	0.450
Henchman 3	0.650	0.550
Brute	0.750	0.500
Stalker	1.000	0.600
Arachnos Soldier	1.000	1.000
Arachnos Widow	1.000	1.000
Pet	1.000	0.800

 

The Damage Scale (also referred to as damage scalar) is a form of comparing attacks across archetypes (usually at level 50). There is no actual game mechanic that makes use of the damage scales, but they are used in the assignment of damage values for powers. Damage scales are expressed as multipliers relative to Blaster melee damage, with Blaster melee being expressed as 1.000. For example, if a Blaster uses a melee attack (1.000) and does 50.0 damage, a Brute using the same melee attack (0.750) would do 37.5 (50.0 * 0.750) damage.

 

Notes:

• While the melee archetypes are assigned ranged damage scales, these scales are never used. Ranged attacks on melee archetypes use the melee damage scale.
• Temporary Powers use normalized scales that result in the same damage output regardless of which archetype is using them.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Troo

[siolfir]

The wiki page is also a simplification - I'm pretty sure I posted a link to the archived City of Data attribute modifier tables that show that melee_damage and ranged_damage aren't actually 1.0 and 0.75 for Blasters and Brutes respectively when he actually did a test to show Corruptors were doing more than Blasters by creating new level 1 characters.

 

But even the simplified version is too simplistic for actual in-game observations, where watching a Brute with 75-80% Fury hit a mob with a damage scale 1 attack is going to do a little more damage than a Blaster using their scale 1 attack simply because they have +250% damage in slotting and Fury while the Blaster is at probably around +125% with slotting and some level of Defiance. Blasters make up for that with better self-damage buffs and usually more AoEs with higher target caps.

 

0.75 (1 + 2.5) = 2.625

1.125 (1 + 1.25) = 2.53125

 

So you look at that and go "hey, the Brute's hitting harder than me" - which is true, but only part of the story.

 

So, to answer the questions in the OP (again):

4 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

everyone says blasters base damage is higher than brutes for example. is this the base damage of an attack? or something else? also i hear the word "multiplyer" is higher for blasters I dont really understand what that means?

Simplified answer: yes. This is the number that shows up (precalculated for you) in the in-game power information screens. That's not the full answer, but it's enough to understand.

 

Here's where the complicated answer begins. The "damage scale" of an attack is determined by formulas* and is part of the power; when you use it it multiplies the scale of the attack by the melee_damage or ranged_damage AT modifier for a character of that level, thus the term multiplier. Note that the attribute tables in the links are from archived data, and so do not include Sentinels and do not have updated numbers for Brutes (ranged_damage changed to match melee_damage) and Tankers (many changes, including both melee_damage and ranged_damage). You can also see the damage scales of the different attack sets for most of the powersets for most of the ATs starting here.

 

* - there are exceptions to the formulas, but the formulas can be found (with a couple of errors pointed out in the thread) here.

 

Edit: sniped by Troo, so edited out the extra junk about Blasters being baseline 1.0

Edited January 31, 2020 by siolfir

[Troo]

I like colors

[siolfir]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

While the melee archetypes are assigned ranged damage scales, these scales are never used. Ranged attacks on melee archetypes use the melee damage scale.

Untrue. It was true at the time of shutdown, though.

 

Brute and Tanker Epic/Patron Pool ranged powers now use the ranged damage modifier, which is why it was recently changed to match the melee modifier for those ATs. In addition, the ranged attacks in Sorcery and Force of Will also use the ranged modifiers.

 

Ranged attacks in melee damage powersets (Brute, Scrapper, and Stalker primaries, Tanker secondaries) use the melee damage modifier. Melee attacks (ie, PBAoEs) in ranged damage powersets (Blaster and Corruptor primaries, Defender secondaries) use the ranged modifiers.

Edited January 31, 2020 by siolfir
shuffling wording around

[Budo]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

I like colors

 

double colors. It's so beautiful!

 

From now on, any multi-line reply to my posts must contain color-coordinated references in the response. Thank you all for your cooperation in this matter. 

[Troo]

@soilfir you realize you're now arguing with the https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage page..

[Haijinx]

Isn't this your third variation of this thread?

 

 

[siolfir]

Just now, Troo said:

@soilfir you realize you're now arguing with the https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage page..

Check the note after my edit, and keep in mind that Paragonwiki does not include any patches from Homecoming. Also, it's i before o.

[siolfir]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Isn't this your third variation of this thread?

 

 

4th, I think, if you're talking about Blaster damage comparisons, but the first 3 were relative to Corruptors so we're moving on to different ATs now.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

@soilfir you realize you're now arguing with the https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage page..

Homecoming change as part of the Tanker patch.  The wiki would be old info.

[Troo]

The numbers below from the paragonwiki page have surely been adjusted since 2012, yes?

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

The numbers below from the paragonwiki page have surely been adjusted since 2012, yes?

Yes, specifically:

 

19 minutes ago, Troo said:

Damage Scale by Archetype

The following table shows the melee and ranged damage scales for each archetype.

 

Heroes
Archetype	Melee	Range
Blaster	1.000	1.125
Controller	0.550	0.550
Defender	0.550	0.650
Scrapper	1.125	0.500
Tanker	0.950	0.800
Peacebringer	0.850	0.800
Bright Nova	N/A	1.200
White Dwarf	1.000	N/A
Warshade	0.850	0.800
Dark Nova	N/A	1.200
Black Dwarf	1.000	N/A
Pet	1.000	0.800

 

 

Villains
Archetype	Melee	Range
Corruptor	0.750	0.750
Dominator	1.050	0.950
Mastermind	0.550	0.550
Henchman 1	0.450	0.350
Henchman 2	0.550	0.450
Henchman 3	0.650	0.550
Brute	0.750	0.750
Stalker	1.000	0.600
Arachnos Soldier	1.000	1.000
Arachnos Widow	1.000	1.000
Pet	1.000	0.800

 

The Damage Scale (also referred to as damage scalar) is a form of comparing attacks across archetypes (usually at level 50). There is no actual game mechanic that makes use of the damage scales as they pertain to an individual archetype, but they are used in the assignment of damage values for powers. Damage scales are expressed as multipliers relative to Blaster melee damage, with Blaster melee being expressed as 1.000. At level 50, this amounts to 55.610 points of damage. For example, if a Blaster uses a melee attack (1.000) and does 50.0 damage, a Brute using the same melee attack (0.750) would do 37.5 (50.0 * 0.750) damage.

 

Notes:

• While the melee archetypes are assigned ranged damage scales, these scales are never only used in pool powers. Ranged attacks on melee archetypes damage powersets use the melee damage scale.
• Temporary Powers use normalized scales that result in the same damage output regardless of which archetype is using them. Specifically, the melee_ones AT modifier.

 

There are other changes missing, but I never bothered to calculate the Sentinel damage scales so didn't want to fill them in.

[HelenCarnate]

All damage modifiers multiply only the base damage.  So if you have a base attack of 100 damage and you have a 100% damage bonus, you would do 200 damage.  If you pop a few reds and get another 100% more damage, that is still off the base damage so you do 300 damage. 

 

It should also be noted that recharge time also has an effect on damage.  Generally, the longer the base recharge, the more damage it does.  Blasters have several melee attacks that Brutes also have but many of them are on much longer timers which means the Blaster versions do much more damage than just the difference in damage scales. 

[Budo]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Yes, specifically:

 

 

There are other changes missing, but I never bothered to calculate the Sentinel damage scales so didn't want to fill them in.

 

You guys are killing it.

A+++