Make the origin power pools a separate pick (like Patron/Ancillary)

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I've already stated why - I want a fun travel power that doesn't need dipping into the other 4 pools. Whether or not that's a "good" reason is up to the reader.

Then take the power and accept the consequences. 

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Then take the power and accept the consequences. 

I already stated that I didn't want to do that - I want a fun travel power that doesn't need dipping into the other 4 pools.

[biostem]

Just now, Blackfeather said:

I already stated that I didn't want to do that - I want a fun travel power that doesn't need dipping into the other 4 pools.

That is a very selfish and juvenile position to take.  You need to think in terms of the greater scope of game balance and *not* further devaluing what are already fairly lenient power pick choices...

[Blackfeather]

Just now, biostem said:

That is a very selfish and juvenile position to take.  You need to think in terms of the greater scope of game balance and *not* further devaluing what are already fairly lenient power pick choices...

Could you explain how this position is selfish and juvenile?

[biostem]

Just now, Blackfeather said:

Could you explain how this position is selfish and juvenile?

Selfish because YOU want the change for your own reasons without consideration of such a change's impact on the rest of the game.  Juvenile because you want those changes solely so you can "have fun", (again without care for the impact of these changes).

[Blackfeather]

Just now, biostem said:

Selfish because YOU want the change for your own reasons without consideration of such a change's impact on the rest of the game.  Juvenile because you want those changes solely so you can "have fun", (again without care for the impact of these changes).

How do you think this change would impact the rest of the game?

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Blackfeather said:

How do you think this change would impact the rest of the game?

How wouldn't it?

[Blackfeather]

Just now, biostem said:

How wouldn't it?

I'm interested in seeing your stance on how it would, because I don't think it does.

[biostem]

Just now, Blackfeather said:

I'm interested in seeing your stance on how it would, because I don't think it does.

You proposed the change that this whole thread centers around.  Defend your position or abandon it.

[Blackfeather]

Just now, biostem said:

You proposed the change that this whole thread centers around.  Defend your position or abandon it.

I've already explained my reasoning, as said previously.

[Leogunner]

My question is, what other pools did you take?

 

Personally speaking, I tend to try to "specialize" my different characters with different pools or pool combos.  I haven't yet had to push the envelope to include more than 3 though.  But at the same time, I usually sacrifice general effectiveness for it (things like toughness or hasten).

 

My question would be what are you sacrificing and do you feel it's unjust.  Personally speaking, I would be all for having the option to have an inherent pool that you don't have to sacrifice for BUT you're limited to that inherent pool and none others besides the epic/patron pool.  Basically, it'd be choosing between inherent Fitness or inherent [choose your own pool].

 

Increasing the amount of pools you can pick, like I said, I'm unsure how I feel about it.  

[Blackfeather]

Well for example, I'll take the standard Leaping, Flight, Speed and Fighting, giving me a choice of Fly/Super Jump/Super Speed as a travel power. Mystic Flight would be nice to have instead though, instead of Fly.

[MunkiLord]

59 minutes ago, biostem said:

So restricting other choices is fine, so long as those you find fun aren't.  Seems legit!

That's an extremely disingenuous way to phrase it. People would have the same choices as the OP. Them not liking the choice is not restricting it. Some people like some choices, some don't. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

  

34 minutes ago, biostem said:

That is a very selfish and juvenile position to take.  You need to think in terms of the greater scope of game balance and *not* further devaluing what are already fairly lenient power pick choices...

Again, extremely disingenuous. You only care about game balance because you play this game, therefore you only care because you get something out of it. So you are every bit as selfish. If you didn't play this game, you wouldn't be here because you wouldn't care. All that being said, there is nothing wrong with that, people should play games only if they get something out of it. Generally that's the enjoyment of the game itself, but it could be some other motivation like spending time with a loved one that happens to enjoy a game.

 

[MunkiLord]

On 2/2/2020 at 5:50 PM, Blackfeather said:

With Force of Will and Sorcery released, I imagine that the Natural/Science/Technology power pools will eventually become a thing in due time. However, with only four power pools, it can be quite difficult fitting them in, even if it's only for a more thematic travel power - this is the main reason I thought of this.

 

As such, I think it'd make sense to have these power pools as their own separate selection - you'd only be able choose from one, just like the Ancillary/Patron power pools, leaving the other four pools available for other things.

 

This would leave characters with the ability to have six different power pools in total:

• The four "regular" ones that cover all the other pools
• An "origin" power pool
• An "ancillary/patron" power pool

Thoughts? Feedback? Would love to hear opinions on this!

I personally like the idea. I'd love to be able to take Mighty Leap instead of Super Jump on a tight build. Or maybe throw in Mystic Flight for shits and giggles on occasion. 

 

Hell, if the self righteous people are really that worried about the nonsense they are spouting when they oppose you, I'd also be fine with the extra pool being restricted to just the travel power.

[biostem]

Just now, MunkiLord said:

That's an extremely disingenuous way to phrase it. People would have the same choices as the OP. Them not liking the choice is not restricting it. Some people like some choices, some don't. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

  

Again, extremely disingenuous. You only care about game balance because you play this game, therefore you only care because you get something out of it. So you are every bit as selfish. If you didn't play this game, you wouldn't be here because you wouldn't care. All that being said, there is nothing wrong with that, people should play games only if they get something out of it. Generally that's the enjoyment of the game itself, but it could be some other motivation like spending time with a loved one that happens to enjoy a game.

 

So not permitting homosexuals to marry is fine because they had the same access to marriage as everyone else, (i.e. to a person of the opposite sex)?  The OP clearly wants access to the origin power pool in addition to 4 other choices specifically because they don't want to give up any of those 4 other picks.  If *not* wanting a major change to be made because its proponent cannot look beyond their own interests is selfish, then I suppose I am selfish.  It doesn't change the fact that the OP has not provided a cogent defense of their position besides "it's fun".

[Saiyajinzoningen]

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

So not permitting homosexuals to marry is fine because they had the same access to marriage as everyone else, (i.e. to a person of the opposite sex)?  The OP clearly wants access to the origin power pool in addition to 4 other choices specifically because they don't want to give up any of those 4 other picks.  If *not* wanting a major change to be made because its proponent cannot look beyond their own interests is selfish, then I suppose I am selfish.  It doesn't change the fact that the OP has not provided a cogent defense of their position besides "it's fun".

dude seriously? the entire point of playing is FUN. That is enough of a reason. Also i like this idea, more options are always nice. If you don't like this then you can still build the traditional way it only impacts players if they want it to. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Saiyajinzoningen

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

dude seriously? the entire point of playing is FUN. That is enough of a reason. Also i like this idea, more options are always nice. If you don't like this then you can still build the traditional way it only impacts players if they want it to. 

More options FOR SOME PEOPLE OR PLAYSTYLES, but not for others.  Why not just open it up to 5 power pools?  Why not just limit it to 4 power pools like we have now?  Instead of actually having a cost associated with making a choice, you just want what you want with no thought of cost or consequence.   

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I agree that game balance is incredibly important. And you have done a splendid job explaining WHY you think this would be bad. But, you haven't explained HOW. how would this change unbalance things? The OP explained WHAT he wanted, WHY he wanted it and HOW it would work. Can you be courteous enough to do the same?

[Monos King]

58 minutes ago, biostem said:

More options FOR SOME PEOPLE OR PLAYSTYLES, but not for others.  Why not just open it up to 5 power pools?  Why not just limit it to 4 power pools like we have now?  Instead of actually having a cost associated with making a choice, you just want what you want with no thought of cost or consequence.   

"We shouldn't try to help anyone if we can't help everyone."

"Having fun in a game is secondary to obediently accepting the game design, even if it makes things less fun for you."

 

I don't like saying this, but I don't think anyone should pay you any mind. Your approach is aggressive and, more troublingly, accusatory and you can't seem to understand the inherent flaws in what your saying. Do you really think the OP is out to limit other players, or simply bypass the games design for his benefit alone? Is it limiting to one side to be given a new option, that they may or may not benefit from?

"Let's give Mercenaries a new shield! I think that would be helpful!"

"No guy, I don't want a shield, you're being selfish and narrow minded."

That's you right now. The only one being self centered is you. You're dismissing the value it might have to various other people because it doesn't personally advantage yourself.

He had an idea he thought would be cool, and suggested it as the forums are literally here for; because other players might agree. The reason the forums exist is to gather players that might agree. If people agree and discuss positively, it isn't a self-rewarding effort. Nothing here was juvenile.

 

It's ok to disagree because you believe a suggestion will leave one side out, or effectively constrain them, but all you appear to be doing is undermining and reframing the point as an attempt at self-empowerment. That's clearly not what's going on. Show how this will be trouble. Counter someone's argument.

 

And don't assign him the duty to consider the entire game scope just for a suggestion, that's part of the discussion process! Come on now.

Edited February 4, 2020 by monos1

[Pbuckley818]

I am mostly against this as I feel it would essentially let people pick a travel Power Pool without actually having to sacrifice anything. Mighty Leap, and Sorcerous Flight will both become EVEN more ubiquitous as travel powers, while people will be able to freely grab whatever they like for everything else. No hard decisions having to have been made. Just yet more power creep. Personally, I don't like this. But I suppose it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Pbuckley818

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, monos1 said:

"We shouldn't try to help anyone if we can't help everyone."

As I have already stated, why not just allow everyone access to 5 power pools?  Why not allow players to pick more than 1 origin power pool?  Never adequately answered.

 

9 minutes ago, monos1 said:

"Having fun in a game is secondary to obediently accepting the game design, even if it makes things less fun for you."

Nice strawman.  Choosing what powers to take or not to take is already a decision with very little weight.  Such choices shouldn't be made even less impactful to a character.

 

11 minutes ago, monos1 said:

I don't like saying this, but I don't think anyone should pay you any mind. Your approach is aggressive and, more troublingly, accusatory and you can't seem to understand the inherent flaws in what your saying. Do you really think the OP is out to limit other players, or simply bypass the games design for his benefit alone? Is it limiting to one side to be given a new option, that they may or may not benefit from?

The OP has already admitted that they specifically want this change because they have taken the current max of 4 power pools, and is unwilling to compromise or rethink their build "because it's fun".  As I stated before, they don't want everyone to be able to take 5 power pool picks, they specifically want to allow 4 power pools and the origin pool BECAUSE a power they want, beyond the other 4 pools, exists in said origin power pool.

 

14 minutes ago, monos1 said:

"Let's give Mercenaries a new shield! I think that would be helpful!"

"No guy, I don't want a shield, you're being selfish and narrow minded."

That's you right now. The only one being self centered is you. You're dismissing the value it might have to various other people because it doesn't personally advantage yourself.

He had an idea he thought would be cool, and suggested it as the forums are literally here for; because other players might agree. The reason the forums exist is to gather players that might agree. If people agree and discuss positively, it isn't a self-rewarding effort. Nothing here was juvenile.

Changing a power within a set != changing how many power pools you have access to.  Not only are you unable to accurately represent my stance, you fail to even knock down the strawman you've constructed.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Lets not attack one another or this thread will get locked.

 

Your 5 power pools suggestions is just as valid as the OP's

 

Tbh it doesnt matter to me one way or the other. I like both suggestions. Again more options are always nice.

[Monos King]

51 minutes ago, biostem said:

As I have already stated, why not just allow everyone access to 5 power pools?  Why not allow players to pick more than 1 origin power pool?  Never adequately answered.

Oh I'm not for the notion of the origin pool addition; if not for your comments I would've been here leaning against it. You aren't articulating your point, because the meaning is lost in your shaky accusations. It's pretty evident. I am addressing the nature and execution of your argument rather than the argument itself. Because it is counter productive.

 

51 minutes ago, biostem said:

Nice strawman.  Choosing what powers to take or not to take is already a decision with very little weight.  Such choices shouldn't be made even less impactful to a character.

What is "impact to the character" if not an element of game design? That's just synonymous with consequences of selection, which you yourself said earlier. It's apart of game design to make certain limitations, and you are saying that process is automatically superior to the fun element of the game. I will remind you I am not supportive of this change,  and that I am all about evaluating the balance between enjoyment and challenge, but this is no straw man. You really did say that. 

 

51 minutes ago, biostem said:

Changing a power within a set != changing how many power pools you have access to. 

Of course not. It was an analogy. Addressing the nature of your argument . You suggested he was being selfish for his suggestion to make a change he thought would be beneficial, when you were being selfish by saying it wouldn't fly because it "restricted" you. I didn't realize you suggested a general increase to 5 pools, but you understand what my problem is here don't you? 

Edited February 4, 2020 by monos1

[Monos King]

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

So attacking the person and not the argument, then?  Seems you are the one employing "shaky accusations"...

Hahaha I cannot see how. It seems clear surveying the responses to your comments that your method has been inviting nothing but conflict. You shouldn't see it as an attack as much as an attempt at reproach, and I hope you don't actually see it so aggressively. I haven't made anything other than observations and suggestions. 

 

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

You said "Having fun in a game is secondary to obediently accepting the game design, even if it makes things less fun for you.", which is clearly strawmanning my position.  Having some consequence to what powers you pick and when is part of what makes the game fun.  Why not just allow total freeform character design?  Why not just allow anyone to pick whatever they want?  Obviously you are against this, but why?  If people find that fun, who are you or I to get in their way, right?

Come on now. I literally prefaced it by saying that the forums are used to evaluate the balance between enjoyment and challenge. I didn't leave that statement open to such a slippery slope.

 

You called him selfish, you dismissed his opinion off of said accusations, and deemed it all juvenile. Your actual position would have been that of the impact argument, "Such choices shouldn't be made even less impactful to the character". I won't continue here because we clearly agree with each other, but all you do when executing points in this invidious manner is invite conflict, obfuscate your point, and weigh down consideration of said point. Me attending to you here is precisely because I could already see the unfavorable reactions, which halt persuasion and compromise. You can't get through to anyone like that. If you think it isn't my place to reprimand you so, that's fine, but if it inadvertently gets people riled up against your point you shouldn't be surprised.

Edited February 4, 2020 by monos1

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, monos1 said:

Your actual position would have been that of the impact argument, "Such choices shouldn't be made even less impactful to the character"

Which it was;  After asking for some clarification, I said:  "They *are* "another pool selectable from the other 4".  I just don't think that you should be able to have 5 total power pools to pick from.  Taking any power should come with an opportunity cost - and allowing even more selections just lessens that.  Why should I be able to take speed, fighting, leadership, leaping and sorcery, but not sorcery & force of will?"  Reread the thread.