Melee in PvP

[Killawar]

On 5/15/2019 at 6:53 PM, Dan Petro said:

What more do you honestly want? Doms, Corrs, Stalkers, Blasters, Defenders, a few controllers all have very strong builds in PvP from 1 v 1's to 8 v 8's. 

Because rather than a select few builds among massive amounts of other combos, just about every build worked.

 

If you're trying to put it off like Issue 13 is palatable then you're really on your own. 

[Killawar]

On 7/17/2019 at 4:42 PM, hp said:

Has been the case in this game since forever and will always be probably.

Pre-i13 melee weren't "just taunt bots". Not by a long shot. 

[Dan Petro]

41 minutes ago, Killawar said:

Because rather than a select few builds among massive amounts of other combos, just about every build worked.

 

If you're trying to put it off like Issue 13 is palatable then you're really on your own. 

  Psn, Nature, Pain, Emp, FF, Kin, TA all have a place in current PVP Meta.  Blaster primaries that work include Ice, Dark, Psi, Beam, secondaries are Plant, TA and EM. Melee sets like Rad, Psy, and SS all work well.  Invul, Bio, EA, Regen are top picks for secondaries.  

 

Its funny because I remember it was Ice/EM and then Fire/EM as your only blaster choices for a long time until Psi came around and for melee it was pretty much EM pre ET nerf, then SS and that was about it unless you were fightclubbing.

 

Support sets did more like Kin/Sonic/etc but that was also the time of 30 second cages which was fun and engaging gameplay.  

 

i13 has plenty of flaws, i12 just had different ones.  The game has advanced so far beyond that point with so much power proliferation there would be so many combo's to play or IO's to build that would just shatter any sense of balance if there was ever an attempt at a reversion. A Mind/Psn controller with hold procs will literally run anyone out of BF's in under 2 minutes under the old mez system rules.  

[vegetableknife]

6 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

  Psn, Nature, Pain, Emp, FF, Kin, TA all have a place in current PVP Meta.  Blaster primaries that work include Ice, Dark, Psi, Beam, Water secondaries are Plant, TA, Martial and EM. Melee sets like Rad, Psy, and SS all work well.  Invul, Bio, EA, Regen are top picks for secondaries.  

 

Its funny because I remember it was Ice/EM and then Fire/EM as your only blaster choices for a long time until Psi came around and for melee it was pretty much EM pre ET nerf, then SS and that was about it unless you were fightclubbing.

 

Support sets did more like Kin/Sonic/etc but that was also the time of 30 second cages which was fun and engaging gameplay.  

 

i13 has plenty of flaws, i12 just had different ones.  The game has advanced so far beyond that point with so much power proliferation there would be so many combo's to play or IO's to build that would just shatter any sense of balance if there was ever an attempt at a reversion. A Mind/Psn controller with hold procs will literally run anyone out of BF's in under 2 minutes under the old mez system rules.  

Fixxxxed

[MJB]

decided to give melee a try before having an opinion here, so here is me doing kickball on my tanker for 3 hours

 

 

 

this might be my favourite kickball toon tbh, was a lot of fun

[Killawar]

On 8/20/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dan Petro said:

Psn, Nature, Pain, Emp, FF, Kin, TA all have a place in current PVP Meta.  Blaster primaries that work include Ice, Dark, Psi, Beam, secondaries are Plant, TA and EM. Melee sets like Rad, Psy, and SS all work well.  Invul, Bio, EA, Regen are top picks for secondaries.  

And the list of what was good before issue 13 dwarfs this. 

 

On 8/20/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dan Petro said:

Its funny because I remember it was Ice/EM and then Fire/EM as your only blaster choices for a long time until Psi came around and for melee it was pretty much EM pre ET nerf, then SS and that was about it unless you were fightclubbing.

This is just flat-out incorrect in terms of melee fight clubs. DM did insane ST. If you're talking tanks, there were people running Stone Melee for the acro-breaking mag hold back when that was a magnitude protection in PvP. The only one that was fairly sub-par was Ice Melee, and you could still make that work if you wanted.

 

The problem with blasters back then wasn't PvP, it was that blasters weren't good in general. EM did damage, the other secondaries offered nothing. You're saying blasters being sub-par was a pvp problem when it was a general problem with blasters. 

On 8/20/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dan Petro said:

Support sets did more like Kin/Sonic/etc but that was also the time of 30 second cages which was fun and engaging gameplay.  

It sounds like some people didn't know what Break Frees were.

Drain specs were fantastic back then. You brought around an electric defender simply because Ice Armor had no drain resistance and most people didn't slot out Glacial Armor due to most damage types carrying a S/L delivery tag - which Electric did not. Same with Radiation - both primary and secondary.

 

On 8/20/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dan Petro said:

i13 has plenty of flaws, i12 just had different ones.

The flaws you mentioned:

 

"CC". Solution: What are break frees? Clarion now too.

"Only some were viable." Solution: Actually incorrect. Most things were viable in PvP, there was a ton of diversity. The fact that you even try to bring up that subject pretty much tells me you're either SJW'ing a bad issue or that you really don't know what you're talking about. Pre-13 diversity >>>>>>>>>>>> I-13 diversity. 

On 8/20/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dan Petro said:

The game has advanced so far beyond that point with so much power proliferation there would be so many combo's to play or IO's to build that would just shatter any sense of balance if there was ever an attempt at a reversion

This is flat-out incorrect. Do you really think Scrappers with Ice Armor would break the game? It hasn't, and it won't.

If you want to talk about something that "breaks the game" in terms of PvP then I invite you to look at the Destiny slots. Easy fix? Make them a 5min CD in PvP.

Proliferation doesn't break PvP.

The game is broken in terms of PVP now. You see Corruptors, Defenders, and the occasional stalker/blaster. 

That's it.

Pre-13? These problems didn't exist.

 

And if you're gonna say "Well, X class would run you out of BF's in under two minutes!" then it looks like there's your clock to kill them. And, again, Clarion exists now. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Killawar

[Banana Man]

Things being "viable" or "having a place" is based on circumstance more than anything. Those are really vague terms. 

 

Certain teams in the pre-i13 system could have rolled almost everyone else running blasters with randomized power-sets. But if you weren't running ice blast until issue 8, fire blast after that, or psi blast when it came out, you were hindering yourself, because those sets were outright the best.

 

Those "good teams" could have run no blasters at all, instead electing to run peacebringers, and still beat 99% of the player base. But if you were running kheldians, you were hindering yourself. If you were running scrappers and tanks, you were hindering yourself. If you were running anything other than controllers, defenders, and blasters, you were typically hindering yourself. Just because it works against certain people doesn't mean it's good.

 

Blaster secondaries other than /em were very usable, especially in duels, where things like devices, ice, and even elec were generally better than /em... I saw people have varying degrees of success on a multitude of builds across tons of ATs... but if you were dueling on anything that wasn't /rad, /cold, or mind/fire, you were going to lose to someone good playing those more often than not. 

 

One thing people don't often consider about the old pvp system is the combination of A: how much longer it usually took to level, accolade, and slot out characters; and B: how much harder it was to get accurate information about what was good and how to play it.

 

Back then if you played something sub-optimal, you usually just stuck with it for a long time and made it work, and any advice came from your server's local RV population. Now, people get advice on a PvP discord full of veteran players and often have new builds level 50 and ready to go the next day. You did see more build diversity in the old system, but there is a very good chance that most of it was due to so many people playing sub-optimal builds (or playing optimal builds sub-optimally), allowing other sub-optimal builds to appear better than they actually were.

 

For the record, I do like the pre-i13 system better. I think with the right fixes that system could be made to work again. Just "reverting back" right now would introduce many variables that we don't have enough data to make very educated guesses about (incarnates, sentinels), and would also introduce a ton of things that break the game. In i12 rules I could literally do 3-5000 damage in a 1 second window on a titan weapon/fire scrapper, about a third of which would be un-resisted. 

 

[Glacier Peak]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:02 PM, Killawar said:

Do you really think Scrappers with Ice Armor would break the game? It hasn't, and it won't.

PvP builds both past (on live) and current gain traction because of a combination of popularity, convenience and specificity. Popularity in the form of flavor of the month builds that proliferate zones, arena and fight clubbing. It is a logical decision for someone to roll a character that other people have demonstrated has utility in action. Attaining that level of competency with the build may vary however, and this may have the unintended effect of slowing down innovation. The convenience of a build comes from a combination of viewing PvP builds before the character is created and knowing the outcome ahead of time - imagine leveling a character to 50, attaining and outfitting 500+ million in IOs, accolades, Incarnates, etc. only to realize that the build wasn't what you thought it was. A lot of people choose that convenience over the trial and error method. Lastly the specificity of a build plays a huge role in its utility - taking pool powers like leadership benefit team environments in zones and arena, but offer minimal solo player benefit when compared to IO set bonuses (I would say Tactics benefits solo players when slotted with +Perc) - you can't use vengeance without a teammate. 

 

Now that the game is not as much of a time-sink (1-50 in 3 hours, Inf is easier to attain, incarnates easier to attain, etc.), as well as trying out new builds on the Beta server or private server ahead of time, and having a PvP community that is very supportive to new players goes a long way in making the game playable.

 

Lastly, I wanted to point out that I have fun when I play my melee character!

Edited August 24, 2019 by Glacier Peak
Can't use vengeance *without* a teammate.

[Dan Petro]

19 hours ago, Killawar said:

And the list of what was good before issue 13 dwarfs this. 

 

This is just flat-out incorrect in terms of melee fight clubs. DM did insane ST. If you're talking tanks, there were people running Stone Melee for the acro-breaking mag hold back when that was a magnitude protection in PvP. The only one that was fairly sub-par was Ice Melee, and you could still make that work if you wanted.

 

The problem with blasters back then wasn't PvP, it was that blasters weren't good in general. EM did damage, the other secondaries offered nothing. You're saying blasters being sub-par was a pvp problem when it was a general problem with blasters. 

It sounds like some people didn't know what Break Frees were.

Drain specs were fantastic back then. You brought around an electric defender simply because Ice Armor had no drain resistance and most people didn't slot out Glacial Armor due to most damage types carrying a S/L delivery tag - which Electric did not. Same with Radiation - both primary and secondary.

 

The flaws you mentioned:

 

"CC". Solution: What are break frees? Clarion now too.

"Only some were viable." Solution: Actually incorrect. Most things were viable in PvP, there was a ton of diversity. The fact that you even try to bring up that subject pretty much tells me you're either SJW'ing a bad issue or that you really don't know what you're talking about. Pre-13 diversity >>>>>>>>>>>> I-13 diversity. 

This is flat-out incorrect. Do you really think Scrappers with Ice Armor would break the game? It hasn't, and it won't.

If you want to talk about something that "breaks the game" in terms of PvP then I invite you to look at the Destiny slots. Easy fix? Make them a 5min CD in PvP.

Proliferation doesn't break PvP.

The game is broken in terms of PVP now. You see Corruptors, Defenders, and the occasional stalker/blaster. 

That's it.

Pre-13? These problems didn't exist.

 

And if you're gonna say "Well, X class would run you out of BF's in under two minutes!" then it looks like there's your clock to kill them. And, again, Clarion exists now. 

I have no idea who you are, but yikes dude.  I don't think we played the same game.   Unless you are confusing good players on bad builds, beating bad players who didn't know what they were doing (because that was like 60 + % of the PvP on live pre i12)  The best example of this was Aura on his AR/Elec shredding a bunch of randoms with full auto.  Ar/Elec wasn't good, it was hilariously bad but people didn't know what they were doing.

 

In zones and in arena right now you see : Blasters, Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, Sentinels, Stalkers, VEATs, Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes, and masterminds.   What you don't see are Khelds, Dominators for the most part because they are kind of second rate blasters atm and that is literally it.  If you are someone who is active in PvP on homecoming you'd know/see this.  If you are just someone who is looking at the flawed i12 system through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia then you are always going to be disappointed.  

[Killawar]

14 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

PvP builds both past (on live) and current gain traction because of a combination of popularity, convenience and specificity. Popularity in the form of flavor of the month builds that proliferate zones, arena and fight clubbing. It is a logical decision for someone to roll a character that other people have demonstrated has utility in action. Attaining that level of competency with the build may vary however, and this may have the unintended effect of slowing down innovation. 

You seem to forget in your example that build X will have mechanics that counter it. When more power choices are viable (pre-13) then the problem solves itself. 

 

14 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

The convenience of a build comes from a combination of viewing PvP builds before the character is created and knowing the outcome ahead of time - imagine leveling a character to 50, attaining and outfitting 500+ million in IOs, accolades, Incarnates, etc. only to realize that the build wasn't what you thought it was

This is more of a problem in, again, issue 13, where there are very few builds - especially by comparison - that someone can pull off. Once again issue 13 is the problem. 

 

14 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

A lot of people choose that convenience over the trial and error method.

Because, these days especially, you are more than likely to fail at a build you try out yourself. Why? Because PvP does not work like the other aspects of the game - at all, which is yet another example of issue 13's failure. Main game? Most - if not all - things can and do work. It used to be much closer to that way in PvP prior to issue 13. All of the problems you're stating - trial and error, diversity, a meta - were much less of a problem prior to issue 13. 

 

14 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Now that the game is not as much of a time-sink (1-50 in 3 hours, Inf is easier to attain, incarnates easier to attain, etc.), as well as trying out new builds on the Beta server or private server ahead of time, and having a PvP community that is very supportive to new players goes a long way in making the game playable.

 

This would be far more useful if the game didn't have nearly as hard of a rock-solid meta as it does now. 

 

14 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Lastly, I wanted to point out that I have fun when I play my melee character!

Then you must be a unicorn, because most people don't find taunt botting fun. 

 

10 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

I have no idea who you are, but yikes dude.  I don't think we played the same game. 

Coming from someone supportive of issue 13, clearly you did not. 

 

10 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

 Unless you are confusing good players on bad builds, beating bad players who didn't know what they were doing (because that was like 60 + % of the PvP on live pre i12) 

This is basically all games in general. The ones that knew how to play the game also had their "off-meta" characters - which still worked. To claim that all people who were good played all meta things is flat-out incorrect. Most people who were good could play anything they wanted - make anything work - and they did, hence why they were good at the game. 

 

10 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

In zones and in arena right now you see : Blasters, Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, Sentinels, Stalkers, VEATs, Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes, and masterminds. 

Rofl. Inaccurate. Majority are corrs and defs. Scraps, blasts, sents are up there. The others are unicorns. And besides, didn't you just say that most people were bad? What's to make that statistic any different now? We know melee aren't in a good spot, so what's to stop me from strawmanning and saying that the people who melee are bad?

 

Look at kickballs. All ranged. 

11 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

If you are someone who is active in PvP on homecoming you'd know/see this.  If you are just someone who is looking at the flawed i12 system through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia then you are always going to be disappointed.  

< Says someone is looking through rose tinted goggles yet supports issue-13's horrendously inferior system. 

 

Party out in zones and you see stalkers/corrs/defs/sent occasional scrap. Ranged > Melee, and yet you seem to think there's more diversity than there was.

 

Back in the day you'd see just about every AT in zone pvp. Even on the lower-pop servers there were far more people in one given zone than the entirety of the HC's pvp zones combined.

 

Just about everyone - even the 'good players' - quit after i-13.

 

I played a game where tankers didn't get the same resistances that a corruptor did.

 

You play a game where one of the hardest hitting melee abilities is Flurry.

 

Who's rose-tinting again? 

[barrier]

Hey, Killa, remember the test leagues from pre-i13? I mean the mixed ones with drafted teams (I ran one of those teams once).

 

Can you honestly find a single villain AT that would have been found in an optimal mixed team? Let me clue you in: None. Not a single one.

 

That's not the case in the current state of play.

 

We are pretty much at the height of build diversity in KBs. The only time I remember more diverse play was i14 or so when the new meta was falling in place.

 

Also, if I were lining up a vill team right now, my team comp would be quite a bit more varied than the standard fortunata jump team from i12. I dare you to argue that a fort jump team is optimal on i24.

 

You're way off base.

Edited August 24, 2019 by barrier

[Glacier Peak]

8 hours ago, Killawar said:

You seem to forget in your example that build X will have mechanics that counter it. When more power choices are viable (pre-13) then the problem solves itself. 

 

This is more of a problem in, again, issue 13, where there are very few builds - especially by comparison - that someone can pull off. Once again issue 13 is the problem. 

 

Because, these days especially, you are more than likely to fail at a build you try out yourself. Why? Because PvP does not work like the other aspects of the game - at all, which is yet another example of issue 13's failure. Main game? Most - if not all - things can and do work. It used to be much closer to that way in PvP prior to issue 13. All of the problems you're stating - trial and error, diversity, a meta - were much less of a problem prior to issue 13. 

 

This would be far more useful if the game didn't have nearly as hard of a rock-solid meta as it does now. 

 

Then you must be a unicorn, because most people don't find taunt botting fun. 

 

Coming from someone supportive of issue 13, clearly you did not. 

 

This is basically all games in general. The ones that knew how to play the game also had their "off-meta" characters - which still worked. To claim that all people who were good played all meta things is flat-out incorrect. Most people who were good could play anything they wanted - make anything work - and they did, hence why they were good at the game. 

 

Rofl. Inaccurate. Majority are corrs and defs. Scraps, blasts, sents are up there. The others are unicorns. And besides, didn't you just say that most people were bad? What's to make that statistic any different now? We know melee aren't in a good spot, so what's to stop me from strawmanning and saying that the people who melee are bad?

 

Look at kickballs. All ranged. 

< Says someone is looking through rose tinted goggles yet supports issue-13's horrendously inferior system. 

 

Party out in zones and you see stalkers/corrs/defs/sent occasional scrap. Ranged > Melee, and yet you seem to think there's more diversity than there was.

 

Back in the day you'd see just about every AT in zone pvp. Even on the lower-pop servers there were far more people in one given zone than the entirety of the HC's pvp zones combined.

 

Just about everyone - even the 'good players' - quit after i-13.

 

I played a game where tankers didn't get the same resistances that a corruptor did.

 

You play a game where one of the hardest hitting melee abilities is Flurry.

 

Who's rose-tinting again? 

Killawar, I don't know much about you besides you're disdain for everything that is counter to your opinions, but if you don't like the game meta don't play. It doesn't sound like you're having fun. 

[vegetableknife]

There's already stalker and tanker vids so what I think he needs is...

 

SCRAPPER PVP VIDEOS!!

 

#Odins

[Iron Alex]

THE Original poster is right though... prior to i13 doms and blaster were dangerous and can still kill tanks and other melee toons... but hit one with knockout blow.. Or even golden dragonfly... or when fire came to scraps it was over... most were scratching for life. Outside a dom/fortunata perma mezzing you to death... or old blaster defiance getting some luck shots in... Melee toons still were very, very viable. And didn’t need webs... after i13 all melee toons became tank bots... except, a few that max out hp and hit hard... i.e. kinetic melee on scraps for the first couple of weeks, and also stalkers... 

 

However DR did bring up a lot of builds that were not even thinkable before i13.

 

The devs tried to fix this with travel power suppressant, but that just made game-play annoying... 

 

These new devs corrected that prob but still need to balance the game with either a boost to melee dmg except assassin strike. Or give all melee powers a chance to anchor. A player for a couple of secs... so yeah if you get caught that’s you... 

 

But balancing is definitely required... especially since avg blasters are now tanks with laser beams lol...

[Smoke Signal]

Aww. He stopped playing. 😞 I love it when people keep talking and talking and talking like they have any idea what they're talking about, refusing to accept information from more informed and experienced players who would be more than happy to help someone acclimate to the way pvp is now.. the only time that actually matters.. now.. and find a place in it where they're enjoying themselves and being competitive, and just keep strutting around thinking they're making ONE! TWO! knockout comments to the awe and wonderment of all.

 

It's hilarious.

[macskull]

On 8/25/2019 at 4:17 PM, Iron Alex said:

THE Original poster is right though... prior to i13 doms and blaster were dangerous and can still kill tanks and other melee toons... but hit one with knockout blow.. Or even golden dragonfly... or when fire came to scraps it was over... most were scratching for life. Outside a dom/fortunata perma mezzing you to death... or old blaster defiance getting some luck shots in... Melee toons still were very, very viable. And didn’t need webs... after i13 all melee toons became tank bots... except, a few that max out hp and hit hard... i.e. kinetic melee on scraps for the first couple of weeks, and also stalkers... 

 

However DR did bring up a lot of builds that were not even thinkable before i13.

 

The devs tried to fix this with travel power suppressant, but that just made game-play annoying... 

 

These new devs corrected that prob but still need to balance the game with either a boost to melee dmg except assassin strike. Or give all melee powers a chance to anchor. A player for a couple of secs... so yeah if you get caught that’s you... 

 

But balancing is definitely required... especially since avg blasters are now tanks with laser beams lol...

Melee does not need a damage buff. A correctly-built melee character can be essentially unkillable even with multiple people attacking it.

[Dan Petro]

On 8/28/2019 at 11:17 PM, macskull said:

Melee does not need a damage buff. A correctly-built melee character can be essentially unkillable even with multiple people attacking it.

You strike Sub-Zero EpsiIon with your Crushing Uppercut for 413.38 points of smashing damage!
You knocked Sub-Zero EpsiIon from their feet!
You blast Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 53.58 points of bonus negative energy damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 78.45 points of bonus Lethal damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 78.45 points of bonus Smashing damage!
You blast Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 79.98 points of bonus negative energy damage!
Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 9.15 points of Toxic damage!
 

Your Fossilize crushes Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 354.5 points of smashing damage and reduce his Defense!
Your target takes 78.45 points of bonus smashing damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 78.45 points of bonus Lethal damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 80.54 points of bonus Toxic damage!
You blast Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 79.98 points of bonus negative energy damage!
Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 29.77 points of Toxic damage!

You gain 973 influence.
You receive a bounty of 5.00 reputation!
You gain 1.00 reputation. 

This is a Bio/Street Justice Tank, with Combat Readiness up, alpha only incarnate and no outside buffs.  It has Just over 5300 HP with its absorb shield up. 

 

Melee isn't bad.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dan Petro

[vegetableknife]

22 minutes ago, Dan Petro said:

You strike Sub-Zero EpsiIon with your Crushing Uppercut for 413.38 points of smashing damage!
You knocked Sub-Zero EpsiIon from their feet!
You blast Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 53.58 points of bonus negative energy damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 78.45 points of bonus Lethal damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 78.45 points of bonus Smashing damage!
You blast Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 79.98 points of bonus negative energy damage!
Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 9.15 points of Toxic damage!
 

Your Fossilize crushes Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 354.5 points of smashing damage and reduce his Defense!
Your target takes 78.45 points of bonus smashing damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 78.45 points of bonus Lethal damage!
You hit Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 80.54 points of bonus Toxic damage!
You blast Sub-Zero EpsiIon for 79.98 points of bonus negative energy damage!
Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 29.77 points of Toxic damage!

You gain 973 influence.
You receive a bounty of 5.00 reputation!
You gain 1.00 reputation. 

This is a Bio/Street Justice Tank, with Combat Readiness up, alpha only incarnate and no outside buffs.  It has Just over 5300 HP with its absorb shield up. 

 

Melee isn't bad.  

lol he's always in zone and that's why you can post this!

[Epsilon Assassin]

43 minutes ago, vegetableknife said:

lol he's always in zone and that's why you can post this!

He also neglects to mention the fact that I was held untoggled, fully poison debuffed and talking with a friend.

 

He also neglects to mention that he spent over an hour in RV trying that and I think that was the only kill he got in the entire time frame. Lib, one of the best players in the game, struggled to get any meaningful amount of kills. I think it says a *lot*.

 

Since he mentioned it, and he is one of scarce few people I actually respect in the community, I came here to add a bit of my input. Melee is bad. Bad is a relative term, meaning the worst. Honestly speaking, that's objectively true. Melee suffers from being inherently disadvantaged which naturally brings about a "Brain Drain" aspect. Good players will not generally hamstring themselves by playing a melee class. Thus due to a lack of "Good" players playing melee classes, they look much worse then they actually are. 

 

Melee probably needs buffs, changes or to be addressed, but there are a lot of issues. One of which being how incredibly difficult it is to kill a, say, Regen or Bio Tank/Brute/Scrapper. Particularly if they play defensive, slot defensive or build defensive. Let alone all three. Heal Debuffs don't work on them. Regen Debuffs do, but are of limited use in a burst meta like we have. Recharge slow debuffs are hilariously easy to slot into negligence if not complete non-factors. Until they address the durability of Bio, Regen and Melee in general it's very unlikely that Melee will see any major changes in the direction they need (Either straight damage outside fossilize, or a buff to apply more damage). As it stands, most Melee classes are already capable of more damage then they should be capable of considering their current durability. 

 

Melee is probably balanced. Melee is also probably bad. The two are not the same thing. Balance involves giving up one thing, for another. If you want more damage, you can't facetank 5 people and laugh it off like you currently can. If you want to facetank 5 people and laugh it off, you can't do damage. As it stands, most tankers can reliably do 800 damage (What Lib does to my controller in normal circumstances. ) or so. As it stands, Scrappers can semi-reliably do the same. Brutes are slightly behind tankers. That's far more then they should be doing considering their current durability. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[Dan Petro]

LOL you are so salty, I did it in the first 5 min I was there, you were running around attacking someone and not talking. Don't be embarrassed that you die in zones, everyone does. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dan Petro

[Epsilon Assassin]

3 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

LOL you are so salty, I did it in the first 5 min I was there, you were running around attacking someone and not talking. Don't be embarrassed that you die in zones, everyone does. 

All I did was point out what happened and mentioned that it was such a far outlier that it should never be taken seriously or considered in any manner beyond memes. In a fairly respectful manner at that. Your first response to me stating the correct context is to toss a random ad hominem at me.

 

On the other hand, I'm not. I die in zones all the time, I know it better then anyone because I play zones solo almost exclusively, while you basically never do. It would be different if you posted the other logs where you do 200 damage uppercuts, or get completely ignored until your team dies, then you die to the remaining 5-8 people. That's simply how melee is at the moment. Cherrypicking and then trying to claim that it's representative of a whole is dishonest. At best. 

 

I don't have anything against you, no emotion involved in this at all, but you were basically worthless on a tank. All you did was die. That isn't your fault, even if you think it is. Melee is just bad. Taunts are annoying, but not worth gimping yourself to doing a quarter of other classes damage. You can get damage, but never enough to be relevant. You can get webs, but never enough to be relevant. Melee has a niche, it's just a weak one that has no place in the current pvp meta. It needs attention and nothing you've shown or done has made any reasonable headway in showing that it isn't true. 

 

I know you think less of me because I don't come to KBs or Scrims, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor that I deserve to be attacked randomly for disagreeing with you. You're better then that. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[Dan Petro]

1 hour ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

All I did was point out what happened and mentioned that it was such a far outlier that it should never be taken seriously or considered in any manner beyond memes. In a fairly respectful manner at that. Your first response to me stating the correct context is to toss a random ad hominem at me.

 

On the other hand, I'm not. I die in zones all the time, I know it better then anyone because I play zones solo almost exclusively, while you basically never do. It would be different if you posted the other logs where you do 200 damage uppercuts, or get completely ignored until your team dies, then you die to the remaining 5-8 people. That's simply how melee is at the moment. Cherrypicking and then trying to claim that it's representative of a whole is dishonest. At best. 

 

I don't have anything against you, no emotion involved in this at all, but you were basically worthless on a tank. All you did was die. That isn't your fault, even if you think it is. Melee is just bad. Taunts are annoying, but not worth gimping yourself to doing a quarter of other classes damage. You can get damage, but never enough to be relevant. You can get webs, but never enough to be relevant. Melee has a niche, it's just a weak one that has no place in the current pvp meta. It needs attention and nothing you've shown or done has made any reasonable headway in showing that it isn't true. 

 

I know you think less of me because I don't come to KBs or Scrims, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor that I deserve to be attacked randomly for disagreeing with you. You're better then that. 

Seeing you describe your perspective of what happens in zones is absolutely hilarious but also incredibly warped.  I don't know where this massive chip on your shoulder is coming from but you aren't doing a very good job of hiding it.  😞

 

I don't really think more, or less or anything of you.  Beyond you being annoying on annoying characters (Which hey, CoH has this whole disruption role in PvP and that is fine), the only thing I've said about you positive or negative (to friends) is that you might be a decent arena PvP'er if you ever gave it a shot and put some time into it.  

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dan Petro

[Epsilon Assassin]

1 hour ago, Dan Petro said:

Seeing you describe your perspective of what happens in zones is absolutely hilarious but also incredibly warped.  I don't know where this massive chip on your shoulder is coming from but you aren't doing a very good job of hiding it. 

I don't have a massive chip on my shoulder. Everything I've said so far has been strictly to the subject matter at hand. You cherrypicked and tried to do something intellectually dishonest, borderline outright lying and I called you out for it. That is all that happened here. 

 

I zone more then most people, and do so without a pocket emp or team. Why would I be upset about dying? That doesn't even make sense. 

I very specifically cited you as one of the best players in the game, before describing your performance in zone.

I clearly stated my respect for you before saying what actually happened. 

 

There is no chip here besides what you've imagined for yourself. Stop overthinking it, I never attacked you. 

1 hour ago, Dan Petro said:

 

I don't really think more, or less or anything of you.  Beyond you being annoying on annoying characters (Which hey, CoH has this whole disruption role in PvP and that is fine), the only thing I've said about you positive or negative (to friends) is that you might be a decent arena PvP'er if you ever gave it a shot and put some time into it.  

 

And see there's the rub. If you didn't think less of me, your first response to me clarifying wouldn't have been an assumption that I'm salty. There are exactly three ways to upset me in the game, and being killed in a zone on a toon I IO'd out 30 minutes ago and was testing would definitely not be one of them. 

 

You mistake my direct and straight nature for being emotional. You should refrain from reading into others when you have never spoken to them before in any meaningful manner, nor have any relationship with them. It makes you come off badly.

 

Should we call this a misunderstanding, or do you have something else that is bothering you?

Edited September 4, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[Dan Petro]

If you feel the need to add a wall of text filled with false statements (or just a warped sense of what was actually happening) you have to admit you come off insanely salty. 

 

Also, I'm going to tell you right now, I legit haven't read all the walls of text you have posted, just the first few lines after someone told me "What do you do to Epsilon to make him the big mad?" (So it isn't just me here and not even someone from my close circle of friends lol)  But yeah, my eyes literally glaze over when I see a wall of text combined with things like "ad hominem" and "straw man" because that is pretty much the sword and shield of a keyboard warrior and I have to be in a special kind of mood to actually engage with all that nonsense.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dan Petro

[CR Banana Man]

Can we not?

 

Melee can do a bunch of damage. Melee is almost unkillable. Melee (and many other non melee things) can’t do the sustained damage to kill anything reliably. 

 

Melee doesn’t need a buff. Melee (and many other non melee things) needs a change, and that change is probably way too big to happen with a tiny volunteer dev team. 

 

Melee is like the pyro in tf2. Too good at what it’s good at, too bad at what it’s bad at, and overall not usually useful in a competitive environment. 

 

We’re beating a dead horse at this point.