Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 1)

[KelvinKole]

18 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

My problem is how vague the statement is there, I'd really like some added detail regarding that formula so some proper math could be done ahead of time, in lieu of being able to test it.

 

If the +damage isn't DR'd too much at around what just maxed out soul drain can do, then whatever.

 

If it's balanced in such a way that just a full drain without anything like assault or AAO supporting it isn't worth it, that's a problem.

 

 

I'm less concerned about the implications inside of dark melee as a set and more about the special case it creates in general. If someone makes a dark melee character with intentions to duo or team with other sources of +dmg, will there be a way for them to know that dark consumption is on a curve and that powers in other sets have higher damage potential? It just feels like a hidden variable that's also not going to be easily understood.

[ScarySai]

17 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And the focus of the changes now are to bring the damage down because having access to the reliable and near max powered version is too strong. 

Removing crit will be a huge nerf by itself, reducing the damage curve will be more than enough.

 

17 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You don't explain how it's impractical

I touched on it a little, but I'm not interested in writing an essay and derailing the thread further with discussing an idea that isn't on the table for feedback.

 

@KelvinKoleThat's another good point, but I have to see the actual numbers before I can say how bad/good of a decision it is, that's what makes it so frustrating.

Edited February 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Arkterusss]

14 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And the focus of the changes now are to bring the damage down because having access to the reliable and near max powered version is too strong. 

 

You don't explain how it's impractical and I have no idea how you'd come to the conclusion that it creates a dependence in the context of your other arguments. 

 

You're also under the assumption I'm disagreeing? I'm just suggesting a different approach. I suggested the approach even before they started posting about reducing the power's yield and, and now I'm suggesting it as an alternative to outright limit the power from working with the other aspects of the AT's inherent and soul drain. 

It's impractical because your solution to "this power is doing too much damage" is "let's completely change how it functions/and or calculates its damage", which is a portion of the source of pushback on changing how damage buffs affect the power to begin with.  I mean I guess I could see people mashing Pocket D teleport power just to dump their end bar to boost the damage of this power, but that's probably the silliest way of addressing a simple issue of "this power is overtuned" and it's basically borderline shitposting.  

 

An actual reasonable approach would be something like, Well you could either dial back the damage scalar, which he doesnt seem to want to do.  So maybe you could make a portion of the power's damage unenchanceable like how Dull Pain functions.  

[macskull]

I think having a diminishing returns curve on damage buffs for Dark Consumption sets a dangerous precedent. There’s probably not going to be an intuitive way to see how damage buffs affect it outside of actually testing it and I’ll bet a billion inf it won’t be adequately documented in-game. I don’t really agree with removing the critical aspect of it either especially considering how long the recharge is. If the amount of damage this power can potentially put out is such a big deal, reduce the base damage or don’t have it scale with endurance.

 

The “damage scales with endurance” schtick is cool and all but if you need to impose artificial limits on the power to keep it from being too good, the simplest solution is just to lower its damage rather than try and implement diminishing returns and make it not crit. Are there any other Scrapper non-epic attacks that either don’t crit or otherwise have some special feature associated with them? I can’t think of any off the top of my head.

[ScarySai]

I'd like the two posts above this a hundred times if I could.

[Bionic_Flea]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

I think having a diminishing returns curve on damage buffs for Dark Consumption sets a dangerous precedent. There’s probably not going to be an intuitive way to see how damage buffs affect it outside of actually testing it and I’ll bet a billion inf it won’t be adequately documented in-game. I don’t really agree with removing the critical aspect of it either especially considering how long the recharge is. If the amount of damage this power can potentially put out is such a big deal, reduce the base damage or don’t have it scale with endurance.

 

The “damage scales with endurance” schtick is cool and all but if you need to impose artificial limits on the power to keep it from being too good, the simplest solution is just to lower its damage rather than try and implement diminishing returns and make it not crit. Are there any other Scrapper non-epic attacks that either don’t crit or otherwise have some special feature associated with them? I can’t think of any off the top of my head.

I'm agreeing with this.  While I was loving the damage that I was doing on my shield/dark tank, I understand that clearing mobs solo in three attacks might be a bit much (Soul Drain, Dark Consumption, Shield Charge).  And though the concept of tying it to endurance is cool, I think it is better for overall game play for players to know "this power does X damage" and then let them add enhancements, +damage,  and/or procs (or not) as they wish.

 

Alternatively or additionally, can we see what the existing formula for the new Dark Consumption is?  Has that been posted anywhere?

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Alternatively or additionally, can we see what the existing formula for the new Dark Consumption is?  Has that been posted anywhere?

Not yet, I'd really like to see that, though.

 

We can't test it now so we can only be left to our imaginations and interpretations of the chicken-man's word.

Edited February 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[KelvinKole]

22 minutes ago, macskull said:

Are there any other Scrapper non-epic attacks that either don’t crit or otherwise have some special feature associated with them? I can’t think of any off the top of my head.

I don't think so on Scrappers. Stalker version of Energy Melee has an Energy Transfer that can't crit and Total Focus that can't crit for double damage, so the precedent for something like this is out there. Obviously, Stalkers don't even get Dark Consumption so this change isn't relevant to them but they do have that limitation elsewhere. You may have already been aware.

 

Let's also not forget about Brutes. A large portion of what makes them tick is the +dmg from Fury and their higher +dmg cap. Making a power that reacts differently to their core mechanics could also be seen as bad form. 

[macskull]

16 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

I don't think so on Scrappers. Stalker version of Energy Melee has an Energy Transfer that can't crit and Total Focus that can't crit for double damage, so the precedent for something like this is out there. Obviously, Stalkers don't even get Dark Consumption so this change isn't relevant to them but they do have that limitation elsewhere. You may have already been aware.

 

Let's also not forget about Brutes. A large portion of what makes them tick is the +dmg from Fury and their higher +dmg cap. Making a power that reacts differently to their core mechanics could also be seen as bad form. 

That’s fair. I knew about the ET one (but their crit removes the self damage so it at least does something) and there’s a power in KM that recharges Build Up when it crits. I would be okay with a reduced-scale crit on Dark Consumption a la Total Focus.

 

Depending on how the damage DR’s the proposed changes will absolutely make this power objectively worse on Brutes than either Tankers or Scrappers.

Edited February 28, 2020 by macskull

[Replacement]

13 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

To clarify: the change is going to be specific to Dark Consumption and nothing else. Right now, Soul Drain X10 foes (potentially with BU proc) followed by DC at full endurance is just too much damage at the start of a fight, especially on Scrappers that have a 25% higher  DMG Buff modifiers.

 

Every bit of +DMG will still increase damage, but it will work as a curve.

 

The alternative is to significantly lower the damage of Dark Consumption for everyone just to prevent high end scrapper builds (And some brute/tanks too) from getting out of hand. 
 

I prefer to try control the max damage than to try to control the base 3SO damage.

I'm guessing this basically means a portion of the damage will be unenhanceable?  I'm ok with it, just don't do what 5th Edition D&D did and go over-the-top with anti-synergies:

"Rangers traditionally dual wield? Make sure they only gain bonus damage once/turn."

"Barbarians traditionally use big slow weapons? give them +static damage that can only scale by getting more attacks (start dual wielding, etc)"

 

I'm a little more curious/worried about not-critting.  This might just be a precedent I'm unaware of?  I'd take low-damage crits, pretty sure we have those.  But no-crits seems harsh.

[Leogunner]

49 minutes ago, Arkterusss said:

It's impractical because your solution to "this power is doing too much damage" is "let's completely change how it functions/and or calculates its damage", which is a portion of the source of pushback on changing how damage buffs affect the power to begin with. 

That's not impactibility. These changes are in beta, I remind you, so it's not changing anything from how it is live. If you want to prove impactibility, you probably need to touch on what the goal of the changes are. Trying to do that by discussing function kind of flies in the face of any changes, including the one trying to be balanced here. 

 

53 minutes ago, Arkterusss said:

An actual reasonable approach would be something like, Well you could either dial back the damage scalar, which he doesnt seem to want to do.  So maybe you could make a portion of the power's damage unenchanceable like how Dull Pain functions.  

Well the argument is still being made. I'm sure removing its ability to crit is in agreement but few want powers moving forward to be balanced this way, and this that discussion continues. 

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I'm a little more curious/worried about not-critting.  This might just be a precedent I'm unaware of?  I'd take low-damage crits, pretty sure we have those.  But no-crits seems harsh.

Depends, if it's like lightning rod (Something they tried to compare it to before) where it doesn't crit, but hits SUPER hard, that's fine. If the damage is nerfed too much in addition to losing crit though, that's a problem.

[Captain Powerhouse]

The current formula in test is simply Scale * EndPercentage

 

Still pending internal testing but the upcoming change will be:

Half the damage will be affected by enhancements and buffs.

The other half will scale based on how much endurance you have, but ignore enhancements and buffs.

 

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Are there any other Scrapper non-epic attacks that either don’t crit or otherwise have some special feature associated with them?

 

Lightning Rod does not crit.

Shield Charge does not crit.

 

Basically: melee mini-nukes are not intended to crit.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[ScarySai]

Thanks for the update, I'm going to have to think about the numbers there.

 

Any ETA for when this might be in our hands for testing? Understand that it's pending internally still, but a rough guesstimate.

Edited February 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Captain Powerhouse]

I don't have an ETA, lots of stuff going on right now between the new set and other pending changes that still have not even made it to testing yet.

[honoraryorange]

It really feels like people are blowing this out of proportion - everyone claiming this is OP, I suggest you try some similar non-DM builds on test, and make sure to use the full incarnates and purple IO level builds you're testing DM with. You can clear entire groups of mobs like this in seconds with number weapon sets, without the 30s cooldowns of these nukes. 

 

It is bizarre to see people be like "OMG I can clear this entire mob in the space of 6 seconds!" like it is something new and special. It isn't. Lots of sets can do it. Dark Melee just finally can do more than punch bosses now.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, honoraryorange said:

It really feels like people are blowing this out of proportion - everyone claiming this is OP, I suggest you try some similar non-DM builds on test, and make sure to use the full incarnates and purple IO level builds you're testing DM with. You can clear entire groups of mobs like this in seconds with number weapon sets, without the 30s cooldowns of these nukes. 

 

It is bizarre to see people be like "OMG I can clear this entire mob in the space of 6 seconds!" like it is something new and special. It isn't. Lots of sets can do it. Dark Melee just finally can do more than punch bosses now.

 

Fact of the matter is that dark melee is pretty dependent on  1: Being surrounded to get it's damage buff, and 2: shield secondary to reach reasonable clear speeds, simply because it does not have access to a lot of AoE.

 

The concerns this will ever be OP like TW are absurd to me.

Edited February 28, 2020 by ScarySai
Edited out tangent.

[Replacement]

39 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The current formula in test is simply Scale * EndPercentage

 

Still pending internal testing but the upcoming change will be:

Half the damage will be affected by enhancements and buffs.

The other half will scale based on how much endurance you have, but ignore enhancements and buffs.

 

 

I think this is a point where it's really important to compare to Live.  Once I'm over the knee-jerk and realize that "portion of damage that scales off of Endurance instead of Damage enhancements" doesn't even exist on live, that this is all cream cheese frosting, I'm super ok with this.

 

But also, about the critting: Both Lightning Rod and Shield Charge deal their damage via pseudopets.  I guess I always assumed that was the only reason they didn't crit.  Oh well, I'll get over it.

[macskull]

45 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Lightning Rod does not crit.

Shield Charge does not crit.

 

Basically: melee mini-nukes are not intended to crit.

Those are both pseudopets though (both of which are the same for every AT so no AT can actually leverage them as much as they should be able to) so it’s not really fair to compare them like that.

 

To the damage buff thing, I think the “portion is enhanceable and a portion scales” seems like a reasonable mechanic.

Edited February 28, 2020 by macskull

[KelvinKole]

54 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The current formula in test is simply Scale * EndPercentage

 

Still pending internal testing but the upcoming change will be:

Half the damage will be affected by enhancements and buffs.

The other half will scale based on how much endurance you have, but ignore enhancements and buffs.

 

 

This sounds right on the money to me. Totally good with it. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

11 minutes ago, macskull said:

Those are both pseudopets though (both of which are the same for every AT so no AT can actually leverage them as much as they should be able to) so it’s not really fair to compare them like that.

There is nothing stopping pseudopets from critting. Not only does each AT actually have their own version of each one of these powers, pets can also check the AT of their owners to know if they can trigger a particular effect. On top of that the tanker version has not been a pseudo pet for a while, and the others will transition to be executePowers soon-ish.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[WindDemon21]

Whatever is done, please for the love of god make soul drain 90s recharge too to be in line with Dark Consumption. Nothing is more annoying than having two powers that you'll always use together be a little bit off on recharge and having to wait for the one because it has a longer recharge. I would be fine, and this should be looked at given this thread, having it also give more damage/to hit off the first enemy hit, and less off the consecutive ones, so the over all damage boost was lowered, but was more against a single target like AV fights, and would lower the overall damage boost to make dark consumption "less" powerful if that's anyone's gripe. This way it's faster, it's timing is aligned with dark consumption, and the set would have less "power creep". I would be happier with a more consistent damage buff overall this way, especially versus single targets/small mobs, and the faster base recharge that lines up with DC, at the cost of a little damage bonus.

[ScarySai]

23 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Whatever is done, please for the love of god make soul drain 90s recharge too to be in line with Dark Consumption. Nothing is more annoying than having two powers that you'll always use together be a little bit off on recharge and having to wait for the one because it has a longer recharge. I would be fine, and this should be looked at given this thread, having it also give more damage/to hit off the first enemy hit, and less off the consecutive ones, so the over all damage boost was lowered, but was more against a single target like AV fights, and would lower the overall damage boost to make dark consumption "less" powerful if that's anyone's gripe. This way it's faster, it's timing is aligned with dark consumption, and the set would have less "power creep". I would be happier with a more consistent damage buff overall this way, especially versus single targets/small mobs, and the faster base recharge that lines up with DC, at the cost of a little damage bonus.

No, thank you.

 

It can already have 100% uptime, nerfing it to make it do the same thing with less stats isn't good.

 

Edit for clarity: The recharge is accurate to the game results. You can absolutely reach this level of recharge for the ability in the game.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[WindDemon21]

And you can do that much easier, and sooner when exemplaring. Again, i know it's an IO world, but sets are not designed around that, and to do that costs tons of money and lots of effort to get it to that recharge which should not be the focus.