Super Reflexes: Quality of Life Improvements

[Troo]

5 minutes ago, modest said:

In what way is it not Super Reflexes?

moving 2 powers significantly, removing 3 powers, and then replacing them with 3 new powers.

[modest]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

moving 2 powers significantly, removing 3 powers, and then replacing them with 3 new powers.

We have a difference in perspective. I believe that you're being unreasonable, and you believe that I am. Let's agree to disagree. I appreciate the chart that you made.

[modest]

 

 

Here's a quick chart that shows the disparity in levels at which the three primary defense-based sets receive their toggles that cover all positions or types.

Edited March 12, 2020 by modest
I've added Brutes and Tankers at Troo's request.

[Troo]

your 'chart' is only reflective of scrappers.

[modest]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

your 'chart' is only reflective of scrappers.

Good point. I added Brutes and Tankers.

[Karzach]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

moving 2 powers significantly, removing 3 powers, and then replacing them with 3 new powers.

In your opinion, can ANY changes be made to Super Reflexes and it still be "Super Reflexes"?

[Troo]

Sure, minor tweaks might be appropriate to power sets on an individual basis.

[Felis Noctu]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Sure, minor tweaks might be appropriate to power sets on an individual basis.

Troo, I'm curious. While obviously you're not that interested in the proposed changes, do you agree at all that, in comparison to other defensive sets, SR is kinda bland and restrictive?

 

Those are my biggest issues with it I think. To bring it up to par with other defensive sets in terms of core survival, you basically need to take 8 of the powers, whereas many sets get away with somewhere between 3-5 or so. Of those, three are nearly identical passives. Super Reflexes contains design decisions that weren't repeated (the nearly identical passives come to mind again: every other set has a unique "style" for each, but SR's just changing a single modifier), as well as a power progression that was "corrected" everywhere else. SR also doesn't really have any tricks that make it a particularly intriguing choice. Sure, what it does, it does fairly well, but its "personality" consists of dodging things and DDR to make sure it can keep dodging things. It feels shallow.

 

And my intent isn't just picking on SR specifically. I feel the same way about Invul. It's a FANTASTIC set from a numbers perspective, but beyond "I'm Superman", it doesn't have much personality either. It just sort of exists. But at least Invul's clicky interactive is a heal with a max health boost. SR's clicky interactive is its mez protection. That's just... eh?

 

To me, SR represents early Issue 0 design where they were just tossing out the staple "hero" concepts but still hadn't gotten into a groove of creative power design. Axe/Broadsword/Mace are another example of that. Other than secondary effects they're practically interchangeable, basically the same set with a different paint job.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[Leo_G]

3 hours ago, Felis Noctu said:

Troo, I'm curious. While obviously you're not that interested in the proposed changes, do you agree at all that, in comparison to other defensive sets, SR is kinda bland and restrictive?

One thing I learned from reading people making suggestions and just in general really, is that tastes differ. What you might see as bland and restrictive is right down the alley of someone else. SR is the normal natural set that doesn't have a bunch of bells and whistles and some prefer it that way. 

 

Would I mind shifting the AoE def toggle up? No, level 20 is a good spot, after enemies start to get more dangerous AoE's, you kind of get a taste of it before you finally cap off your armors' full effect. Other sets that get their armor toggles sooner still aren't at their peak... It's usually when they get their click heals or their signature AoE buff/attack. Sets mature over time to their full strength but you don't appreciate the strength if you get it all at the start without effort. 

 

Sentinel getting something unique is fine. Let them have their unique sets. I'm sure that aspect will keep their popularity above the scraps and brutes... 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Leo_G

[Obus Form]

5 hours ago, Felis Noctu said:

Super Reflexes contains design decisions that weren't repeated (the nearly identical passives come to mind again: every other set has a unique "style" for each, but SR's just changing a single modifier), as well as a power progression that was "corrected" everywhere else. SR also doesn't really have any tricks that make it a particularly intriguing choice...

 

And my intent isn't just picking on SR specifically. I feel the same way about Invul. It's a FANTASTIC set from a numbers perspective, but beyond "I'm Superman", it doesn't have much personality either. It just sort of exists. But at least Invul's clicky interactive is a heal with a max health boost. SR's clicky interactive is its mez protection. That's just... eh?

 

To me, SR represents early Issue 0 design where they were just tossing out the staple "hero" concepts but still hadn't gotten into a groove of creative power design. Axe/Broadsword/Mace are another example of that. Other than secondary effects they're practically interchangeable, basically the same set with a different paint job.

This very much.

 

The game COH of course released with /SR because it has to fit thematically with super heroes.  /SR design meant hitting soft cap easily but dying if you got hit.  Before IOs, reaching soft cap was a good selling point.  After IOs allowed everyone and their grand ma ma to hit soft cap, /SR lost its main sex appeal.  

 

Then, into /SR the devs inserted scaling resist based on missing health in order to give /SR competitiveness against other resist-based armor sets that also had heals (like dark armor, or invuln).  However because you have to lose HP to experience the same amount of resist as other armor sets, and without a heal (or new "absorb") makes /SR underperformed compared to resist-based sets that can also heal themselves.  

 

If one argues thematically that /SR should not have heals, a similar argument can be made that /SR should not have received scaling resists because...Super Reflexes doesn't make you take less damage when someone lands a hit on you...yet for balance reasons scaling resists were added and nobody complains it's thematic nonsensicality now.

 

My point being, a true QOL for /SR would add a heal and some sort of resist or extra HP BEFORE taking damage...else /SR will never perform as well as other resist-based sets, all of which also have self heals and/or regen self buffs

Edited March 12, 2020 by Obus Form

[aethereal]

Lots of people want armor sets that have little or nothing in the way of clicks.  It's thematic to at least a certain conception of how superhero defenses work, and there's some utility when dealing with sets that have redraw or busy combos.

 

Willpower is extremely popular despite having zero clicks.

[Leo_G]

1 hour ago, Obus Form said:

This very much.

 

The game COH of course released with /SR because it has to fit thematically with super heroes.  /SR design meant hitting soft cap easily but dying if you got hit.  Before IOs, reaching soft cap was a good selling point.  After IOs allowed everyone and their grand ma ma to hit soft cap, /SR lost its main sex appeal.  

 

Then, into /SR the devs inserted scaling resist based on missing health in order to give /SR competitiveness against other resist-based armor sets that also had heals (like dark armor, or invuln).  However because you have to lose HP to experience the same amount of resist as other armor sets, and without a heal (or new "absorb") makes /SR underperformed compared to resist-based sets that can also heal themselves.  

 

If one argues thematically that /SR should not have heals, a similar argument can be made that /SR should not have received scaling resists because...Super Reflexes doesn't make you take less damage when someone lands a hit on you...yet for balance reasons scaling resists were added and nobody complains it's thematic nonsensicality now.

 

My point being, a true QOL for /SR would add a heal and some sort of resist or extra HP BEFORE taking damage...else /SR will never perform as well as other resist-based sets, all of which also have self heals and/or regen self buffs

So you strawman your assumed reason for adding resists to SR and how it breaks the concept of SR (it doesn't. it's also a unique mechanic to the set) and rebut that by tossing concept completely out of the window?

 

Well, I have no rebuttal to that except to explain it in fewer words. 

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Obus Form said:

This very much.

 

The game COH of course released with /SR because it has to fit thematically with super heroes.  /SR design meant hitting soft cap easily but dying if you got hit.  Before IOs, reaching soft cap was a good selling point.  After IOs allowed everyone and their grand ma ma to hit soft cap, /SR lost its main sex appeal.  

 

Then, into /SR the devs inserted scaling resist based on missing health in order to give /SR competitiveness against other resist-based armor sets that also had heals (like dark armor, or invuln).  However because you have to lose HP to experience the same amount of resist as other armor sets, and without a heal (or new "absorb") makes /SR underperformed compared to resist-based sets that can also heal themselves.  

 

If one argues thematically that /SR should not have heals, a similar argument can be made that /SR should not have received scaling resists because...Super Reflexes doesn't make you take less damage when someone lands a hit on you...yet for balance reasons scaling resists were added and nobody complains it's thematic nonsensicality now.

 

My point being, a true QOL for /SR would add a heal and some sort of resist or extra HP BEFORE taking damage...else /SR will never perform as well as other resist-based sets, all of which also have self heals and/or regen self buffs

すみません。。。

 

You're saying resist based sets out perform defense based?

 

That's highly unlikely and narrowly subjective. Because of how defense and resist work, this would only be applicable at cap for each and under specific conditions. For example, a scrap at 75% resist all vs a scrap at 45% resist all definitively shows the defense set to be superior, significantly so.

 

If we discuss tank level resist cap, at the cap, with no debuffing then yes, resist can begin to outperform defense.

 

In most other situations in game, SR out performs most other sets at 50. This isn't conjecture, it has been demonstrated and mathed. Further, at full kit, SR evolves from nogethitsu to nevergetkiledsu.

[Obus Form]

6 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

So you strawman your assumed reason for adding resists to SR and how it breaks the concept of SR (it doesn't. it's also a unique mechanic to the set) and rebut that by tossing concept completely out of the window?

 

Well, I have no rebuttal to that except to explain it in fewer words. 

Super Reflexes, taken to real life martial Arts or bullet dodging, don't make you take less damage.  It's take all damage or none, unless you're talking about parrying punches, in which case unless you're a master level at reading opponents you still take some damage

[Obus Form]

6 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

In most other situations in game, SR out performs most other sets at 50. This isn't conjecture, it has been demonstrated and mathed. Further, at full kit, SR evolves from nogethitsu to nevergetkiledsu.

I'm talking only iTrial levels of damage.  

Can you link the math and demonstration that SR out performs other sets at 50.

[MunkiLord]

At this point I consider SR's best feature is how easily it allows me to chase other set bonuses since the defense and DDR are so high. For example, perma hasten is significantly easier to achieve on SR than other sets in which you are also building for defense. Also quickness obviously helps. 

[Troo]

7 hours ago, Felis Noctu said:

Troo, I'm curious. While obviously you're not that interested in the proposed changes, do you agree at all that, in comparison to other defensive sets, SR is kinda bland and restrictive?

Again, I'm not saying the suggestions are awful or amazing. I'm interested enough to read, respond and explain how the suggestions are more than minor tweaks.

Super Reflexes is what it is. If someone feels it is 'bland and restrictive'.. don't play it.

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Troo

[Felis Noctu]

7 hours ago, Leo_G said:

One thing I learned from reading people making suggestions and just in general really, is that tastes differ. What you might see as bland and restrictive is right down the alley of someone else. SR is the normal natural set that doesn't have a bunch of bells and whistles and some prefer it that way.

That's fair, I'll give you that one. It's simple and straightforward, and that might be all someone needs. In the defense of the changes suggested to that end, at least in terms of merging the passives, it would continue to be simple while opening up a little more room for personalization. I'd still dislike Bio for how complex and fiddly it can be, even if it wasn't ugly.

 

 

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Again, I'm not saying the suggestions are awful or amazing. I'm interested enough to read, respond and explain how the suggestions are more than minor tweaks.

Super Reflexes is what it is. If someone feels it is 'bland and restrictive'.. don't play it.

While I can see where you're coming from with that, I would argue that it's poor game design to make an aspect of a game boring enough that someone doesn't want to play it. Yes, everyone has different ideals about what is and isn't interesting, and where their preferences lie, but this is also a superhero game. Just from personal experience alone I can't even remember the number of concepts I've had where SR would fit in perfectly, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it because SR feels so meh. My most recent concept was actually in that category. I ended up tweaking the concept a bit so I could justify Invul, since both Shield and Ninjitsu didn't fit thematically, and Willpower was out because the focus on healing wasn't appropriate either.

 

Avoiding a powerset that fits a concept because you're afraid it'll make you lose interest in playing the character is a bad sign of the powerset's health among its peers. You're right that these aren't just minor tweaks, and anyone suggesting as much is definitely off-base. However, doing something like merging the passives, bringing the AoE toggle more in-line with other sets, and proliferating some SR-themed powers like Burst of Speed and Reaction Time (those are by far my preferred changes and additions if it were to happen) would keep the benefits and personality the same, the leveling experience would improve, and it'd add a little more spark to the set. It wouldn't dramatically affect the people who don't want those additions, but it would add to the appeal from people who aren't as into it.

 

 

5 hours ago, Obus Form said:

The game COH of course released with /SR because it has to fit thematically with super heroes.  /SR design meant hitting soft cap easily but dying if you got hit.  Before IOs, reaching soft cap was a good selling point.  After IOs allowed everyone and their grand ma ma to hit soft cap, /SR lost its main sex appeal. 

This in particular is what I get stuck on. Before enhancement power creep, SR WAS appealing because it could easily hit soft-cap and STAY there due to its DDR. It was the poster child of Defense-based survival. Now the only thing that really sets it apart is how much DDR it gets. That's not a bad thing, but considering the throne it sat on has kind of tarnished and fallen apart, it could use some TLC.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[Obus Form]

2 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

This in particular is what I get stuck on. Before enhancement power creep, SR WAS appealing because it could easily hit soft-cap and STAY there due to its DDR. It was the poster child of Defense-based survival. Now the only thing that really sets it apart is how much DDR it gets. That's not a bad thing, but considering the throne it sat on has kind of tarnished and fallen apart, it could use some TLC.

When everyone and grandma 👵🏻 can perform soft cap, like my online dating experience, my ex (/SR) got taken off that pedestal fast.

[SwitchFade]

11 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

That's fair, I'll give you that one. It's simple and straightforward, and that might be all someone needs. In the defense of the changes suggested to that end, at least in terms of merging the passives, it would continue to be simple while opening up a little more room for personalization. I'd still dislike Bio for how complex and fiddly it can be, even if it wasn't ugly.

 

 

While I can see where you're coming from with that, I would argue that it's poor game design to make an aspect of a game boring enough that someone doesn't want to play it. Yes, everyone has different ideals about what is and isn't interesting, and where their preferences lie, but this is also a superhero game. Just from personal experience alone I can't even remember the number of concepts I've had where SR would fit in perfectly, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it because SR feels so meh. My most recent concept was actually in that category. I ended up tweaking the concept a bit so I could justify Invul, since both Shield and Ninjitsu didn't fit thematically, and Willpower was out because the focus on healing wasn't appropriate either.

 

Avoiding a powerset that fits a concept because you're afraid it'll make you lose interest in playing the character is a bad sign of the powerset's health among its peers. You're right that these aren't just minor tweaks, and anyone suggesting as much is definitely off-base. However, doing something like merging the passives, bringing the AoE toggle more in-line with other sets, and proliferating some SR-themed powers like Burst of Speed and Reaction Time (those are by far my preferred changes and additions if it were to happen) would keep the benefits and personality the same, the leveling experience would improve, and it'd add a little more spark to the set. It wouldn't dramatically affect the people who don't want those additions, but it would add to the appeal from people who aren't as into it.

 

 

This in particular is what I get stuck on. Before enhancement power creep, SR WAS appealing because it could easily hit soft-cap and STAY there due to its DDR. It was the poster child of Defense-based survival. Now the only thing that really sets it apart is how much DDR it gets. That's not a bad thing, but considering the throne it sat on has kind of tarnished and fallen apart, it could use some TLC.

This is kinda not true.

 

Def cap with much less work, providing many slotting options

 

Very low maintenance due to only 1 clickie

 

Scaling DR

 

95% DDR

 

Recharge

 

+End

 

Slow resist

 

There's a whole list of what makes SR so desirable, and I have SR Sentinels, scraps, assassin's and tanks. The set is among my favorites because of exactly what it is. SR is incredibly powerful late game and needs no changing, save a possible reorder of lucky and evasion.

 

Other armour sets that have defense as a component can't do what SR does, as SR does it.

[Felis Noctu]

22 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

There's a whole list of what makes SR so desirable, and I have SR Sentinels, scraps, assassin's and tanks. The set is among my favorites because of exactly what it is. SR is incredibly powerful late game and needs no changing, save a possible reorder of lucky and evasion.

And that's fine if it's one of your favorites. However, the last sentence there is where a major issue lies. Everybody's incredibly powerful late game. What we need is some early game appeal, as well as some more personality.

 

- Yes, the DDR is great, but it's situational (granted, a more common situation, but still). Other sets have their ways of dealing with sudden debuff cascade. Shield has resistances and an enemy -dmg debuff. Ninjitsu, depending on the variation, has smoke bombs, blinding powder, a heal...

- SR has the recharge bonus, yes, but it's so small that it really only has impact in some edge cases where you're really trying to minmax your cooldowns. It's a nice benefit, don't get me wrong, but next to enhancements and set bonuses it's a drop in the bucket.

- The scaling DR only starts making a significant appearance at low levels of HP. You're running into the danger zone to stack it up, and DR's strength is Effective HP. The lower you are, the less impact that DR has. As a member of the Discord discussion put it:

Sorry, when I hear "Look how high my resists are when my HP is at 15%" I am immediately: "Oh no baby what is you doin?!?"

- If the +End you're talking about is the +Recovery on Elude, what's painful about that is Elude is generally considered to be skippable. Its main benefits are a massive amount of defense and DDR, but both of those are already very high from everything else. Other than certain specialized builds that revolve around Elude specifically it has no significant benefit to SR. It can help your end recovery during extended fights, sure, but better hope that fight is over before the crash hits.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[Caulderone]

ignore this, derp post

Edited March 12, 2020 by Caulderone

[Obus Form]

29 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

 Effective HP.

 

This is the measure by which all armor sets compare.

 

There s that post on layered defense

[SwitchFade]

48 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

And that's fine if it's one of your favorites. However, the last sentence there is where a major issue lies. Everybody's incredibly powerful late game. What we need is some early game appeal, as well as some more personality.

 

- Yes, the DDR is great, but it's situational (granted, a more common situation, but still). Other sets have their ways of dealing with sudden debuff cascade. Shield has resistances and an enemy -dmg debuff. Ninjitsu, depending on the variation, has smoke bombs, blinding powder, a heal...

- SR has the recharge bonus, yes, but it's so small that it really only has impact in some edge cases where you're really trying to minmax your cooldowns. It's a nice benefit, don't get me wrong, but next to enhancements and set bonuses it's a drop in the bucket.

- The scaling DR only starts making a significant appearance at low levels of HP. You're running into the danger zone to stack it up, and DR's strength is Effective HP. The lower you are, the less impact that DR has. As a member of the Discord discussion put it:

Sorry, when I hear "Look how high my resists are when my HP is at 15%" I am immediately: "Oh no baby what is you doin?!?"

- If the +End you're talking about is the +Recovery on Elude, what's painful about that is Elude is generally considered to be skippable. Its main benefits are a massive amount of defense and DDR, but both of those are already very high from everything else. Other than certain specialized builds that revolve around Elude specifically it has no significant benefit to SR. It can help your end recovery during extended fights, sure, but better hope that fight is over before the crash hits.

I understand. I am in the camp of SR has plenty of plenty of appeal and personality. So, changes leveraging this as a case for change, no vote.

 

Earlier game viability? Agreed. Swap lucky and evasion.

 

Changes to existing powers? Unnecessary in my view, no vote.

[modest]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

I understand. I am in the camp of SR has plenty of plenty of appeal and personality. So, changes leveraging this as a case for change, no vote.

 

Earlier game viability? Agreed. Swap lucky and evasion.

 

Changes to existing powers? Unnecessary in my view, no vote.

I respect your different point of view, and I am glad that you've voiced your opposition in a respectful manner. Opposing points of view offer valuable perspective, thank you.

 

I am happy that you can at least partially agree with my suggested changes.

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

There's a whole list of what makes SR so desirable, and I have SR Sentinels, scraps, assassin's and tanks. The set is among my favorites because of exactly what it is. SR is incredibly powerful late game and needs no changing, save a possible reorder of lucky and evasion.

I will point out that the Sentinel set that you enjoy has two out of three of my suggested changes. The Sentinel version of Super Reflexes combines Lucky and Evasion, adds Enduring, and adds the option of taking Master Brawler. Do you feel that those changes should not be proliferated to other archetypes?

 

6 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

At this point I consider SR's best feature is how easily it allows me to chase other set bonuses since the defense and DDR are so high. For example, perma hasten is significantly easier to achieve on SR than other sets in which you are also building for defense. Also quickness obviously helps. 

I like this about SR as well. That is why I haven't suggested changing the way that the set functions. I am not suggesting any changes to defense values, defense debuff resistances, or any of the other functions that super reflexes currently has.

 

My suggestions are aimed at making the set perform better while exemplared. As the chart that I posted earlier in the thread showed, the latest that every other defense set receives its primary toggles is level 4. Super Reflexes receives its third toggle at level 35 (Scrapper/Stalker/Sentinel), level 20 (Brute), or level 12 (Tanker). That's a large disparity, especially since Super Reflexes does not receive additional damage mitigation tools to compensate.

 

21 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

No, it doesn't.

 

It does get rid of Lucky, but it does so (somewhat unfortunately) by rolling the passive AoE into Evasion, so you get absolutely no AoE defense from the set until level 35.

 

Edit: @Major_Decoy corrected me regarding Lucky. I've quoted his post here because I find it helpful.

Major

Edited March 12, 2020 by modest