Super Reflexes: Quality of Life Improvements

[Felis Noctu]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Do you mean "agree to agree on the first two"?

Not the way I see it. You call it arguable, and I disagree 😛

[Major_Decoy]

 

22 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

Grazing strikes are a key part of defense, and the more injured you are, the more you're going to focus on mitigation of anything you can't avoid. Take a punch to the chest, use its momentum to slide backwards so the hit is less severe, etc.

As I recall, that was the justification of adding the damage resistance in the first place.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 hours ago, Uun said:

Hardly. It's completely superfluous the way it is. If I'm running 50-60% defense to all positions w/o Elude (on a tank), do I really need Elude for the recovery, run speed and jump height buff on a 17 minute recharge? Providing massive +def to a set that can soft cap already is silly, so I skipped the T9. I'd like to see Elude get the Meltdown/Strength of Will/MoG treatment (more modest buffs on a shorter timer) - cut the +def in half (or more) and add some combination of +res or +hp or +rech.

 

Bunch of this. I have FOUR Bill Z Bubbas on Excel. Tank, Brute, Scrapper and Stalker, all using Claws and SR.

 

Elude has been a completely useless and skippable power since long before the snap.

 

The only change that makes any sense for SR is add the Master Brawler choice as per Sentinels.

 

SR is arguably OP as is in 95% of the content. (When built "correctly.")

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

As I recall, that was the justification of adding the damage resistance in the first place.

 

You are correct.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Your wrong, one can actually get Eludes recharge so low a single phase shift will keep you safe between the down time, and thats on ones own.

 

If you really enjoy killing your kill time, sure, go for it. I know that I build for constant murder.... not self-induced time-outs.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

I really like the ideas offered here. The only hangups I have is the absorb mechanic being introduced. It doesn't really fit with speed. I know Reaction Time is already a power, but if it removed the Absorb, and replaced it with +move and +recharge (instead of waiting for the detoggle, which always seemed clunky), then it would feel more fitting with super reflexes.

 

One of my arguments for "rolling with the punches" way back in the day before the passive scaling resists were added was purely based on thematics. Yea, I'm taking too much damage, I'm not dodging as well, so now I start rolling to take less damage.

 

Absorb VERY MUCH fits in with the theme of rolling with the punch when things get rough.

[Caulderone]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The only change that makes any sense for SR is add the Master Brawler choice as per Sentinels.

I see two sensible, easy(ish), and mutually exclusive changes that I feel would be great either way.

1.  MB replaces PB just like on sentinel.

2.  Small pulsing absorb in a Reaction Time type toggle.  This actually would be very thematic from a deflection/glancing blow type of concept.  This could be in place of PB and include the status protection, or it could be in place of Quickness.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

One of my arguments for "rolling with the punches" way back in the day before the passive scaling resists were added was purely based on thematics. Yea, I'm taking too much damage, I'm not dodging as well, so now I start rolling to take less damage.

 

Absorb VERY MUCH fits in with the theme of rolling with the punch when things get rough.

Language-wise, I totally see that. Being able to prepare to absorb a hit by "rolling with it" thanks to quick reflexes does make sense to me. However the absorption in that scenario acts more like resistance, as you are still getting hit but taking less damage.

 

The absorb mechanic in this game is a shield/barrier, which I dont see as fitting with the theme.

 

But ultimately, I'm overthinking it. Just tell me you absorbed the hit so well that it didnt hurt and we'll move on 🙂

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Just tell me you absorbed the hit so well that it didnt hurt and we'll move on 🙂

 

Exactly this. The vast majority of my bio users are so much "shielding" themselves with extra HP as they are just plain avoiding/eating/resisting the damage by X means.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

1.  MB replaces PB just like on sentinel.

 

100% on board with this. I rather like my skippable T9 and 3 +def toggles and 3 +def/+scaling resist passives. (Or 2 on the stalker..... still don't know if the rates were changed so they get less or not...)

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

100% on board with this. I rather like my skippable T9 and 3 +def toggles and 3 +def/+scaling resist passives. (Or 2 on the stalker..... still don't know if the rates were changed so they get less or not...)

Stalkers get up to 25% on each, so 50% total with their two autos.

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

If you go back and reread my first post, my own ideal would be to see all the current toggles turned into autos, remove the scaling DR,, replace that with heal rate boosting, and make Elude a toggle that would be only the defense and move speed buffs. IMO a set for speedster themes should be all about defense, healing though not as much as regen, and run speed, so super speed is not a must for speedsters but an option for speedster RP concepts that also need a different set other then SR for concept reasons, and recharge speed.

 

Basically to sum it up I feel SR should be toggle light, almost all autos, and it should focus on def,speed,recharge, and passive healing rate.

I love, really love, this idea. But this sounds like it would be better as a new powerset. One I would 100% be on board for. In fact, this idea has just made my top five list of things I want in CoH.

[modest]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

However, you did suggest adding two new powers to SR, Enduring and Master Brawler.  Yes, I know, they exist in sentinel SR.  Adding them to other SR sets is adding new powers to those sets, and is a balance-affecting change that is not QOL.

This is a fair point, and I'm open to suggestions.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The only change that makes any sense for SR is add the Master Brawler choice as per Sentinels.

 

SR is arguably OP as is in 95% of the content. (When built "correctly.")

I like the functionality of the set as is at level 50. However, the set currently does not perform well at low levels.

 

Super Reflexes' main function is to cover all three of the positional defenses. However, Scrappers do not get one of the three positional defenses until level 35. A Super Reflexes Scrapper that exemplars to play a Synapse, Yin, Citadel, Sutter, either Positron, Twilight, Manticore, or Moonfire task force will lose 1/3rd of their positional defenses. A significant amount of the game's content is situated below 35. At sub-35 levels, Super Reflexes does not have any other survival tools (resistances, absorb, heals, etc) to fall back on.

 

Super Reflexes' secondary function is to provide scaling damage resistances. Other sets get their DDR in the first 4 powers (tiers 1 through 4). Scrappers have to wait until level 28 (tier 7). Being that the scaling damage resistances are a major component in the set, it does not make sense to me that Super Reflexes gets them far after other defense sets.

 

That is the reason why I suggest reordering the powers.

 

Again, and I am only reiterating this because some replies (not either of the posters that I have quoted) have missed this: I am not suggesting changing the defense values, scaling damage resist values, etc. of the set.

 

I'll add this too since it seems to have been overlooked or misinterpreted: I am not suggesting any changes in functionality/values to Elude, Focused Fighting, Focused Senses, Practiced Brawler, Evasion, or Quickness. These powers are great as they are.

Edited March 11, 2020 by modest

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Bunch of this. I have FOUR Bill Z Bubbas on Excel. Tank, Brute, Scrapper and Stalker, all using Claws and SR.

 

Elude has been a completely useless and skippable power since long before the snap.

 

The only change that makes any sense for SR is add the Master Brawler choice as per Sentinels.

 

SR is arguably OP as is in 95% of the content. (When built "correctly.")

I seem to recall the team here stating that they didn't want to do anything like Master Brawler ever again.

 

I kind of like the Reaction Time idea just because I've never been fond of having Elude as a taunt aura.

[Leo_G]

On 3/10/2020 at 7:52 PM, modest said:

What would these changes accomplish?

• Super Reflexes would have all of its positional defenses covered by level 8/ level16.
  • This fits with the theme of the set because its primary form of mitigation is in the form of positional defenses.
  • This would allow the set to function properly when exemplaring. Currently, the set does not scale well at low levels.
  • The defense and defense debuff resistance values would remain exactly the same. It would not be a buff to the set's defense or defense debuff resistances.
• Super Reflexes would have a passive recovery option in Enduring.
  • The Sentinel version of the set already has this.
  • Every other Defense set has a better option for recovery.
• Super Reflexes would gain a +Asorb option with the addition of Master Brawler.
  • This is the only true buff that I propose to the set. I don't feel strongly about this, and I am open to alternative suggestions for the level 26/level 35 power.
• These changes would require minimal time and effort from the Homecoming developers because they use powers that already exist in Super Reflexes sets. They would be quick and simple to implement.

Why does everyone want to remove any possible inkling of inconvenience rather than just playing within the rules and adapting?  That is, I wouldn't mind AoE defense to be shifted up a bit, but level 16?  There isn't even that much AoE tossed around, and one can adapt.  I've played plenty of SR scraps without absolutely needing max defense all the time.

 

Also, no, not every set gets endurance management.  Not every set should get endurance management.  Endurance management is *utility* and if everyone has it, it's now just a standard feature.  I actually think they should cull some of the endurance options in armors to keep such a feature as utility.  

 

And I agree with someone's previous post that it seems like everyone's trying to shoehorn +absorb into everything.  

[modest]

17 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

Why does everyone want to remove any possible inkling of inconvenience rather than just playing within the rules and adapting?  That is, I wouldn't mind AoE defense to be shifted up a bit, but level 16?  There isn't even that much AoE tossed around, and one can adapt.  I've played plenty of SR scraps without absolutely needing max defense all the time.

We are clearly doing this to make you unhappy. It can't possibly be because we enjoy the game and want to see it continue to flourish. 🙃

 

Here's a list of defense sets that get their major defense/resistance toggles by level 20: Fiery Aura, Energy Aura, Dark Armor, Shield Defense, Ninjitsu, Invulnerability, Bio Armor, Radiation Armor, Electric Armor, and Ice Armor.

 

Ninjitsu and Shield are the two sets closest to Super Reflexes in that they both focus on positional defenses. Ninjitsu gets Melee defense at level 1, Ranged and AOE at level 2, and additional Melee/Ranged/AoE at level level 6. Shield gets Melee at level 1, Ranged and AOE at level 2, and additional Melee/Ranged/AOE at level 20. Do you see how that's a strong departure from Super Reflexes which has to wait until 35?

17 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

Also, no, not every set gets endurance management.  Not every set should get endurance management.  Endurance management is *utility* and if everyone has it, it's now just a standard feature.  I actually think they should cull some of the endurance options in armors to keep such a feature as utility. 

No one in this thread has stated that "every set gets endurance management". Perhaps you're misinterpreting something. The power "Enduring" was created by the Homecoming developers for the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes. It provides 30% enhanceable recovery. This was not at my suggestion. It existed long before this thread was created. We are commenting on an existing power that is already in the game.

17 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

And I agree with someone's previous post that it seems like everyone's trying to shoehorn +absorb into everything.  

Please provide your suggestions. +Absorb may not be the best choice. The reason why we are discussing +absorb is because of the power Master Brawler, another power that is in the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes that was created by the Homecoming team. This power also existed before this thread was created.

Edited March 12, 2020 by modest

[Troo]

7 hours ago, modest said:

8 hours ago, Troo said:

Okay, since there won't be such sweeping changes to Super Reflexes. What would you like your 'new' power set called?

I suspect that this is an attempt at humor, but in case it isn't:

 

What sweeping changes do you see? The powers are the same. The only thing that is changing is the order of the powers to bring them in line with the power progression of every other defense set in the game.

 

The defense values are exactly the same. The defense debuff resistance is exactly the same. The scaling resists are exactly the same. The powers are the same.

No, that was not humor.

 

FYI Tankers get the rest of their AOE def at level 18, Brutes get it at 28, Stalkers get it at level 1 in Hide and the 35 out of hide, Scrappers get it at 35.

 

Maybe your concerns are limited to scrappers?

 

[modest]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

No, that was not humor.

 

FYI Tankers get the rest of their AOE def at level 18, Brutes get it at 28, Stalkers get it at level 1 in Hide and the 35 out of hide, Scrappers get it at 35.

 

Maybe your concerns are limited to scrappers?

 

In combat, Hide gives a 3% defense to all. The 35 AOE defense only applies while hidden.

[Troo]

@modest I read you stating you're not changing anything and then see you are suggesting moving 2 powers significantly, removing 3 powers, and then replacing them with 3 new powers.

 

Moving Evasion earlier; 12 levels for Tankers, 24 levels for Brutes, 31 levels for Scappers and Stalkers.. that alone is not a small change.

 

I realize it may have been fun to discuss on discord, but the odds of sweeping changes to an existing power set are not high. AND definitely not just quality of life improvements.

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Troo

[Leo_G]

1 hour ago, modest said:

It can't possibly be because we enjoy the game and want to see it continue to flourish. 🙃

 

I'd say the game flourishes just fine without making everything optimized for min/maxing.  If it weren't flourishing, we probably wouldn't be discussing this popular powerset.

 

And I know I sound crazy every time I make an argument of "slippery slope power creep" but I know you all aren't blind.

 

When will we start reigning in IO bonus def/rech and abundant AoE?  Never?  I thought so.

[modest]

42 minutes ago, Troo said:

@modest I read you stating you're not changing anything and then see you are suggesting moving 2 powers significantly, removing 3 powers, and then replacing them with 3 new powers.

 

Moving Evasion earlier; 12 levels for Tankers, 24 levels for Brutes, 31 levels for Scappers and Stalkers.. that alone is not a small change.

 

I realize it may have been fun to discuss on discord, but the odds of sweeping changes to an existing power set are not high. AND definitely not just quality of life improvements.

 

My primary suggestion is to move one power. One. Evasion.

 

I am not removing three powers. Did you misunderstand something?

 

The two new powers are from the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes. I don't feel strongly about those. I would be fine if they did not proliferate to Scrappers, Brutes, and Tanks. I included them because this is work that the Homecoming team already completed, and it is easier to reuse what they've already done rather than come up with something new.

 

As I pointed out in an earlier post, Shield and Ninjitsu are the two power sets most similar to Super Reflexes. Ninjitsu AND Shield get all three positional defenses covered by level 2. Why should Super Reflexes, a power set that relies entirely upon defenses as its form of damage mitigation, wait until level 35? Please explain why that is reasonable to you.

 

I believe that your intent is to provide constructive criticism. Thank you for any constructive criticism that you provide.

[Troo]

Existing	Tanker	Brute	Scrapper	Stalker		Proposed	Levels
Focused Fighting	1	1	1	2		Focused Fighting	1/1/1/2
Focused Senses	1	2	2	4		Focused Senses	1/2/2/4
Agile (delete)	2	4	4	10		Evasion (moved)	2/4/4/10
Practiced Brawler	6	10	10	16		Practiced Brawler	6/10/10/16
Dodge (delete)	8	16	16	20		Agility (new)	8/16/16/20
Evasion	12	20	35*	35*		Quickness (moved)	12/20/20/28
Lucky (delete)	18	28	28			Enduring (new)	18/28/28/-
Quickness	26	35	20*	28*		Master Brawler (New)	26/35/35/35
Elude	32	38	38	38		Elude	32/38/38/38

Edited March 12, 2020 by Troo
oh I understood right away what you were asking

[Troo]

On 3/10/2020 at 4:52 PM, modest said:

Level 8/Level 16: Agility. A new power that is a combination of Agile, Dodge, and Lucky.

You may be forgetting you added this power which removed Agile.

 

I am not saying the ideas are bad or good. It's just not Super Reflexes. Trying to take unique sets and generic them to match other sets... well I do take issue with homogeneous sets.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Troo

[modest]

6 minutes ago, Troo said:

Existing

Tanker

Brute

Scrapper

Stalker

Proposed

Levels

This is a great chart, and it is very helpful for illustrating the proposed changes. Thank you.

 

I see how combining those three powers could be interpreted as removing three existing powers, but it's not really an honest way of describing my suggestion.

 

I suggest that Agile, Dodge, and Lucky would combine to be a single passive power. There is precedence for this: Stalker and Sentinel versions of defensive power sets do this. The easiest example is Invulnerability. In other words, this has been done to other power sets that currently exist on Homecoming. Doing so would not increase or decrease the defense or defense debuff resistance values of the power set.

1 minute ago, Troo said:

You may be forgetting you added this power which removed Agile.

 

I am not saying the ideas are bad or good. It's just not Super Reflexes.

In what way is it not Super Reflexes? Please elaborate on your point of view, as I feel that this is helpful to reach a common understanding.

 

Are you aware that Enduring and Master Brawler already exist in the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes? Is that set not Super Reflexes?

Edited March 12, 2020 by modest

[SwitchFade]

Look, all that is even remotely plausible is one simple change:

 

Swap lucky and evasion.

 

That's it.

 

This one thing would smooth the set as AoE is not prolific before 28.