Super Reflexes: Quality of Life Improvements

[Major_Decoy]

30 minutes ago, modest said:

The Sentinel version of Super Reflexes combines multiple passives into a single power

No, it doesn't.

 

It does get rid of Lucky, but it does so (somewhat unfortunately) by rolling the passive AoE into Evasion, so you get absolutely no AoE defense from the set until level 35.

[Felis Noctu]

9 hours ago, Leo_G said:

One thing I learned from reading people making suggestions and just in general really, is that tastes differ. What you might see as bland and restrictive is right down the alley of someone else. SR is the normal natural set that doesn't have a bunch of bells and whistles and some prefer it that way.

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

Lots of people want armor sets that have little or nothing in the way of clicks.  It's thematic to at least a certain conception of how superhero defenses work, and there's some utility when dealing with sets that have redraw or busy combos.

 

Willpower is extremely popular despite having zero clicks.

I wanted to quote that first one again, and add the second because they're absolutely 100% accurate and I agree with them completely. Like I mentioned in one of the earlier posts, I ended up tweaking a concept to fit with Invul instead of SR because I was afraid I'd get frustrated with SR and give up. Every time I've tried it before, that's been the result. This character doesn't WANT anything flashy, so Shield and Ninjitsu are out, as is Energy Aura. The focus is more on the attack abilities, the defense is meant to be as passive and behind the scenes as possible. Willpower, while also subtle, didn't fit due to the healing aspect, and for the same reason Regeneration is eliminated. They aren't healing, they're just fast, combat efficient, and somewhat resilient. That left me with Invul as the only set other than SR that could be justified given the concept.

 

"Avoiding a powerset that fits a concept because you're afraid it'll make you lose interest in playing the character is a bad sign of the powerset's health among its peers."

 

While some people may and do like it, it could be adjusted to appeal to a wider audience without dramatically affecting the current users. Bio Armor is popular and loved among a certain audience as well, but the above statement applies to it as well in a different sense. Some people avoid it because of the ugly visual effects. If everything played nice with MinimalFX then it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but there's still some remainder of it left on at least one power that throws appearances off. Others avoid it due to how complex it can get. That's also fair, but also a part of its personality: Adaptability.

 

No set can be made to appeal to everyone, that's never going to happen. However, some sets could still see some adjustments to make them stand out more to a larger crowd without harming their niche or the diehards that already love them. I believe SR is one of those.

[Leo_G]

6 hours ago, Obus Form said:

Super Reflexes, taken to real life martial Arts or bullet dodging, don't make you take less damage.  It's take all damage or none, unless you're talking about parrying punches, in which case unless you're a master level at reading opponents you still take some damage

Well, Super Reflexes as a concept is more than merely dodging attacks.  It's been stated how they just tried to file through the comic trope powers and an aspect of having Super Reflexes that won't reflect 1:1 from comics is pulling an ally out of the way of a slice or shot or deflecting attacks from a hostage with your own body.  In doing those, you might prevent grave injury to someone else but cause partial injury to yourself.

 

Also also, it's partially to emphasize that a person with those reflexes and thin armor might get bloody and bruised, with an injured limping leg and blood cascading into their vision, surrounded in a herd the of unconscious bodies of their enemies who looks on at the approaching gun wielding hoard coming to finish them off but presses forward anyway.  The guy isn't "resisting damage" so much as he's got little left to lose by going on.  

[Felis Noctu]

12 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

46 minutes ago, modest said:

I will point out that the Sentinel set that you enjoy has two out of three of my suggested changes. The Sentinel version of Super Reflexes combines multiple passives into a single power

No, it doesn't.

 

It does get rid of Lucky, but it does so (somewhat unfortunately) by rolling the passive AoE into Evasion, so you get absolutely no AoE defense from the set until level 35.

Yeah, Modest, you might want to check those powers again. Agile and Dodge are still there, and the DDR and scaling res from Lucky were dropped into Enduring. Alongside Psionic defense for some reason. I guess it covers the positional hole that Psionic can have, but SR wasn't concepted with mental fortitude in mind.

 

I do feel like that demonstrates the "health" of SR though. To adapt it for a different AT style they decided to implement a mutual power choice pair, merge some key aspects onto another power that was created to cover a deficit (though despite my support of the proposed SR changes I'm not sure I like Enduring, it just is what it is), and as you said, it now gets NO AoE defense until 35. Can I get a Roblox "oof!" in here? Again, that doesn't mean the set is terrible, but looking at it from a design perspective it's obtuse, and from a leveling perspective it's awkward.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[MunkiLord]

41 minutes ago, modest said:

 

I like this about SR as well. That is why I haven't suggested changing the way that the set functions. I am not suggesting any changes to defense values, defense debuff resistances, or any of the other functions that super reflexes currently has.

 

My suggestions are aimed at making the set perform better while exemplared. As the chart that I posted earlier in the thread showed, the latest that every other defense set receives its primary toggles is level 4. Super Reflexes receives its third toggle at level 35 (Scrapper/Stalker/Sentinel), level 20 (Brute), or level 12 (Tanker). That's a large disparity, especially since Super Reflexes does not receive additional damage mitigation tools to compensate.

I know longer have this build unfortunately, but I remember being soft capped to all three down to level 30 back on live before attuning enhancements was a thing. For melee and ranged it was even lower. But that took a significant investment and AoE was a definite hole once I was below 30. Plus almost the entire build had to use level 27-33 enhancements, which made a difference at level 50. 

 

So yes, I would live for that holet to be filled earlier. 

[modest]

15 minutes ago, Felis Noctu said:

Yeah, Modest, you might want to check those powers again. Agile and Dodge are still there, and the DDR and scaling res from Lucky were dropped into Enduring. Alongside Psionic defense for some reason. I guess it covers the positional hole that Psionic can have, but SR wasn't concepted with mental fortitude in mind.

 

I do feel like that demonstrates the "health" of SR though. To adapt it for a different AT style they decided to implement a mutual power choice pair, merge some key aspects onto another power that was created to cover a deficit (though despite my support of the proposed SR changes I'm not sure I like Enduring, it just is what it is), and as you said, it now gets NO AoE defense until 35. Can I get a Roblox "oof!" in here? Again, that doesn't mean the set is terrible, but looking at it from a design perspective it's obtuse, and from a leveling perspective it's awkward.

 

25 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

No, it doesn't. It does get rid of Lucky, but it does so (somewhat unfortunately) by rolling the passive AoE into Evasion, so you get absolutely no AoE defense from the set until level 35.

You're both right. I updated my post to reflect your corrections, thanks!

[DrRocket]

As is at this time Super Reflexes is totally broken, I tried to make it work, but it just not survivable.  I did get the character to 50 and really through mids tried to make it survivable and simply could not, had to many gaps.

 

I gave up on it and deleted the character

 

Regen needs a total make-up where they get true healing and endurance recharge as the other scrapper defensive sets

 

V/R

[Obus Form]

30 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

As is at this time Super Reflexes is totally broken, I tried to make it work, but it just not survivable.  I did get the character to 50 and really through mids tried to make it survivable and simply could not, had to many gaps.

 

I gave up on it and deleted the character

 

Regen needs a total make-up where they get true healing and endurance recharge as the other scrapper defensive sets

 

V/R

My friend, you need a big dose of /Dark Armour

[Troo]

41 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

As is at this time Super Reflexes is totally broken, I tried to make it work, but it just not survivable. 

Let's team up, maybe there are some subtle things I can help with, like 'don't stay in the aoe!' & 'use one purple inspiration before we get into trouble!' 

 

Side note: a SR tanker can be at 44.5% positional defense by level 20 without maneuvers or weave.

[Felis Noctu]

Yeah, I wouldn't call it broken, especially not at 50. It works, earlier levels and the build rigidity are just hard to swallow. It requires a different kind of micromanagement from other sets. Kinda like blappers and doms where you gotta be more proactive instead of going into scrapper-lock.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Felis Noctu

[modest]

30 minutes ago, Troo said:

Side note: a SR tanker can be at 44.5% positional defense by level 20 without maneuvers or weave.

Are you factoring in IO set bonuses? Because if you are, then is that an impressive metric given that the set requires the contribution of IOs to meet that goal?

 

If you are including IO set bonuses, then Shield + tough + weave can cap positional defenses by level 16. By that level, Shield will also have higher max health and resistances to multiple types.

 

[Major_Decoy]

The trick is "Without maneuvers or weave" And no, it doesn't need IOs. It does need combat jumping or hover.

 

Edit: While it looks like you get all the powers you need by level 18, if I'm counting right, you don't have all the slots you need for it until level 23.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Major_Decoy
Edit: Wow, that turned out blurry, also edited because I don't think you can do that by level 20

[modest]

11 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

The trick is "Without maneuvers or weave" And no, it doesn't need IOs. It does need combat jumping or hover.

Edit: Wow, that turned out blurry, also edited because I don't think you can do that by level 20

I think that the forum software compresses images. Don't worry, your screenshot is readable.

 

I don't think that you can do it by level 20 either without IOs, which is why I asked.

[Major_Decoy]

You can get to 44.9% defense by level 19 if you use 3 20+5 Defense IOs in every passive and four in the toggles (including Combat Jumping).

Edited March 13, 2020 by Major_Decoy
Edit: You can't put two slots in Lucky at level 18.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, DrRocket said:

As is at this time Super Reflexes is totally broken, I tried to make it work, but it just not survivable.  I did get the character to 50 and really through mids tried to make it survivable and simply could not, had to many gaps.

 

I gave up on it and deleted the character

 

Regen needs a total make-up where they get true healing and endurance recharge as the other scrapper defensive sets

 

V/R

Operator error. Nothing can make up for doing things like...

 

Not turning on toggles

 

Intentionally skipping passives

 

Not choosing powers from your armour set

 

Going afk in orbital strike while drinking beer and turning on walk power.

 

Rake all three toggles, slot them for defense, take the three passives, pick up tough and weave.

 

Use basic io's... Presto, 45% to m/r/a and nigh unkillable.

 

I hate to say it but... You're doing it a bit wrong.

 

Also, nerf Regen.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, modest said:

Are you factoring in IO set bonuses? Because if you are, then is that an impressive metric given that the set requires the contribution of IOs to meet that goal?

Nope. But I'll double check. Didn't even use that many slots and just stuck with single origin enhancements.

 

oops, sorry, 44.8% not 44.5% at level 19 not level 20, no maneuvers or weave

 

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Troo

[Major_Decoy]

Right, Single Origin Enhancements are still a thing. So yes, with even level Single Origin Enhancements, you can get 44.5% by level 19.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Major_Decoy
Edit: The sillier thing, I was looking at level 20+5 boosted IOs and thinking to myself "19.95% bonus? that doesn't even compete with a single origin enhancement" and didn't make the connection.

[Felis Noctu]

20 hours ago, Troo said:

Nope. But I'll double check. Didn't even use that many slots and just stuck with single origin enhancements.

 

oops, sorry, 44.8% not 44.5% at level 19 not level 20, no maneuvers or weave

I still stand by my statements that some tightening up of the set would be nice, but I'd be lying if I didn't stay that's really freaking awesome!

[modest]

It is very nice. It's also very needed, because the set doesn't get any of the mitigation tools that other sets get: heals, absorb shields, regen toggles/clicks, consistent resistances, damage/debuff auras, recovery toggles/clicks, endurance toggles/clicks, max health increases, team +def toggles, self +damage toggles, AoE attacks.

 

And it's okay that Super Reflexes doesn't get any of those things. That's why I do not want to alter any of the defense values, defense debuff resistance values, scaling resist values, or any other fundamental mechanics of the set. I am just suggesting that the set gain its core powers at lower levels.

 

Tankers are obviously affected by this less than the other archetypes, but there is still a disparity compared to every other defense set. The other defense sets provide their key powers by level 4, and Super Reflexes gains its final toggle at 35 (Stalker/Scrapper/Sentinel), 20 (Brute), and 12 (Tanker). Scrappers gain their final passive at 28, which is also very late compared to every other defense set in the game. And Defense is Super Reflexes' core form of mitigation.

[Leo_G]

3 minutes ago, modest said:

It is very nice. It's also very needed, because the set doesn't get any of the mitigation tools that other sets get: heals, absorb shields, regen toggles/clicks, consistent resistances, damage/debuff auras, recovery toggles/clicks, endurance toggles/clicks, max health increases, team +def toggles, self +damage toggles, AoE attacks.

 

And it's okay that Super Reflexes doesn't get any of those things. That's why I do not want to alter any of the defense values, defense debuff resistance values, scaling resist values, or any other fundamental mechanics of the set. I am just suggesting that the set gain its core powers at lower levels.

 

Tankers are obviously affected by this less than the other archetypes, but there is still a disparity compared to every other defense set. The other defense sets provide their key powers by level 4, and Super Reflexes gains its final toggle at 35 (Stalker/Scrapper/Sentinel), 20 (Brute), and 12 (Tanker). Scrappers gain their final passive at 28, which is also very late compared to every other defense set in the game. And Defense is Super Reflexes' core form of mitigation.

I'm in agreement.  Having the the Evasion by level 20 like Brutes would be beneficial.  As for getting all the +def late (because passives) I'd say is just a form of benefit moderation that comes with powers being set as a primary vs a secondary or vise versa.  Them's the breaks.

[modest]

32 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

I'm in agreement.  Having the the Evasion by level 20 like Brutes would be beneficial.  As for getting all the +def late (because passives) I'd say is just a form of benefit moderation that comes with powers being set as a primary vs a secondary or vise versa.  Them's the breaks.

I am glad that you're in partial agreement.

 

I disagree with your second point, because other power sets receive a single power that grants +def to all positional defense types (or all types). I suggested that Super Reflexes get a single passive power called "Agility" that provides "Auto: Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE)" at levels 8 for Tankers, and 16 for archetypes that have Super Reflexes as a secondary. However, that combined power could alternatively come at level 12 (for Tankers) and 20 (for Scrappers/Brutes/Sentinels/Stalkers).

 

One close comparison to "Agility" is Phalanx Fighting in Shield Defense. Phalanx Fighting provides "Auto: Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE)" at level 12 for tankers, and 20 for archetypes that have Super Reflexes as a secondary. Phalanx Fighting also provides additional defense to all positional defenses based on the number of allies in close proximity. I am not suggesting that Super Reflexes get this functionality. Instead, Super Reflexes would keep the same scaling damage resists that it currently has.

 

A second close comparison to "Agility" is Shinobi-Iri in the Ninjitsu power set. This power gives Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE) at level 6 for Scrappers and Sentinels.

 

A third close comparison to "Agility" is "Energy Cloak" in Energy Aura. This power provides Self +DEF(All) at level 20 for Scrappers.

 

A fourth close comparison to "Agility" is Cloak of Darkness in Dark Armor. This power provides Self: +DEF(All) at level 12 for Tankers and level 20 for Scrappers.

 

In summary, placing "Agility" at levels 8 (Tankers) and 16 (Scrappers/Brutes/Sentinels/Stalkers), or at 12 (Tankers) and 20 (Scrappers/Brutes/Sentinels/Stalkers) would bring it in line with the other defense sets. It would also provide Super Reflexes' secondary tools, defense debuff resistance and scaling resistances, at those levels. Super Reflexes would still have less mitigation than other defense sets, but I am not suggesting that we change that in any way. It's the nature of the set.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by modest

[Leo_G]

6 minutes ago, modest said:

In summary, placing "Agility" at levels 8 (Tankers) and 16 (Scrappers/Brutes/Sentinels/Stalkers), or at 12 (Tankers) and 20 (Scrappers/Brutes/Sentinels/Stalkers) would bring it in line with the other defense sets. It would also provide Super Reflexes' secondary benefit, defense debuff resistance and scaling resistances, at those levels. Super Reflexes would still have less mitigation than other defense sets, but I am not suggesting that we change that in any way. It's the nature of the set.

I think the problem here is you're comparing powers in a vacuum.

 

Shield defense has a portion of its defense debuff resist tied to a toggle that has no other personal benefit, and Ninjutsu gets their AoE def early?  Well what about their KB protection? SR's powers being mainly a summation of defense layers is just the maturation of its particular set progression.  If you disagree with that then I guess that's just where the argument stands.

 

 

[modest]

14 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

I think the problem here is you're comparing powers in a vacuum.

 

Shield defense has a portion of its defense debuff resist tied to a toggle that has no other personal benefit, and Ninjutsu gets their AoE def early?  Well what about their KB protection? SR's powers being mainly a summation of defense layers is just the maturation of its particular set progression.  If you disagree with that then I guess that's just where the argument stands.

 

 

I'm not sure what your point is regarding Shield Defense receiving Defense Debuff Resistance from Grant Cover. The Defense Debuff Resistance that is granted by Grant Cover is an incentive to take a power that would otherwise only benefit the player's teammates. Super Reflexes does not have a power that benefits its teammates. There's no comparable power in the set.

 

Ninjitsu gets Bo Ryaku at level 28. It comes that late in the set because it grants far more than knockback protection. It grants Auto: Self +Res(All DMG 7.5%), Auto: Self +Res (Knockback, Knockup), and Auto: Self +Protection (Knockback, Knockup). That is a lot of benefits from a single power. Again, Super Reflexes does not have a comparable power, and I am not suggesting that it should get one.

 

I am not trying to dismiss your opinions, I am trying to understand where you are coming from. If it is your opinion that 1. Super Reflexes should be a set that receives its primary mitigation tools at levels that are relatively late compared to other sets, and that 2. Super Reflexes should have its secondary +Def granting power split into three passives rather than combined into a single power (Shield, Ninjitsu, Energy Aura, Dark, Invincibility, and Willpower have this in a single power), then we can agree to disagree.

Edited March 14, 2020 by modest

[Leo_G]

1 hour ago, modest said:

I'm not sure what your point is regarding Shield Defense receiving Defense Debuff Resistance from Grant Cover. The Defense Debuff Resistance that is granted by Grant Cover is an incentive to take a power that would otherwise only benefit the player's teammates. Super Reflexes does not have a power that benefits its teammates. There's no comparable power in the set.

 

Ninjitsu gets Bo Ryaku at level 28. It comes that late in the set because it grants far more than knockback protection. It grants Auto: Self +Res(All DMG 7.5%), Auto: Self +Res (Knockback, Knockup), and Auto: Self +Protection (Knockback, Knockup). That is a lot of benefits from a single power. Again, Super Reflexes does not have a comparable power, and I am not suggesting that it should get one.

 

I am not trying to dismiss your opinions, I am trying to understand where you are coming from. If it is your opinion that 1. Super Reflexes should be a set that receives its primary mitigation tools at levels that are relatively late compared to other sets, and that 2. Super Reflexes should have its secondary +Def granting power split into three passives rather than combined into a single power (Shield, Ninjitsu, Energy Aura, Dark, Invincibility, and Willpower have this in a single power), then we can agree to disagree.

I'm trying to say that those resistances and protections are also parts of its primary mitigation tools.  Either way, you're going to have to put something in those later slots and having them as a primary means you get the benefit of gaining them much sooner.

 

I'd argue, even from a non-meta gaming standpoint, the content isn't so daunting that the curve the newer stacked sets (I frankly don't want to go into the unnecessary "buffs" sets like Ninjutsu got over the AT it originated on).  So agree to disagree away.  I'm willing to compromise (like setting Evasion in the level 20 slot) but why do sets need to constantly be pushed up when the content doesn't require it?  It's starting to become an epidemic.  Okay, some sets may need help (like Force Field, maybe Fire Melee could use some shaving...) but why would SR need to get revamped when it already performs great?

[modest]

9 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

I'm trying to say that those resistances and protections are also parts of its primary mitigation tools.  Either way, you're going to have to put something in those later slots and having them as a primary means you get the benefit of gaining them much sooner.

 

I'd argue, even from a non-meta gaming standpoint, the content isn't so daunting that the curve the newer stacked sets (I frankly don't want to go into the unnecessary "buffs" sets like Ninjutsu got over the AT it originated on).  So agree to disagree away.  I'm willing to compromise (like setting Evasion in the level 20 slot) but why do sets need to constantly be pushed up when the content doesn't require it?  It's starting to become an epidemic.  Okay, some sets may need help (like Force Field, maybe Fire Melee could use some shaving...) but why would SR need to get revamped when it already performs great?

I don't want it to be revamped. I want to be able to enjoy the power set while playing low level content.

 

The other sets can do that by level 4. Why shouldn't Super Reflexes be able to by level 12?

Edited March 14, 2020 by modest