What primaries benefit the most from scourge?

[King Kog]

I'm wanting to make a corr to round out my toon collection, but I want to make one that really benefits from the passive.
UNFORTUNATELY, I also don't want to make a fire/, ice/, or water/. (I've got a /fire blaster, ice/ tank, and water/ sentinel already, so thematically I've done those).
 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Jono265

[oOStaticOo]

I would recommend either Son/Time or Psi/Time.  

[King Kog]

19 minutes ago, oOStaticOo said:

I would recommend either Son/Time or Psi/Time.  

How do Son and Psi interact with Scourge? I know Fire/* and Ice/* do well because of their rain powers, and Water/* with whirlpool, but I'm not sure about Son/* and Psi/*

Edited March 22, 2020 by Jono265

[oOStaticOo]

Scourge just does extra damage as the enemy gets weaker.  Sonic lowers the Resistance of enemies so therefore granting you more damage the lower their resists get on top of double damage from Scourge.  Psi is one of the least resisted damage types except for when it comes to some Mechanical enemies.  So therefore Psi will already have high damage capabilities with Scourge just adding to it.

[Tryna_Dugid]

i think archery, dark blast, assault rifle, rad blast, elec blast and dual pistols all benefit greatly from scourge. lots of fast recharging DoT available to you in those sets. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tryna_Dugid

[King Kog]

7 hours ago, Tryna_Dugid said:

i think archery, dark blast, assault rifle, rad blast, elec blast and dual pistols all benefit greatly from scourge. lots of fast recharging DoT available to you in those sets. 

Oooh Archery! Is rain of arrows a pseudpet?
It was my understanding that most DoTs scourge chance is calculated at cast, and not recalculated over time?
Or are DoTs preferable because they'll (essentially) tick twice as fast once they're in the scourge range?

[seresibyl2]

1 hour ago, Jono265 said:

Oooh Archery! Is rain of arrows a pseudpet?
It was my understanding that most DoTs scourge chance is calculated at cast, and not recalculated over time?
Or are DoTs preferable because they'll (essentially) tick twice as fast once they're in the scourge range?

I don't think it's calculated at cast. 

[Phalanx480bc]

I believe any attack with ticks has a greater chance to scourge.  I could be entirely wrong, of course, but things like Ice's Frost Breath and Ice Storm, Fire's Fire Breath and Rain, Dark's Gloom, Sonic's Scream, etc. feel like they have a chance to scourge more.

[KelvinKole]

I think water would be the clear winner here. Whirlpool is a rain like power. Steam spray is a huge, wide, powerful DoT. Geyser has a Dot component. Even dehydrate has a small Dot. 

 

Pair it with storm. 

[Hjarki]

Sets with Rains are very 'Corruptor friendly'. These summon pseudo-pets that have a chance to scourge on every tick all the way down the health bar, almost perfectly optimizing Scourge.

 

Sets with DoT are 'Corruptor unfriendly'. Unlike Rains, the check to Scourge only occurs when you activate the power. If it is successful, the DoT will then Scourge on every tick. Otherwise, it won't Scourge at all. What this generally means is that your follow-on attacks have a lower chance to Scourge than they otherwise would - because the DoT has not yet finished dealing all of its damage.

 

Small/fast attacks are better as well. The 'chunkier' your damage becomes, the less likely it is to Scourge because the check for Scourge is based on what the target's health total was before the attack hit. For example, if your attack deals 50% of a target's health, Scourge is pointless - any attack where it Scourged, the attack would have killed the target without Scourge.

 

Some additional notes:

• Sonic's resist debuffs on are better on a Defender, so any minor advantage you might imagine from having greater damage dealt towards the end of the health bar is overwhelmed by the fact that you've got 33% more -resist from the Defender version of the attack.
• Ice Blast is the prototypical 'Corruptor set'. Water and Fire (both with Rains) might make an appearance here as well.
• Corruptors aren't very good.

To amplify this last point, let's consider the situation where the Corruptor version of your build is better than the Defender version:

1. Fighting a target with very high health compared to the size of attacks (i.e. AV/GM)
2. Having sufficient buffs to put you at the +damage cap
3. Not having -resist debuffs that are better on a Defender
4. You don't care about defenses.

If you don't hit all these points, the Defender version will almost certainly out-damage the Corruptor due to the larger values on support/pool powers and greater build flexibility. However, if you do hit all those points, then a Blaster will out-damage your Corruptor.

 

[Pzn]

3 hours ago, Jono265 said:

Oooh Archery! Is rain of arrows a pseudpet?
It was my understanding that most DoTs scourge chance is calculated at cast, and not recalculated over time?
Or are DoTs preferable because they'll (essentially) tick twice as fast once they're in the scourge range?

In the case of rain of arrows I believe it is a pseudopet but it still scourges.  Each tick of damage from rain of arrows recalculates chance for scourge damage.  If you use rain of arrows on full health enemies you'll still see scourge on the last couple ticks if you get them below 50%.  It's really good on corruptors.  Explosive arrow proc'd out can add some nice AoE for finishing off anything left alive.

Edited March 23, 2020 by josh1622

[Frosticus]

if fire and ice are off the table you want rad. 

it has the very heavy 1-2 combo of proton+ cosmic. You'll want procs in these.

 

This can put bosses right into scourge range where you leverage xray/nutrino

[Uun]

5 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Some additional notes:

• Sonic's resist debuffs on are better on a Defender, so any minor advantage you might imagine from having greater damage dealt towards the end of the health bar is overwhelmed by the fact that you've got 33% more -resist from the Defender version of the attack.
• Ice Blast is the prototypical 'Corruptor set'. Water and Fire (both with Rains) might make an appearance here as well.
• Corruptors aren't very good.

To amplify this last point, let's consider the situation where the Corruptor version of your build is better than the Defender version:

1. Fighting a target with very high health compared to the size of attacks (i.e. AV/GM)
2. Having sufficient buffs to put you at the +damage cap
3. Not having -resist debuffs that are better on a Defender
4. You don't care about defenses.

If you don't hit all these points, the Defender version will almost certainly out-damage the Corruptor due to the larger values on support/pool powers and greater build flexibility. However, if you do hit all those points, then a Blaster will out-damage your Corruptor.

The math doesn't support you. Corruptor damage scale is 0.75 vs. 0.65 for a defender (i.e., 15.4% more damage). Assuming the defender has a 30% -resist debuff while the corruptor has 22.5% (i.e., 33% more -resist), Even with the defender's 33% higher debuff, it can't make up for the lower damage scale. The corruptor does 8.73% more damage before scourge is factored in.

 

Defender:  0.65 x 1.30 = 0.845

Corruptor: 0.75 x 1.225 = 0.91875

 

On top of this, corruptors get a higher damage cap (500% vs. 400%) and can skip the tier 1 blast.

 

That said, of course a blaster will out damage a corruptor. It's not even close.

[Darkir]

On 3/22/2020 at 3:29 AM, Jono265 said:

I also don't want to make a fire/, ice/, or water/

Well two of those are kind of the best with it. Essentially, things that deal a lot of damage and/or have a rain benefit the most from scourge. Ice/ is great for scourge because it has two rains. Fire is great because the base damage on many of the powers is so high and the DoTs help you get to 50% HP quicker.

 

Now, because those don't seem to be an option for you because you already played those sets, I would suggest Rad/. It has very good AOE and pretty good ST and you can add in some Achilles procs too.

 

I'd also consider DP just because it has a lot of quick hitting attacks and you can get a lot of FF recharge procs from it. 

 

To get the most out of scourge I would pair them with Kinetics.

For a Rad/Kin build I would do this:

Spoiler

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Radiation Blast
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: X-Ray Beam -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(21), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(36), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(36), Pnc-Heal(36)
Level 2: Irradiate -- SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprScrBls-Rchg/+End(5), Dmg-I(15), AchHee-ResDeb%(50)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 8: Proton Volley -- StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(A), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx(9), StnoftheM-Dmg/ActRdx/Rchg(9), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), StnoftheM-Dam%(11)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-EndRdx(13), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(15), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(37)
Level 14: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(50)
Level 16: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctArm-ResDam(17), RctArm-EndRdx(19), GldArm-3defTpProc(19), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(21)
Level 18: Cosmic Burst -- SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(37), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(40)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 22: Weave -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(23), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), RedFrt-Def(25), RedFrt-EndRdx(25), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(34)
Level 24: Spirit Ward -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 26: Neutron Bomb -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(27), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Rgn-Knock%(29)
Level 28: Arcane Bolt -- SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(46)
Level 30: Rune of Protection -- RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), RctArm-EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctArm-ResDam(31)
Level 32: Atomic Blast -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Arm-Acc/Rchg(33), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Arm-Dam%(34), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(42), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RedFrt-Def(42), RedFrt-EndRdx(43), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(43)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Transference -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Web Cocoon -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(45), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(45), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(45)
Level 47: Repel -- EndRdx-I(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(48), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(48)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(48), Mrc-Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(46)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

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DP/Kin:

Spoiler

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Dual Wield -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(3), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 1: Transfusion -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(7), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(9), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), NmnCnv-Heal(11), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11)
Level 2: Empty Clips -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), FrcFdb-Rechg%(15)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 6: Swap Ammo 
Level 8: Bullet Rain -- SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprScrBls-Rchg/+End(25), FrcFdb-Rechg%(27)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc-I(A)
Level 12: Boxing -- TchofDth-Acc/Dmg(A), TchofDth-Dmg/EndRdx(17), TchofDth-Dmg/Rchg(27), TchofDth-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), TchofDth-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), TchofDth-Dam%(43)
Level 14: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(29), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), GldArm-3defTpProc(31)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(23)
Level 18: Executioner's Shot -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(19), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(46)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(39), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(40), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RedFrt-Def(43), RedFrt-EndRdx(43)
Level 24: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(37), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(39), GssSynFr--Build%(39)
Level 26: Piercing Rounds -- SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(31), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(42)
Level 28: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(33)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Hail of Bullets -- SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(36), FrcFdb-Rechg%(36)
Level 35: Transference -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A)
Level 41: Charged Armor -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(45), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 44: Increase Density -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(48), UnbGrd-Max HP%(50)
Level 47: Repel -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(48)
Level 49: Inertial Reduction -- BlsoftheZ-Travel(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(48), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(50)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(13)
Level 6: Chemical Ammunition 
Level 6: Cryo Ammunition 
Level 6: Incendiary Ammunition 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 0: Marshal 
Level 0: Invader 
Level 0: High Pain Threshold 
Level 0: Born In Battle 
Level 1: Quick Form 
------------

 

 

[Hjarki]

16 minutes ago, Uun said:

The math doesn't support you. Corruptor damage scale is 0.75 vs. 0.65 for a defender (i.e., 15.4% more damage). Assuming the defender has a 30% -resist debuff while the corruptor has 22.5% (i.e., 33% more -resist), Even with the defender's 33% higher debuff, it can't make up for the lower damage scale. The corruptor does 8.73% more damage before scourge is factored in.

If you take all the considerations I listed into play, a Corruptor will deal approximately 90% more damage than a Defender.

 

However, this is only basic damage - it doesn't include procs. Consider a power like Ice Bolt. It does 36.15 damage. Each basic proc you slot into it will average 12.56 damage. With 4 procs, that would be 36.15 from basic damage and 50 from procs.

 

If we take both the Corruptor and the Defender to cap with perfect Scourge, we end up with 195 + 50 vs. 271 + 50. This is about a 30% advantage for the Corruptor - significantly less than the 90% damage they'd enjoy if you were just considering basic damage.

 

The other issue that emerges is that Defenders get better everything except damage. Weave is 5% on a Defender, 4.25% on a Corruptor. Maneuvers is 3.5% on a Defender, 2.63% on a Corruptor. And so forth. The consequence of all this minor advantages is that while Defenders can franken-slot all of their powers for maximum damage, Corruptors are normally forced to straight slot them for set bonuses to overcome the disparity in defenses. If you compare a straight-slotted Corruptor vs. a franken-slotted Defender using the above numbers at the damage cap, you end up with a 10% advantage while at the damage cap and gaining the best possible advantage from Scourge - which is about the disparity you'd see in terms of resistance debuffs.

 

In actual play - where you are rarely at the damage cap, Scourge rarely gives even close to its full benefit, etc. - then you end up with the reality that virtually all the top combinations of Blast Set + Support Set are Defender builds.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Hjarki

[Darkir]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

The math doesn't support you. Corruptor damage scale is 0.75 vs. 0.65 for a defender (i.e., 15.4% more damage). Assuming the defender has a 30% -resist debuff while the corruptor has 22.5% (i.e., 33% more -resist), Even with the defender's 33% higher debuff, it can't make up for the lower damage scale. The corruptor does 8.73% more damage before scourge is factored in.

 

Defender:  0.65 x 1.30 = 0.845

Corruptor: 0.75 x 1.225 = 0.91875

 

On top of this, corruptors get a higher damage cap (500% vs. 400%) and can skip the tier 1 blast.

 

That said, of course a blaster will out damage a corruptor. It's not even close.

If you factor in the vigilance buff while soloing, the defender will outdmg the corruptor before scourge. With scourge is very difficult to calculate for sure, especially in a more real world application. Now all of this is also dependent on sets and epic pools, if they both take dark mastery's soul drain then the corruptor comes out ahead more often than not if they can get around 5 mobs per drain. /dark, /cold, and /storm are exceptions to this because their res debuffs have the same value as the corruptors and so the corruptor wins. 

 

The real problem for corruptors is the extra slots that defenders get when both go for softcapped defense and high res. The defender gets to spend those slots on procs and that ends up giving them the edge even when soul drain is taken into consideration for most pairings.

 

All that said a solo fire/kin corruptor should outdps an x/x solo blaster and have the defenses to live that the blaster would lack. Every other set besides kinetics though will be blown out of the water by a blaster like you said.

 

The corruptor will maintain the damage cap at all times going through a map and have scourge on top of that. Let's say the blaster with aim, build up, and a gaussian proc appropriately slotted can keep an average +200% dmg buff on throughout the map (with enhancements adding 100%). The corruptor will also likely have more recharge due to siphon speed and repel with an FF proc going off occasionally, but I will not include that for this calculation. 

 

Corruptor= 75x5=375

Blaster= 112.5x3=337.5

 

If the only thing you care about is solo damage, go kinetics on a corruptor. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Darkir

[Phalanx480bc]

8 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

If you take all the considerations I listed into play, a Corruptor will deal approximately 90% more damage than a Defender.

 

However, this is only basic damage - it doesn't include procs. Consider a power like Ice Bolt. It does 36.15 damage. Each basic proc you slot into it will average 12.56 damage. With 4 procs, that would be 36.15 from basic damage and 50 from procs.

 

If we take both the Corruptor and the Defender to cap with perfect Scourge, we end up with 195 + 50 vs. 271 + 50. This is about a 30% advantage for the Corruptor - significantly less than the 90% damage they'd enjoy if you were just considering basic damage.

 

The other issue that emerges is that Defenders get better everything except damage. Weave is 5% on a Defender, 4.25% on a Corruptor. Maneuvers is 3.5% on a Defender, 2.63% on a Corruptor. And so forth. The consequence of all this minor advantages is that while Defenders can franken-slot all of their powers for maximum damage, Corruptors are normally forced to straight slot them for set bonuses to overcome the disparity in defenses. If you compare a straight-slotted Corruptor vs. a franken-slotted Defender using the above numbers at the damage cap, you end up with a 10% advantage while at the damage cap and gaining the best possible advantage from Scourge - which is about the disparity you'd see in terms of resistance debuffs.

 

In actual play - where you are rarely at the damage cap, Scourge rarely gives even close to its full benefit, etc. - then you end up with the reality that virtually all the top combinations of Blast Set + Support Set are Defender builds.

I think my only issue with your original post is that you stated "Corruptors aren't very good."  If your math is accurate and I have no reason to doubt it isn't, I think it simply shows that Corruptors are not better than Defenders, all things considered.  Which means they are not worse, either.  Unless your argument is that Defenders also "...aren't very good," then your argument begins to lose it's effectiveness.  Just pointing that out.

[Frosticus]

I think the issue is being exaggerated to a significant degree.

 

I will say this though, I prefer defenders solo. Their damage solo is "close enough" to a corrs, but they are quite a bit easier to build and the low level game flies by so getting attacks later is minor.

 

I prefer corrs in teams. External buffs benefit them more due to higher base damage plus vigilance is useless (mostly) on teams. Scourge is hard to quantify but everyone can see you are doing it. No one cares on a team that your weave is stronger haha, and the modifier differences between buffs and debuffs is fairly meaningless in a full group. 

 

 

[Hjarki]

45 minutes ago, Phalanx480bc said:

I think my only issue with your original post is that you stated "Corruptors aren't very good."  If your math is accurate and I have no reason to doubt it isn't, I think it simply shows that Corruptors are not better than Defenders, all things considered.  Which means they are not worse, either.  Unless your argument is that Defenders also "...aren't very good," then your argument begins to lose it's effectiveness.  Just pointing that out.

I say "Corruptors aren't very good" because they suffer from what might be termed 'middle child' syndrome. For whatever concept you might come up with, it's probably better as some other archetype. Either you're going to benefit from the Defender's advantage in buffs/debuffs/secondary effects or you're going to benefit from the Blaster's advantage in blasting. You might even find Controller works better for you. The conditions under which Corruptors truly thrive tend to be very narrow and there are few - if any - true 'power builds' for Corruptors.

 

However, as an example of what I consider a 'decent' Corruptor build, consider:

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7

https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Magic Corruptor

Primary Power Set: Archery

Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Flight

Power Pool: Speed

Power Pool: Leadership

Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

 

Villain Profile:

Level 1: Aimed Shot

• (A) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Recharge/Chance for Negative Energy Damage: Level 50
  
• (3) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
  
• (3) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  
• (5) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  
• (5) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  
• (7) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  
  

Level 1: Infrigidate

• (A) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage: Level 30
  
• (7) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage: Level 50
  
• (9) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 20
  
• (9) Impeded Swiftness - Chance of Damage(Smashing): Level 30
  
  

Level 2: Ice Shield

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  
  

Level 4: Kick

• (A) Pulverizing Fisticuffs - Accuracy/Damage: Level 25
  
• (43) Pulverizing Fisticuffs - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 25
  
• (43) Pulverizing Fisticuffs - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 25
  
  

Level 6: Hover

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range: Level 50
  
• (42) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (42) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (50) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  
  

Level 8: Aim

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
  

Level 10: Glacial Shield

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  
  

Level 12: Explosive Arrow

• (A) Ragnarok - Damage: Level 50
  
• (13) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (13) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy): Level 50
  
• (15) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 20
  
• (15) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge: Level 50
  
• (17) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown: Level 50
  
  

Level 14: Tough

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
  
• (17) Reactive Armor - Resistance: Level 40
  
• (19) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
  
• (39) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All): Level 50
  
• (40) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection: Level 30
  
• (46) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
  
  

Level 16: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  
• (19) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  
• (25) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (36) Kismet - Accuracy +6%: Level 30
  
• (37) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  
• (37) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All): Level 50
  
  

Level 18: Ranged Shot

• (A) Apocalypse - Damage: Level 50
  
• (29) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (29) Decimation - Chance of Build Up: Level 40
  
• (31) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic): Level 50
  
• (31) Sting of the Manticore - Chance of Damage(Toxic): Level 50
  
• (31) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 50
  
  

Level 20: Arctic Fog

• (A) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage: Level 50
  
• (21) Reactive Defenses - Defense: Level 50
  
• (21) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (23) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP: Level 50
  
• (23) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance: Level 50
  
• (25) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
  
  

Level 22: Super Speed

• (A) Celerity - +Stealth: Level 50
  
• (37) Celerity - Endurance: Level 50
  
• (43) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (50) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
  
  

Level 24: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
• (27) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
  

Level 26: Maneuvers

• (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (27) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  
  

Level 28: Tactics

• (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up: Level 50
  
• (33) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff: Level 50
  
• (33) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance: Level 50
  
  

Level 30: Fly

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
  
• (45) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 50
  
  

Level 32: Rain of Arrows

• (A) Superior Scourging Blast - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
  
• (33) Superior Scourging Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
  
• (34) Superior Scourging Blast - RechargeTime/PBAoE +End: Level 50
  
• (34) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (34) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime: Level 50
  
• (36) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  
  

Level 35: Benumb

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
• (36) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
  

Level 38: Sleet

• (A) Superior Scourging Blast - Damage/RechargeTime: Level 50
  
• (39) Superior Scourging Blast - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime: Level 50
  
• (39) Superior Scourging Blast - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
  
  

Level 41: Heat Loss

• (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod: Level 50
  
• (42) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge: Level 50
  
• (46) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
• (50) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
  
  

Level 44: Scorpion Shield

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  
• (45) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  
• (45) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (46) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  
  

Level 47: Focused Accuracy

• (A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff: Level 50
  
• (48) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (48) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  
• (48) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  
  

Level 49: Afterburner

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  
  

Level 2: Health

• (A) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40
  
• (11) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
  
• (11) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance: Level 50
  
• (40) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb: Level 50
  
  

Level 2: Stamina

• (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
  
• (40) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
  
  

------------

This exploits the fact that much of Cold Domination is basically the same in terms of the important features between Defender and Corruptor while Archery tends to be a 'Corruptor-friendly' set with a Rain and a second attack better than the first. However, it's only slightly higher damage than the Defender version while struggling a great deal more to hit defensive breakpoints. This sort of build only really pays off if you're going into a team/league situation where players are actually supporting one another to beat tough objectives rather than just splitting off and doing their own thing.

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

If you take all the considerations I listed into play, a Corruptor will deal approximately 90% more damage than a Defender.

 

However, this is only basic damage - it doesn't include procs. Consider a power like Ice Bolt. It does 36.15 damage. Each basic proc you slot into it will average 12.56 damage. With 4 procs, that would be 36.15 from basic damage and 50 from procs.

 

If we take both the Corruptor and the Defender to cap with perfect Scourge, we end up with 195 + 50 vs. 271 + 50. This is about a 30% advantage for the Corruptor - significantly less than the 90% damage they'd enjoy if you were just considering basic damage.

 

The other issue that emerges is that Defenders get better everything except damage. Weave is 5% on a Defender, 4.25% on a Corruptor. Maneuvers is 3.5% on a Defender, 2.63% on a Corruptor. And so forth. The consequence of all this minor advantages is that while Defenders can franken-slot all of their powers for maximum damage, Corruptors are normally forced to straight slot them for set bonuses to overcome the disparity in defenses. If you compare a straight-slotted Corruptor vs. a franken-slotted Defender using the above numbers at the damage cap, you end up with a 10% advantage while at the damage cap and gaining the best possible advantage from Scourge - which is about the disparity you'd see in terms of resistance debuffs.

 

In actual play - where you are rarely at the damage cap, Scourge rarely gives even close to its full benefit, etc. - then you end up with the reality that virtually all the top combinations of Blast Set + Support Set are Defender builds.

 

This is why procs need to be nerfed into the ground.  The sooner the better.

[Darkir]

30 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I say "Corruptors aren't very good" because they suffer from what might be termed 'middle child' syndrome. For whatever concept you might come up with, it's probably better as some other archetype. Either you're going to benefit from the Defender's advantage in buffs/debuffs/secondary effects or you're going to benefit from the Blaster's advantage in blasting. You might even find Controller works better for you. The conditions under which Corruptors truly thrive tend to be very narrow and there are few - if any - true 'power builds' for Corruptors.

I completely agree that corruptors do suffer from a kind of middle child syndrome for most sets/pairings. But we are once more veering into "corruptor vs. defender" territory and we've all had this conversation before (even with many of the same people, hi everyone ^_^). Yes, Corruptors are in a weird place in the game at the moment, but lets all get back to the original posters question about what works best with scourge specifically. 

 

30 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

This exploits the fact that much of Cold Domination is basically the same in terms of the important features between Defender and Corruptor while Archery tends to be a 'Corruptor-friendly' set with a Rain and a second attack better than the first. However, it's only slightly higher damage than the Defender version while struggling a great deal more to hit defensive breakpoints. This sort of build only really pays off if you're going into a team/league situation where players are actually supporting one another to beat tough objectives rather than just splitting off and doing their own thing.

This should be a good pairing for a scourge focused corruptor. I think you can get more out of the build by going rune of protection over fly. I spent a little time reworking this. You get a lot more recharge and have the added res and mez protection from rune of protection when you need it.

 

Spoiler

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Archery
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Aimed Shot -- SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(A), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- ShlBrk-%Dam(A), TchofLadG-%Dam(7), AchHee-ResDeb%(9), ImpSwf-Dam%(9)
Level 2: Ice Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 4: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Spirit Ward -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 8: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Glacial Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Explosive Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(13), PstBls-Dam%(13), ExpStr-Dam%(15), FrcFdb-Rechg%(15), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(17)
Level 14: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctArm-ResDam(19), RctArm-EndRdx(39), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(40), GldArm-3defTpProc(40)
Level 16: Weave -- RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(A), RedFrt-Def(19), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(25), RedFrt-EndRdx(36), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(37)
Level 18: Ranged Shot -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Dcm-Build%(29), GldJvl-Dam%(31), StnoftheM-Dam%(31), Apc-Dam%(31)
Level 20: Arctic Fog -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(21), Rct-Def/EndRdx(21), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Rct-Def/Rchg(23), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 22: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(36)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 26: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(43), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(43), Ksm-ToHit+(43)
Level 28: Arcane Bolt -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(33)
Level 30: Rune of Protection -- RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), RctArm-EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctArm-ResDam(42)
Level 32: Rain of Arrows -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprScrBls-Rchg/+End(34), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(34), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 35: Benumb -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(37)
Level 38: Sleet -- SprScrBls-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Heat Loss -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46), Acc-I(46)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(A), RedFrt-Def(45), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(45), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RedFrt-EndRdx(46), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50)
Level 47: Web Cocoon -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(48), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(48), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(48)
Level 49: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(50), GssSynFr--Build%(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(11), Mrc-Rcvry+(11)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(40)
------------

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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Darkir

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

This is why procs need to be nerfed into the ground.  The sooner the better.

I guess. 

Corrs and defs have the exact same proc opportunities though. Corrs even have an extra purple damage proc which is no laughing matter given how limited ranged blast sets are for procs.

If someone wanted to tell me that a proc boosted by freezing rain at 35% debuff vs a proc boosted by freezing rain at 30% is causing corrs to suck compared to defenders well I'm not sure what to say about that.

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Darkir said:

This should be a good pairing for a scourge focused corruptor. I think you can get more out of the build by going rune of protection over fly. I spent a little time reworking this. You get a lot more recharge and have the added res and mez protection from rune of protection when you need it.

Losing Focused Accuracy drops Infrigidate and Explosive Arrow below hit cap vs. +3. I'd move a slot from Super Speed (the set bonus is over Pos/Neg Def soft-cap) to Infrigidate for IO Accuracy (the existing sets don't combine well and the HOs don't have enough accuracy) and do Positron's Blast A/D + Ragnarok D for the two non-proc slots in Explosive Arrow.

 

Replacing a proc in Ranged Shot with Experienced Marksman is also necessary to retain insta-snipe.

[Apparition]

9 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I guess. 

Corrs and defs have the exact same proc opportunities though. Corrs even have an extra purple damage proc which is no laughing matter given how limited ranged blast sets are for procs.

If someone wanted to tell me that a proc boosted by freezing rain at 35% debuff vs a proc boosted by freezing rain at 30% is causing corrs to suck compared to defenders well I'm not sure what to say about that.

 

It's a combination of things.  As you said, Defenders are easier to build for.  They have more wiggle room, leaving them with more slots to play with that they can load up with procs.  Add that onto the stronger debuff values, and you have a problem.

[Frosticus]

35 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

It's a combination of things.  As you said, Defenders are easier to build for.  They have more wiggle room, leaving them with more slots to play with that they can load up with procs.  Add that onto the stronger debuff values, and you have a problem.

What problem?

 

A corr built the same as the defender ends up doing similar damage solo* (more vs EB's +), while being less survivable (corrs do get a smidgen more base hp though), but does WAY more damage under team buffs because of the higher damage cap, scourge and the same procs.

 

*5 proc dominate with freezing rain, assault, aim (solo)

def = 576

corr = 546

If you could notice a difference of an avg. 30 damage when 5 procs are firing off then that is impressive. 

 

Pick a corr if you want a decent solo character that can do  ok to terrific damage in a team while providing meaningful buff/debuff

Pick a def if you want a bit more decent solo character that can do low to mediocre damage in a team while providing more meaningful buff/debuff. 

 

That said, I've always felt (and said) that corrs should have stronger offensive buffs that defenders. Aim (assault etc) should be stronger on corrs, while defensive buffs (shields, weave maneuvers, etc) should be stronger on defenders.  It would eliminate much of the perceived issue of "offender" builds encroaching on corruptor damage (while solo).