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What primaries benefit the most from scourge?

King Kog

By King Kog
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King Kog

King Kog

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I'm wanting to make a corr to round out my toon collection, but I want to make one that really benefits from the passive.
UNFORTUNATELY, I also don't want to make a fire/, ice/, or water/. (I've got a /fire blaster, ice/ tank, and water/ sentinel already, so thematically I've done those).
 

Edited by Jono265
King Kog

King Kog

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  On 3/22/2020 at 11:53 AM, oOStaticOo said:

I would recommend either Son/Time or Psi/Time.  

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How do Son and Psi interact with Scourge? I know Fire/* and Ice/* do well because of their rain powers, and Water/* with whirlpool, but I'm not sure about Son/* and Psi/*

Edited by Jono265
oOStaticOo

oOStaticOo

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Scourge just does extra damage as the enemy gets weaker.  Sonic lowers the Resistance of enemies so therefore granting you more damage the lower their resists get on top of double damage from Scourge.  Psi is one of the least resisted damage types except for when it comes to some Mechanical enemies.  So therefore Psi will already have high damage capabilities with Scourge just adding to it.

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Tryna_Dugid

Tryna_Dugid

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i think archery, dark blast, assault rifle, rad blast, elec blast and dual pistols all benefit greatly from scourge. lots of fast recharging DoT available to you in those sets. 

Edited by Tryna_Dugid
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King Kog

King Kog

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  On 3/23/2020 at 4:29 AM, Tryna_Dugid said:

i think archery, dark blast, assault rifle, rad blast, elec blast and dual pistols all benefit greatly from scourge. lots of fast recharging DoT available to you in those sets. 

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Oooh Archery! Is rain of arrows a pseudpet?
It was my understanding that most DoTs scourge chance is calculated at cast, and not recalculated over time?
Or are DoTs preferable because they'll (essentially) tick twice as fast once they're in the scourge range?

seresibyl2

seresibyl2

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  On 3/23/2020 at 11:44 AM, Jono265 said:

Oooh Archery! Is rain of arrows a pseudpet?
It was my understanding that most DoTs scourge chance is calculated at cast, and not recalculated over time?
Or are DoTs preferable because they'll (essentially) tick twice as fast once they're in the scourge range?

Expand  

I don't think it's calculated at cast. 

Phalanx480bc

Phalanx480bc

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I believe any attack with ticks has a greater chance to scourge.  I could be entirely wrong, of course, but things like Ice's Frost Breath and Ice Storm, Fire's Fire Breath and Rain, Dark's Gloom, Sonic's Scream, etc. feel like they have a chance to scourge more.

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KelvinKole

KelvinKole

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I think water would be the clear winner here. Whirlpool is a rain like power. Steam spray is a huge, wide, powerful DoT. Geyser has a Dot component. Even dehydrate has a small Dot. 

 

Pair it with storm. 

Hjarki

Hjarki

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Sets with Rains are very 'Corruptor friendly'. These summon pseudo-pets that have a chance to scourge on every tick all the way down the health bar, almost perfectly optimizing Scourge.

 

Sets with DoT are 'Corruptor unfriendly'. Unlike Rains, the check to Scourge only occurs when you activate the power. If it is successful, the DoT will then Scourge on every tick. Otherwise, it won't Scourge at all. What this generally means is that your follow-on attacks have a lower chance to Scourge than they otherwise would - because the DoT has not yet finished dealing all of its damage.

 

Small/fast attacks are better as well. The 'chunkier' your damage becomes, the less likely it is to Scourge because the check for Scourge is based on what the target's health total was before the attack hit. For example, if your attack deals 50% of a target's health, Scourge is pointless - any attack where it Scourged, the attack would have killed the target without Scourge.

 

Some additional notes:

  • Sonic's resist debuffs on are better on a Defender, so any minor advantage you might imagine from having greater damage dealt towards the end of the health bar is overwhelmed by the fact that you've got 33% more -resist from the Defender version of the attack.
  • Ice Blast is the prototypical 'Corruptor set'. Water and Fire (both with Rains) might make an appearance here as well.
  • Corruptors aren't very good.

To amplify this last point, let's consider the situation where the Corruptor version of your build is better than the Defender version:

  1. Fighting a target with very high health compared to the size of attacks (i.e. AV/GM)
  2. Having sufficient buffs to put you at the +damage cap
  3. Not having -resist debuffs that are better on a Defender
  4. You don't care about defenses.

If you don't hit all these points, the Defender version will almost certainly out-damage the Corruptor due to the larger values on support/pool powers and greater build flexibility. However, if you do hit all those points, then a Blaster will out-damage your Corruptor.

 

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Pzn

Pzn

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Posted (edited)
  On 3/23/2020 at 11:44 AM, Jono265 said:

Oooh Archery! Is rain of arrows a pseudpet?
It was my understanding that most DoTs scourge chance is calculated at cast, and not recalculated over time?
Or are DoTs preferable because they'll (essentially) tick twice as fast once they're in the scourge range?

Expand  

In the case of rain of arrows I believe it is a pseudopet but it still scourges.  Each tick of damage from rain of arrows recalculates chance for scourge damage.  If you use rain of arrows on full health enemies you'll still see scourge on the last couple ticks if you get them below 50%.  It's really good on corruptors.  Explosive arrow proc'd out can add some nice AoE for finishing off anything left alive.

Edited by josh1622
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Uun

Uun

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  On 3/23/2020 at 2:26 PM, Hjarki said:

Some additional notes:

  • Sonic's resist debuffs on are better on a Defender, so any minor advantage you might imagine from having greater damage dealt towards the end of the health bar is overwhelmed by the fact that you've got 33% more -resist from the Defender version of the attack.
  • Ice Blast is the prototypical 'Corruptor set'. Water and Fire (both with Rains) might make an appearance here as well.
  • Corruptors aren't very good.

To amplify this last point, let's consider the situation where the Corruptor version of your build is better than the Defender version:

  1. Fighting a target with very high health compared to the size of attacks (i.e. AV/GM)
  2. Having sufficient buffs to put you at the +damage cap
  3. Not having -resist debuffs that are better on a Defender
  4. You don't care about defenses.

If you don't hit all these points, the Defender version will almost certainly out-damage the Corruptor due to the larger values on support/pool powers and greater build flexibility. However, if you do hit all those points, then a Blaster will out-damage your Corruptor.

Expand  

The math doesn't support you. Corruptor damage scale is 0.75 vs. 0.65 for a defender (i.e., 15.4% more damage). Assuming the defender has a 30% -resist debuff while the corruptor has 22.5% (i.e., 33% more -resist), Even with the defender's 33% higher debuff, it can't make up for the lower damage scale. The corruptor does 8.73% more damage before scourge is factored in.

 

Defender:  0.65 x 1.30 = 0.845

Corruptor: 0.75 x 1.225 = 0.91875

 

On top of this, corruptors get a higher damage cap (500% vs. 400%) and can skip the tier 1 blast.

 

That said, of course a blaster will out damage a corruptor. It's not even close.

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Uuniverse

Darkir

Darkir

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  On 3/22/2020 at 10:29 AM, Jono265 said:

I also don't want to make a fire/, ice/, or water/

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Well two of those are kind of the best with it. Essentially, things that deal a lot of damage and/or have a rain benefit the most from scourge. Ice/ is great for scourge because it has two rains. Fire is great because the base damage on many of the powers is so high and the DoTs help you get to 50% HP quicker.

 

Now, because those don't seem to be an option for you because you already played those sets, I would suggest Rad/. It has very good AOE and pretty good ST and you can add in some Achilles procs too.

 

I'd also consider DP just because it has a lot of quick hitting attacks and you can get a lot of FF recharge procs from it. 

 

To get the most out of scourge I would pair them with Kinetics.

For a Rad/Kin build I would do this:

  Reveal hidden contents


DP/Kin:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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Hjarki

Hjarki

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  On 3/23/2020 at 8:11 PM, Uun said:

The math doesn't support you. Corruptor damage scale is 0.75 vs. 0.65 for a defender (i.e., 15.4% more damage). Assuming the defender has a 30% -resist debuff while the corruptor has 22.5% (i.e., 33% more -resist), Even with the defender's 33% higher debuff, it can't make up for the lower damage scale. The corruptor does 8.73% more damage before scourge is factored in.

Expand  

If you take all the considerations I listed into play, a Corruptor will deal approximately 90% more damage than a Defender.

 

However, this is only basic damage - it doesn't include procs. Consider a power like Ice Bolt. It does 36.15 damage. Each basic proc you slot into it will average 12.56 damage. With 4 procs, that would be 36.15 from basic damage and 50 from procs.

 

If we take both the Corruptor and the Defender to cap with perfect Scourge, we end up with 195 + 50 vs. 271 + 50. This is about a 30% advantage for the Corruptor - significantly less than the 90% damage they'd enjoy if you were just considering basic damage.

 

The other issue that emerges is that Defenders get better everything except damage. Weave is 5% on a Defender, 4.25% on a Corruptor. Maneuvers is 3.5% on a Defender, 2.63% on a Corruptor. And so forth. The consequence of all this minor advantages is that while Defenders can franken-slot all of their powers for maximum damage, Corruptors are normally forced to straight slot them for set bonuses to overcome the disparity in defenses. If you compare a straight-slotted Corruptor vs. a franken-slotted Defender using the above numbers at the damage cap, you end up with a 10% advantage while at the damage cap and gaining the best possible advantage from Scourge - which is about the disparity you'd see in terms of resistance debuffs.

 

In actual play - where you are rarely at the damage cap, Scourge rarely gives even close to its full benefit, etc. - then you end up with the reality that virtually all the top combinations of Blast Set + Support Set are Defender builds.

Edited by Hjarki
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Darkir

Darkir

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  On 3/23/2020 at 8:11 PM, Uun said:

The math doesn't support you. Corruptor damage scale is 0.75 vs. 0.65 for a defender (i.e., 15.4% more damage). Assuming the defender has a 30% -resist debuff while the corruptor has 22.5% (i.e., 33% more -resist), Even with the defender's 33% higher debuff, it can't make up for the lower damage scale. The corruptor does 8.73% more damage before scourge is factored in.

 

Defender:  0.65 x 1.30 = 0.845

Corruptor: 0.75 x 1.225 = 0.91875

 

On top of this, corruptors get a higher damage cap (500% vs. 400%) and can skip the tier 1 blast.

 

That said, of course a blaster will out damage a corruptor. It's not even close.

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If you factor in the vigilance buff while soloing, the defender will outdmg the corruptor before scourge. With scourge is very difficult to calculate for sure, especially in a more real world application. Now all of this is also dependent on sets and epic pools, if they both take dark mastery's soul drain then the corruptor comes out ahead more often than not if they can get around 5 mobs per drain. /dark, /cold, and /storm are exceptions to this because their res debuffs have the same value as the corruptors and so the corruptor wins. 

 

The real problem for corruptors is the extra slots that defenders get when both go for softcapped defense and high res. The defender gets to spend those slots on procs and that ends up giving them the edge even when soul drain is taken into consideration for most pairings.

 

All that said a solo fire/kin corruptor should outdps an x/x solo blaster and have the defenses to live that the blaster would lack. Every other set besides kinetics though will be blown out of the water by a blaster like you said.

 

The corruptor will maintain the damage cap at all times going through a map and have scourge on top of that. Let's say the blaster with aim, build up, and a gaussian proc appropriately slotted can keep an average +200% dmg buff on throughout the map (with enhancements adding 100%). The corruptor will also likely have more recharge due to siphon speed and repel with an FF proc going off occasionally, but I will not include that for this calculation. 

 

Corruptor= 75x5=375

Blaster= 112.5x3=337.5

 

If the only thing you care about is solo damage, go kinetics on a corruptor. 

Edited by Darkir
Phalanx480bc

Phalanx480bc

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  On 3/23/2020 at 8:26 PM, Hjarki said:

If you take all the considerations I listed into play, a Corruptor will deal approximately 90% more damage than a Defender.

 

However, this is only basic damage - it doesn't include procs. Consider a power like Ice Bolt. It does 36.15 damage. Each basic proc you slot into it will average 12.56 damage. With 4 procs, that would be 36.15 from basic damage and 50 from procs.

 

If we take both the Corruptor and the Defender to cap with perfect Scourge, we end up with 195 + 50 vs. 271 + 50. This is about a 30% advantage for the Corruptor - significantly less than the 90% damage they'd enjoy if you were just considering basic damage.

 

The other issue that emerges is that Defenders get better everything except damage. Weave is 5% on a Defender, 4.25% on a Corruptor. Maneuvers is 3.5% on a Defender, 2.63% on a Corruptor. And so forth. The consequence of all this minor advantages is that while Defenders can franken-slot all of their powers for maximum damage, Corruptors are normally forced to straight slot them for set bonuses to overcome the disparity in defenses. If you compare a straight-slotted Corruptor vs. a franken-slotted Defender using the above numbers at the damage cap, you end up with a 10% advantage while at the damage cap and gaining the best possible advantage from Scourge - which is about the disparity you'd see in terms of resistance debuffs.

 

In actual play - where you are rarely at the damage cap, Scourge rarely gives even close to its full benefit, etc. - then you end up with the reality that virtually all the top combinations of Blast Set + Support Set are Defender builds.

Expand  

I think my only issue with your original post is that you stated "Corruptors aren't very good."  If your math is accurate and I have no reason to doubt it isn't, I think it simply shows that Corruptors are not better than Defenders, all things considered.  Which means they are not worse, either.  Unless your argument is that Defenders also "...aren't very good," then your argument begins to lose it's effectiveness.  Just pointing that out.

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Frosticus

Frosticus

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I think the issue is being exaggerated to a significant degree.

 

I will say this though, I prefer defenders solo. Their damage solo is "close enough" to a corrs, but they are quite a bit easier to build and the low level game flies by so getting attacks later is minor.

 

I prefer corrs in teams. External buffs benefit them more due to higher base damage plus vigilance is useless (mostly) on teams. Scourge is hard to quantify but everyone can see you are doing it. No one cares on a team that your weave is stronger haha, and the modifier differences between buffs and debuffs is fairly meaningless in a full group. 

 

 

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Hjarki

Hjarki

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  On 3/23/2020 at 8:39 PM, Phalanx480bc said:

I think my only issue with your original post is that you stated "Corruptors aren't very good."  If your math is accurate and I have no reason to doubt it isn't, I think it simply shows that Corruptors are not better than Defenders, all things considered.  Which means they are not worse, either.  Unless your argument is that Defenders also "...aren't very good," then your argument begins to lose it's effectiveness.  Just pointing that out.

Expand  

I say "Corruptors aren't very good" because they suffer from what might be termed 'middle child' syndrome. For whatever concept you might come up with, it's probably better as some other archetype. Either you're going to benefit from the Defender's advantage in buffs/debuffs/secondary effects or you're going to benefit from the Blaster's advantage in blasting. You might even find Controller works better for you. The conditions under which Corruptors truly thrive tend to be very narrow and there are few - if any - true 'power builds' for Corruptors.

 

However, as an example of what I consider a 'decent' Corruptor build, consider:

  Reveal hidden contents

This exploits the fact that much of Cold Domination is basically the same in terms of the important features between Defender and Corruptor while Archery tends to be a 'Corruptor-friendly' set with a Rain and a second attack better than the first. However, it's only slightly higher damage than the Defender version while struggling a great deal more to hit defensive breakpoints. This sort of build only really pays off if you're going into a team/league situation where players are actually supporting one another to beat tough objectives rather than just splitting off and doing their own thing.

Apparition

Apparition

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  On 3/23/2020 at 8:26 PM, Hjarki said:

If you take all the considerations I listed into play, a Corruptor will deal approximately 90% more damage than a Defender.

 

However, this is only basic damage - it doesn't include procs. Consider a power like Ice Bolt. It does 36.15 damage. Each basic proc you slot into it will average 12.56 damage. With 4 procs, that would be 36.15 from basic damage and 50 from procs.

 

If we take both the Corruptor and the Defender to cap with perfect Scourge, we end up with 195 + 50 vs. 271 + 50. This is about a 30% advantage for the Corruptor - significantly less than the 90% damage they'd enjoy if you were just considering basic damage.

 

The other issue that emerges is that Defenders get better everything except damage. Weave is 5% on a Defender, 4.25% on a Corruptor. Maneuvers is 3.5% on a Defender, 2.63% on a Corruptor. And so forth. The consequence of all this minor advantages is that while Defenders can franken-slot all of their powers for maximum damage, Corruptors are normally forced to straight slot them for set bonuses to overcome the disparity in defenses. If you compare a straight-slotted Corruptor vs. a franken-slotted Defender using the above numbers at the damage cap, you end up with a 10% advantage while at the damage cap and gaining the best possible advantage from Scourge - which is about the disparity you'd see in terms of resistance debuffs.

 

In actual play - where you are rarely at the damage cap, Scourge rarely gives even close to its full benefit, etc. - then you end up with the reality that virtually all the top combinations of Blast Set + Support Set are Defender builds.

Expand  

 

This is why procs need to be nerfed into the ground.  The sooner the better.

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Darkir

Darkir

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  On 3/23/2020 at 10:02 PM, Hjarki said:

I say "Corruptors aren't very good" because they suffer from what might be termed 'middle child' syndrome. For whatever concept you might come up with, it's probably better as some other archetype. Either you're going to benefit from the Defender's advantage in buffs/debuffs/secondary effects or you're going to benefit from the Blaster's advantage in blasting. You might even find Controller works better for you. The conditions under which Corruptors truly thrive tend to be very narrow and there are few - if any - true 'power builds' for Corruptors.

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I completely agree that corruptors do suffer from a kind of middle child syndrome for most sets/pairings. But we are once more veering into "corruptor vs. defender" territory and we've all had this conversation before (even with many of the same people, hi everyone ^_^). Yes, Corruptors are in a weird place in the game at the moment, but lets all get back to the original posters question about what works best with scourge specifically. 

 

  On 3/23/2020 at 10:02 PM, Hjarki said:

This exploits the fact that much of Cold Domination is basically the same in terms of the important features between Defender and Corruptor while Archery tends to be a 'Corruptor-friendly' set with a Rain and a second attack better than the first. However, it's only slightly higher damage than the Defender version while struggling a great deal more to hit defensive breakpoints. This sort of build only really pays off if you're going into a team/league situation where players are actually supporting one another to beat tough objectives rather than just splitting off and doing their own thing.

Expand  

This should be a good pairing for a scourge focused corruptor. I think you can get more out of the build by going rune of protection over fly. I spent a little time reworking this. You get a lot more recharge and have the added res and mez protection from rune of protection when you need it.

 

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Edited by Darkir
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Frosticus

Frosticus

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  On 3/23/2020 at 10:10 PM, Apparition said:

 

This is why procs need to be nerfed into the ground.  The sooner the better.

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I guess. 

Corrs and defs have the exact same proc opportunities though. Corrs even have an extra purple damage proc which is no laughing matter given how limited ranged blast sets are for procs.


If someone wanted to tell me that a proc boosted by freezing rain at 35% debuff vs a proc boosted by freezing rain at 30% is causing corrs to suck compared to defenders well I'm not sure what to say about that.

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Hjarki

Hjarki

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  On 3/23/2020 at 10:33 PM, Darkir said:

This should be a good pairing for a scourge focused corruptor. I think you can get more out of the build by going rune of protection over fly. I spent a little time reworking this. You get a lot more recharge and have the added res and mez protection from rune of protection when you need it.

Expand  

Losing Focused Accuracy drops Infrigidate and Explosive Arrow below hit cap vs. +3. I'd move a slot from Super Speed (the set bonus is over Pos/Neg Def soft-cap) to Infrigidate for IO Accuracy (the existing sets don't combine well and the HOs don't have enough accuracy) and do Positron's Blast A/D + Ragnarok D for the two non-proc slots in Explosive Arrow.

 

Replacing a proc in Ranged Shot with Experienced Marksman is also necessary to retain insta-snipe.

Apparition

Apparition

Posted
Posted
  On 3/23/2020 at 11:57 PM, Frosticus said:

I guess. 

Corrs and defs have the exact same proc opportunities though. Corrs even have an extra purple damage proc which is no laughing matter given how limited ranged blast sets are for procs.


If someone wanted to tell me that a proc boosted by freezing rain at 35% debuff vs a proc boosted by freezing rain at 30% is causing corrs to suck compared to defenders well I'm not sure what to say about that.

Expand  

 

It's a combination of things.  As you said, Defenders are easier to build for.  They have more wiggle room, leaving them with more slots to play with that they can load up with procs.  Add that onto the stronger debuff values, and you have a problem.

Frosticus

Frosticus

Posted
Posted
  On 3/24/2020 at 12:12 AM, Apparition said:

 

It's a combination of things.  As you said, Defenders are easier to build for.  They have more wiggle room, leaving them with more slots to play with that they can load up with procs.  Add that onto the stronger debuff values, and you have a problem.

Expand  

What problem?

 

A corr built the same as the defender ends up doing similar damage solo* (more vs EB's +), while being less survivable (corrs do get a smidgen more base hp though), but does WAY more damage under team buffs because of the higher damage cap, scourge and the same procs.

 

*5 proc dominate with freezing rain, assault, aim (solo)

def = 576

corr = 546

If you could notice a difference of an avg. 30 damage when 5 procs are firing off then that is impressive. 

 

Pick a corr if you want a decent solo character that can do  ok to terrific damage in a team while providing meaningful buff/debuff

Pick a def if you want a bit more decent solo character that can do low to mediocre damage in a team while providing more meaningful buff/debuff. 

 

That said, I've always felt (and said) that corrs should have stronger offensive buffs that defenders. Aim (assault etc) should be stronger on corrs, while defensive buffs (shields, weave maneuvers, etc) should be stronger on defenders.  It would eliminate much of the perceived issue of "offender" builds encroaching on corruptor damage (while solo). 

 

 

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