Weekly Discussion 44: Arachnos Soldiers

[blue4333]

>What would you like to see changed?

Can we get waist capes for male widows? The default Widow VEAT costume looks really empty without a waist cape. 

[rolandgrey]

The Arachnos Soldier was what I was expecting when I thought of "Epic" Archetype.  The Kheldian was an extremely thematic, story-linked archetype.  It was made to be balanced with the game, and in doing that, the original devs overcorrected and made a pair of cumbersome archetypes that take a LONG time to even BEGIN to feel powerful.  Not so with the Arachnos Soldier.  Wolf Spider or Blood Widow, then Bane, Crab, Night or Fortunata, it doesn't matter.  You feel like you can kick butt right off the bat.

To begin with, it has what the Kheldians lack: MEZ PROTECTION.  These are clearly frontline ATs, what with their combination of medium range blasts, a generous helping of melee attacks and a nice combination of defensive and resistant powers, it only makes sense that archetypes meant to be in the thick of battle have Mez Protection.

 

After that, the Arachnos Soldiers have excellent base team synergy, with a smattering of archetype-based Leadership powers that they can then link up with the standard Leadership Pool.  This creates a stacked Leadership effect that only becomes MORE pronounced as other players bring in their buffs.  A team of Arachnos Soldiers becomes a supremely viable, even overwhelming, attack team.  It's much more effective than the Kheldians, which for a long time couldn't even synergize with each other, and even when they did, the effect wasn't particularly effective (10% Recharge Slow Resistance?  Yaaaaaay...  So, with a team of Kheldians, no glue will keep us from shooting back and THAT'S IT).

Everything after that is gravy.  Bane and Crab Spiders get robots, explosives and the Venom Grenade, adding elements to the fight the game, quite frankly, wasn't designed to deal with.  Night Widows and Fortunatas gain Stalker-like sneak attacks and more team buffs.  Each version of the archetypes operates in different manners as well, with Bane Spiders performing like Rambo, Crabs are walking weapons platforms, Night Widows are stealthy assassins and Fortunatas are team leaders.

 

It's an absolute thrill to play these guys.

 

That said...  The only real drawbacks I can think of are cosmetic.  The crab spider backpack, for instance, is sorely limited.  It would have been nice to see alternative weapons systems that make use of the technology or architecture (rocket launchers, Rikti blasters, heck, even the Meat Doctor Backpack).  Instead, every "supervillain costume" of the Crab Spiders uses the same Arachnos-labeled Crab Backpack.  You can't even get rid of the Arachnos logo!  Every Bane Spider uses the Arachnos rifles ONLY.  If it weren't for the Celestial Hammer, they'd only use Arachnos Maces, too.  I get the power animations can't change, but that can be handwaved anyway.  The weapons options being so severely limited REALLY harms the immersion factor, especially when the characters are ostensibly being incognito in their non-Arachnos outfits.  I get the options being restricted in the Arachnos Uniform outfits, but the non-uniform outfits should really have their options opened up.

And that last point brings me to the last thing that bothers me about the Arachnos soldiers.  Their non-uniform outfits are entirely divorced from their uniform outfit.  This means you better not have changed your height slider on your initial outfit, or you're in for a slightly jarring camera shift every time you change to another outfit.  Even if you did see a surgeon to change your initial costumes, of which for the first six you need to start entirely from scratch, you'd best have remembered what you set your height to.  Changing costumes shouldn't be such a roller coaster ride.

[Neiska]

Been waiting for this AT discussion for a long time! My comments are only about Crabbers, I have zero playtime with the Bane spiders.

 

>How do they compare with other damaging/Survival ATs?

 

Will split this up into three parts - 

- Their personal damage is "alright", depending on the circumstance. But I would rate it under par with most other ATs. They do hit many targets, but not for that much damage even after -res debuffs are applied. Their attack powers are moderately quick to use (except for omega maneuvers) but stuggle to keep up with other AT's "damage per activation". This means on paper, a Crab Soldier might look quite good. But in paractice, they struggle. I would rate their damage about the same with defenders. They can hit many targets sure, but not for much damage at all. Most sentinels ive seen do more damage than my crabber, even if im focued on AoE damage.

 

- Their pet damage is also "alright". Its not as good as a MM's pet damage by any means though. When playing solo on +2/8 difficutly with bosses, I do just fine. on +3 or 4 however, I always fall flat. The issue is if you favor Crabbermind style, you dont have the tools to use your pets as well as a Mastermind can. You cant issue them commands, they are always in aggresive mode so they chase things and aggro more groups or you cant command them to "focus fire" for priority targets. And when your pets die, (and they will) you have a long wait to refresh them. Pet survieability is an issue too. I made a build that focused 100% on the strongest pets possible, and they were still getting 1 shot from alpha strikes, and there was abolutely nothing I could do about it. Even things like T4 barrier was just a bandaid, because the pets couldnt survive without it, so they ended up dieing every other spawn, and there is no way to heal their damage either. And fo be a crabbermind you have to focus entirely on -recharge, just to be able to keep your pets up. So if they die, well, you have a long wait to bring them back out again.

 

- Their Survival? Well, I would rank them about equal with a scrapper. They can take a few hits, but dont have any emergency tools besides Serum if things go bad. And also no taunt ability at all besides Omega Maneuvers, which isnt really a tanking tool at all. But they can get good defense and resistance numbers but cant really take advantage of it. You wont hold aggro from an irritated butterfly much less scrappers, stalkers, blasters, and every ones grandmother out DPSing you. So all your defenses do is help make sure you are the last one to die once everyone else faceplants.

 

>What is your favorite build - do you think they compare with one another?

 

 - I LOVE the crabbermind build and the playstyle. I have a crabber tank as well, but they are nearly identical if pets are dead. The biggest difference is one has quasi pet helpers, and the other one has attacks like shatter armor to help with boss/elite boss mobs. Aside from that, there isnt much difference.

 

>Are they underpowered/overpowered/okay at the moment?

 

-Even though they are my favorite AT, I consider them underpowered. I have tried probially around 15 different crabber builds, spent around 3 billion inf on different gears and setups struggling to make Crabbermind viable on +4/8 solo. You "can" do it, but your kills will be slower than a defender solo. Their only saving grace are their team buffs, but thats something of a moot point at high end content as most people are softcapped anyway, and your team buffs alone wont keep your pets alive on that difficulty, so there isnt much point. It saddens me the AT is lackluster, it really does, and even though its my favorte I shelved mine for the time being until something comes about to make her more viable.

 

- Its especially a pain farming up incarnate threads for them too, because even if you have a billion inf to dump on IOs, youre still stuck on +1/2 + 8 difficulty, because even after all that money spent thats all you can handle due to damage output. You might have capped durability, but your damage will be so low that you will end up loosing steam and still die on any harder content. I had to get all of my incarnates to T3 before even attempting +3/8 content, even more still if I want to do +4/8 content. 

 

>What would you like to see changed?

 

- First off I would love to see more tools added for Crabberminds. Either some way to heal their pets or shore up their durability somehow. Because at the moment your only tool to do so is an either/or with destiny incarnate. You can take rebirth to heal them on a very long cooldown, or take barrier to make them live through a mob of enemies. But both arent  a cure all because rebirth has such a long cooldown its an emergency tool at best, and it takes you so long to kill top end groups of enemies barrier wont last through 2 spawns. So you can either let your pets die on the pull, or wait for barrier to recharge. Thats pretty much your choices at 4/8 content.

 

- Secondly I would like to see more distinction or choice between powers. Nearly every crabber takes venom grenade, suppression, frag grenade, and X as their "rotation". Sometimes I used frenzy too, or single target powers to help with harder enemies. But that means the other powers such as nearly all the melee powers arent viable or worth consideration. The powers arent equal in effectiveness at all, so everyone ends up picking the same few powers and ignoring the rest.

 

>What do you love about them?

 

- I love the "feel" and playstyle to them. It feels like you are playing a mobile piece of artillery, and I really like that. it "feels" like you are a ranged tank with pet helpers. I love that! But, it falls flat on harder game content, which is a big bummer. You rarely see crab soldiers around these days. And personally, I like the crab packback! 

 

They are still my favorte AT. And I have bent over backwards trying to make her strong. Really, I have. But I can take a fresh brute or scrapper, spend 1/3rd the money, and be twice as powerful. Its really no contest. Sadly, the AT in its current form I believe are for die hard fans only, or people who are okay with keeping to lower end content only.

 

TLDR -

Their Damage - is "okay". Not great, but I know a few defenders that do more damage than I do. Their Aoe damage is decent but they have some of the worst ST damage of all ATs.

Their durability - is "okay". They can get good Defense and Resist numbers, but have no way to use those numbers - No taunt, no emergency tools, only a single low CD heal from serum, thats it.

Their pets - great fun on lower difficulties. Anything higher your pets wont be tough enough, wont do enough damage, and will always be on different targets so their overall effectiveness is low.

Their powers - definately needs some spicing up. Every crabber i know takes the same 3 powers plus X power of choice for their rotation.

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, Harangue said:

<much snippage>

 

Bane:

1.  damage upgrade across the board.

2.  if not (1), add a solid crit mechanic to get it away from the placate mechanic that still doesn't offer an assassin strike.  Stalkers got away from that in i25. This gives an opportunity to go ranged crit using wolf, or melee crit with mace.

 

<the snips, they burn!>

 

3.  The crab backpack I think should be detectable in build swapping.  Why does my mace bane need to have a crab backpack because another build has it?

 

4.  I disagree with the notion that redraw needs to be fixed.  I think it is a soft encourage to use specific set themes but still allows the cross play if it is genuinely desired.  Mace Bane's don't need venom grenade: they have surveillance and if they chose mace epic pool, they also get shatter armor for more res debuff.  Adding non-redraw venom grenade and IO res debuffs would be giving bane's the option to -100% res debuff and that is just unbalanced.

(math for you:  Surveillance - 20% all, shatter armor - 20% all, venom grenade - 40% toxic 20% all else, Achilles heel IO - 20% all.  That is 80% all res, 100% toxic res from one person.  This doesn't factor in incarnate, other IOs, or weaken resolve in force of will pool. No wonder bane is the most popular choice.)

 

edit - corrected typo

With regards to the highlighted parts - fixing redraw would increase damage bane damage. As for the 80% -resistance from a single character... so what? Even with that, you say that they aren't doing enough damage.

 

Also some nitpicks:

1. Stalkers moved away from Placate and stay Hidden long before i25. The Assassin's Focus rework came after the scaling critical chance outside of Hide and was in i23.
2. Bane is the most popular choice because of people a) building Huntsman builds, b) not wanting the Crab backpack, and c) Bane armor being better than Wolf Spider armor.

[Redlynne]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:42 AM, GM Miss said:

>What would you like to see changed?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that adding Mastermind pet command controls to Arachnos Soldiers (only, not Arachnos Widows!) so as to better manage and tactically CONTROL pet behaviors would go a long way towards improving pet performance.  Being able to "give orders" in order to use Aggressive, Passive, Defensive stances along with Attack, Stay, Follow commands would open up a LOT of critical opportunities for strategic and tactical gameplay for Arachnos Soldiers.

 

I would even go so far as to say that building in a Bodyguard Mode functionality for Arachnos Soldiers to help keep their pets alive longer would be a big help, since it would promote "Formation Fighting" with the pets to help spread the pain of incoming damage.  However, one change that I would want to make to an Arachnos Soldier Bodyguard Mode system would be to slightly alter the damage sharing formula.  For Masterminds, the pets each get 1 share of the incoming damage, while the Mastermind gets 2 shares ... so with 6 pets out the Mastermind is dealing with a 1+1+1+1+1+1+2=8 shares damage formula where the Mastermind takes 25% of the incoming damage.  For Arachnos Soldiers, I'd bump the Soldier to having 3 shares, not 2 like Masterminds do ... so with 6 pets out the Arachnos Soldier is dealing with a 1+1+1+1+1+1+3=9 shares damage formula where the Arachnos Soldier takes 33% of the incoming damage.

[Harangue]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

With regards to the highlighted parts - fixing redraw would increase damage bane damage. As for the 80% -resistance from a single character... so what? Even with that, you say that they aren't doing enough damage.

 

Also some nitpicks:

1. Stalkers moved away from Placate and stay Hidden long before i25. The Assassin's Focus rework came after the scaling critical chance outside of Hide and was in i23.
2. Bane is the most popular choice because of people a) building Huntsman builds, b) not wanting the Crab backpack, and c) Bane armor being better than Wolf Spider armor.

 

I'd rather have the set balanced in a way that doesn't require you to dip outside of it.  Much like the game is balanced assuming you don't use hasten or fighting pool, I would hope they would determine damage assuming not taking any res reduction from other sets and IOs into account.

 

Besides, if that were the route to take, a far better solution is to make venom grenade a hand-grenade so you avoid the redraw problem entirely rather than get into nitty-gritty about how to deal with the crab pack issues.  Cosmetically, I would like it gone, but functionally I could see it being much harder to deal with when it comes to redraw.  I bet the VEATs were rushed out and not coded well.

 

1. Game balance is best done in the current form and issue; balancing against i23 numbers won't fix now.  I'm not asking for ATO levels here.  But the difference is notable enough that not doing so will still make it subpar.

2. I'm not arguing against the backpack problem that causes (b) and (c) and suggested a fix to address that. If Hunstman is the only other reason, then does that not infer there is a balance issue among the internal set choices?  If the crit mechanic I suggested were implemented, it would affect huntsman build too.  I even offered another solution with a new MM mechanic to better fit the themes.  I think an AT with options should continue to have options rather than be Hunstman or bust.  At that point, we may as well just make it 1 primary, 1 secondary and lock them in and just rename the AT to huntsman.

 

 

Game balance is not easy.  When you change one thing, you tend to throw others off balance.  Tweaks to other AT's have slowly put this one behind and that tank adjustment is the most recent example (however necessary it was).  This AT has options and will need all options addressed to make all players happy.  To address only 1 style and force everyone who has this AT into that style defies the Epic AT design of significantly different play styles and options.  Kheldians have many different builds and you see only 1 power that crosses over between the different forms; it really isn't that strong of a power either.  I see no reason to stray from that design.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Harangue
grammar

[dinatar]

My build : only bane.

I love this at, but it s true, we can have better result with a scrapper wm/sr, without ally buff.

I think bane, are a good dps at, but they need 2/3 tweaks.

- shatter version of War mace, for more "aoe"

-reduce the loooong animation

- add a little DDR

-add a "critical mechanic" 

With this, no need to have a no redraw.

[carroto]

I'm happy with my widow/fortunata for the most part.  The Fortunata does seem to be trapped between two worlds to some extent.  Control is a bit light compared to a true control character, but the defensive powers are weaker than on a Night Widow.  So not really great at anything.  Still it's a unique combo and I'm sure giving any more on either side would be too much.

 

I haven't tried crabs because of the backpack issue.  I have made a Bane/Huntsman dual build.  Huntsmans are fun on teams.  The Bane as more of a single-target specialist is the solo build.  As many others have said, Banes are slow and clunky to play.  Too many long animations and especially the ranged and AoE attacks are just inexcusably weak.  Getting only 2/3 crits doesn't help.

 

As I recall back in the day someone did an analysis for Stalkers of Placate + the best attack, and for most power sets using Placate caused a reduction in DPS.  That's with full crits.  So with Bane 2/3 crits and slow animations, there's no way using Placate is worthwhile.  No AS and partial crits, along with slow animations means no real burst damage on a stealthy character.  All the squishiness of a Stalker without the burst damage.  If I didn't have the option to switch to Huntsman mode for teaming I wouldn't be willing to play one.

[vynestra]

My crabbermind is by far my favorite character, and like others said, in a vacuum our damage is amazing, but in itrials my pets definitely die sometimes, I wish there were more pet IO set options especially for defenses, or a power pool or something that helps with pets specifically, I'm sure a lot of masterminds would like it too. 

 

Tankyness on crabs is great, you have decent res (50-60%) on most res, and high defense. Perma serum is awesome. 

 

I'd love to have more trade off options in damage vs. tankyness for pets though. However they have strong aoe and decent -res debuffs. And even if they don't neccesarily match a brute/scrappers dmg in itrials - they do provide strong support, their tactical trianings are just spectacular.

 

 

Also - it looks like mastermind henchmen that are 2 lvls down gain an extra 2 lvl shifts and ones that are 1 down gain an extra level shift in itrials - can that be applied to crabbermind pets too please?

Edited April 2, 2020 by vynestra

[tidge]

17 hours ago, vynestra said:

I'd love to have more trade off options in damage vs. tankyness for pets though. However they have strong aoe and decent -res debuffs. And even if they don't neccesarily match a brute/scrappers dmg in itrials - they do provide strong support, their tactical trianings are just spectacular.

No strong agreement or disagreement from me on the above point, but I wanted to mention that in the character AT chooser, the Arachnos Soldiers are the lowest rated of the "pet" Archetypes. I wouldn't want them to necessarily get advantages over the other pet ATs. My experience with the other ATs:

 

Masterminds: Obviously the 'gold standard'. It should be obvious that the Arachnos Soldiers get greatly improved damage scaling relative to MMs (not sure about the pet's scaling) so bringing Crab pets up to the level of MMs (via control options) seems unbalancing. The Crab pets are obviously meant to fulfill a different role than MM pets; trying to make them more like MM pets seems to miss the point.

 

Controllers: I have less experience with controller (and Defender) pets (Singularity, Fluffy), but I think the Dominator experience scales...

 

Dominators: I've found the Dominator pets, even without MM control mechanisms, to generally be strong... but I think that is almost entirely due to controls being brought by the Dominator (or Controller). These AT are squishy, so the pets taking aggro/damage is a natural part of the utility. Crabs generally don't need the pets to take the aggro, and as was mentioned above Crabs lack an easy way to grab aggro. (*1 see note below) I am a fan of bringing Control to a fight, but the Soldier VEATs are not a class for which I find this style of play productive.

 

I've run various toons with Lore and Temporary power pets, but so have others. I don't think I have any special insights to share... but I bet if we took a poll, folks would want them to recharge faster and to also be subject to MM controls!

-----

 

I built my Crab specifically to be a Crabbermind, but it only recently occurred to me (thank you, this thread) that I could easily reconfigure the power selections to beef up his own offensive potential without the pets. I already play all my VEATs as multi-builds so using the (third, in this case) to try out a non-pet variant of the Crab appeals to me. (What's another 300 million Infamy for except to be spent on IOs?)

 

For reference. My Crab's (three) pet slotting is simple: each gets 4 slots of Expedient Reinforcement emphasizing Recharge; one (the T3 patron) gets the Resist Aura. The T1 (Spiderlings) also get the Overwhelming Force (+Damage, %KD) and Soulbound Allegiance (%Build Up) procs for slots 5 and 6. The T2 (Disruptors) get a 5th slot for the Edict of the Master Defense Aura. As you may have gleaned from my responses in this thread, I'm not super committed to keeping my little soldiers alive. I do find that this slotting (along with the VEAT's ally-boosting powers) is all I need to get the performance I want from them. I can understand if folks are investing more slots into them that they expect bigger returns; my mileage varies.

-----

 

*1 (note on aggro) Let's not speak of Omega Maneuver. Of course Crabs have their AoE attacks, and there is Provoke (as a T1 power pool pick). AoE (Crab) attacks as a means of getting aggro are literally hit-or-miss. I am a huge fan of the Presence pool for many ATs, but the Crab is one that (aside from Provoke) don't benefit from the controls (Intimidate, invoke Panic), and can't really use Pacify (because of the pets & AoE focus) and don't need Unrelenting (because of Serum, unless they want to double up). It's been my experience with many builds (but especially VEATs) that all four non-patron power pool choices are already spoken for... taking Provoke but having to give up a Defensive power mule may strike many as counter-productive.

 

One thing I've written that I'd like to see in the (Homecoming) game are some new PVP (or Purple) IO sets for powers like Fear or Taunt... but I think that many different builds could benefit from a new damage set which has a 6th piece proc specifically for % Taunt, just like we have damage set procs that knockdown/immobilize/hold/disorient (assuming code is possible). It would be a hard choice for many characters to sacrifice a -Res or %Damage proc from an AoE, but in the specific case of a Crabbermind trying to keep pets alive (from single-target attacks anyway) I think I'd be tempted make the switch.

 

EDIT: It suddenly occurs to me that one of the Spiderlings' purposes may actually be to take aggro from the Disruptors (and Patron) pets. One more reason to love the little scamps!

Edited April 2, 2020 by tidge
something occured to me...

[selfunconsciousness]

On 4/1/2020 at 9:50 AM, Harangue said:

I'd rather have the set balanced in a way that doesn't require you to dip outside of it.  Much like the game is balanced assuming you don't use hasten or fighting pool, I would hope they would determine damage assuming not taking any res reduction from other sets and IOs into account.

I understand that this is an opinion, and is also focused on the suggestion of buffing Bane damage, but I have a different opinion in regards to how this should weigh in on Soldiers/Widows having a no-redraw option. 

 

Earlier, you mentioned redraw being a soft encourage to have players stay within their primary powerset.  In my opinion, City of Heroes has always encouraged players to mix and match powersets together to create unique heroes.  The notion that players would be punished by trying to combine different powersets with one that happens to have a weapon in it is completely antithetical to that design paradigm.  I believe the Homecoming team has recognized that issue by adding no-redraw options to the other weapon powersets from other ATs.  It seems inconsistent to apply different design to Soldiers/Widows.

 

If we bring game balance into the discussion, how would the best way to balance around redraw look?  Give all abilities with weapons a damage slight damage boost to account for the added redraw time that comes from using abilities outside the powerset?  This is implied in your suggestion that players be encouraged to focus on abilities in their primary set.  Among other issues with this potential fix, how would this interact with players who run combos like archery/tactical arrow blaster or trick arrow/archery defender?  Should they be forced to redraw the exact same weapon each time they use an ability from their secondary set and then redraw the same weapon again when they use an ability from their primary set?  Or should they just have a permanent damage buff with no consequence because their primary and secondary happen to use the same weapon? It seems like the best way to balance this is also the simplest: account for non-weapon powersets having no-redraw inherently by giving weapon powersets a no-redraw option as well.  This solution has already been applied to other ATs, it should be applied to VEATS as well.

 

On a side note, in my opinion game balance should always take into account what players can/can't do within the limits of the game, and not what game designers think or hope they should/shouldn't do.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by selfunconsciousness

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

bringing Crab pets up to the level of MMs (via control options) seems unbalancing.

We'd obviously need playtesting to determine the validity of this opinion (of course), but a simple default stance change for all Crab pets would make some sense if controls are not available.  Putting the pets on Defensive+Follow as their default stance, rather than Aggressive+Follow, would be an improvement ... even if Soldiers of Arachnos do not get Bodyguard mode.  Having the pets WAIT to attack until the Soldier gets attacked first would improve their survival potential, rather than having them simply charge blindly forwards upon entering aggro range on a suicidal kamikaze towards $Target(s) and then forcing the Soldier to try and keep up (to keep them alive) as the pets just go on a suicidal rampage would be ... better.

 

Part of the reason why I say that is because (conceptually speaking) you want the PC to be leading the pets, not following them into battle.  Switching from Aggressive+Follow default stance to a Defensive+Follow default stance would accomplish this, just from a behavioral standpoint.

[Lockpick]

• What is your favorite build - do you think they compare with one another?
  • I have only played a Huntsman build with a focus on the rifle attacks, although I do have Build-up from the Bane pool.
  • I haven't played the Bane due to the slow attacks or the Crab due to the backpack issue.
• How do they compare with other damaging/Survival ATs?
  • My defense is very good and he seems to survive okay.  The damage seems low to me, but I haven't done deep dive number crunching.
• Are they underpowered/overpowered/okay at the moment?
  • I would like to see the damage increase on the rifle attacks.
• What would you like to see changed?
  • As a primary rifle build I would like to see Build Up not draw the Mace.
  • I would like to see the crab backpack issue resolved.  I would love to do a 2nd build and play a Crab Soldier.
• What do you love about them?
  • I like the ability to be able to take one character and have multiple build options with all the options.
  • I like the team utility

 

 

https://guidescroll.com/2011/07/city-of-heroes-huntsman-arachnos-wolf-spider-guide/

 

Adding some additional comments:

 

I have been playing my SoA today and I recall why I have been letting him sit idle.  His damage seems low compared to other sets and the endurance drain with all the toggles seems high.  I would suggest increasing the damage and the specs on Conditioning.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Lockpick
Some edits

[tidge]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

 Having the pets WAIT to attack until the Soldier gets attacked first would improve their survival potential, rather than having them simply charge blindly forwards upon entering aggro range on a suicidal kamikaze towards $Target(s) and then forcing the Soldier to try and keep up (to keep them alive) as the pets just go on a suicidal rampage would be ... better.

I grok your point, but my experience with Fire Imps (on a Dominator) is that the Fire Imps behave exactly the same way as the Spiderlings (and Fiery Orb). The suicidal behavior is simply less noticeable because the Dominator is explicitly running like crazy in-and-out of mobs and spamming controls left-and-right. If I played the Dom like a (ranged attach) Crab (with far less control) the pets would die just as quickly. I will grant that the recharge time for Fire Imps is much improved over Disruptors, but once PermaDom is achieved I almost never respawn Fire Imps in a mission except at the extreme levels of content. On large teams I seldom even worry about keeping 3 Imps out.

 

The Crab pets don't appear to behave all that different than several Lore pets, or Patron pets. If a player takes on too big of a group, the melee pets will get in over their heads. The Disruptors (because of their ranged focus) are much better "behaved", but that is primarily because of their attack set.

 

I don't doubt that (all) pets could be made better (Why won't the portable workbench follow me?! It's supposed to be portable!) I simply question if players recognize that these AT pets are supposed to fill a different role than other type of pets for different ATs.

 

If you want to do more to help the (2-attack) Spiderlings survive, try looking at changing your behavior/build before asking the (lower level) Spiderlings to change! It is possible to roll up a Crabbermind with some semblance of control to help the pets survive (more like how Dominators do it):

1. (AoE) powers can be slotted for Knockdown. Frag Grenade takes Sudden Acceleration. The Overwhelming Force %KD proc goes almost anywhere. (I gave it to the Spiderlings)
2. The %Fear ATO (Soldier) proc added to an AoE can prevent enemies from taking action during combat
3.  The Winter ATOs all offer control options: Avalanche gives Knockdown (plus recharge, if you want it in the 15-minute-recharge critters) , others give Hold, Immobilize, etc.
4. The Patron pools all offer a control attack, as an AoE attack.
5. Although I don't recommend it for Crabs, the Presence pool has a ST and a PBAoE fear (and you can throw the %Disorient proc into Provoke)
6. If you take the Mu Mastery Patron, you can add %Stun to all of the attacks, IIRC.

My Crabbermind is only using options 1 (2x KD), 2 and (when I bother) 4. Yes the Spiderlings sometimes get in over their head, but a couple minutes later I get them all back.

 

These aren't even the only offensive options, as the Melee attacks (Crab or Pet) can also be slotted with KD, Disorient, etc. It's not that hard to boost defenses/resists of the pets once you've unlocked incarnate content (which is probably when you will be facing the situations that kill your pets quickly, sure it happens at lower levels but how godly do you expect your Spiderlings to be at level 32?).

 

I don't know if I've beaten the horse to death yet, but I think the Soldiers have bigger problems (sloooow Bane attacks) that could be addressed within only this AT without overstepping into a primary feature of other classes (Masterminds, plus Controllers, Dominators, Defenders, etc.)

 

 

 

[vynestra]

I would disagree that crabbers dmg is worse or equal to a defenders - Maybe the crab itself, sure, but when you include the pets they do massive damage.

 

The problem of course boils down to the pets living or not, which usually isn't an issue in task forces or in teams, even i trials aren't too bad depending the trial, since they get a ton of team buffs and usually can survive + healing spam. It's hit or miss though. 

 

The problem with crab itself is that if you don't go the crabbermind route your damage is extremely underwhelming, and if you do you have the pet tanky-ness issue. Definitely not perfect - But the good news is that the debuffs and team buffs are very useful, and so even if your pets die and your damage isn't amazing, you still provide value to your team.

[dz132]

Majority of Crab attacks are garbage.  With the exception of Venom Grenade.  Even Omega Maneuver is on a 6min cool down.  You're better off taking huntsman attacks than Crab attacks, thats how bad they are. 

Crab pets are also terrible if you're trying to solo, they die way too quick.  They are good for melting hard targets like Pylons, but outside of that is subpar.  Crabs I think really need a taunt aura and fill in a more tanky role, this way their pets and stay alive, the Crab's own subpar damage can somewhat be justified.

Edited April 2, 2020 by dz132
spelling

[vynestra]

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

We'd obviously need playtesting to determine the validity of this opinion (of course), but a simple default stance change for all Crab pets would make some sense if controls are not available.  Putting the pets on Defensive+Follow as their default stance, rather than Aggressive+Follow, would be an improvement ... even if Soldiers of Arachnos do not get Bodyguard mode.  Having the pets WAIT to attack until the Soldier gets attacked first would improve their survival potential, rather than having them simply charge blindly forwards upon entering aggro range on a suicidal kamikaze towards $Target(s) and then forcing the Soldier to try and keep up (to keep them alive) as the pets just go on a suicidal rampage would be ... better.

 

Part of the reason why I say that is because (conceptually speaking) you want the PC to be leading the pets, not following them into battle.  Switching from Aggressive+Follow default stance to a Defensive+Follow default stance would accomplish this, just from a behavioral standpoint.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

 

After all, these pets are supposed to be "reinforcements" not leading the charge. You are meant to be leading this squadron of spiderlings and bots into battle, not the other way around. I still think though giving spiderlings +2 and arachnobots +1 in itrials should be a high priority (since thats what mms get now for thier pets, at least in the magisterium from what I saw)

[tidge]

3 hours ago, vynestra said:

This makes a lot of sense to me.

 

After all, these pets are supposed to be "reinforcements" not leading the charge. You are meant to be leading this squadron of spiderlings and bots into battle, not the other way around. I still think though giving spiderlings +2 and arachnobots +1 in itrials should be a high priority (since thats what mms get now for thier pets, at least in the magisterium from what I saw)

On my Crabbermind, none of the pets (Patron spider Blaster included) have a better perception than my toon (75 feet, running only a single TT:Leadership). That is to say, they only run away from me if I'm the enemies get close enough... usually because I have already opened fire on them. I don't think it is fair to say that the "pets are leading the charge". The enemies who primarily have short ranged attacks are ones that the Spiderlings will go for, because they have melee attacks. If the Spiderlings don't close for melee, you will be losing half of the damage (literally!) that they should be doing... and you are still going to have to account for AoE attacks against their lower (-2) level defenses. 

 

For those who want suggestion on keeping pets around longer, we have this thread in the sub-forums. Some of the performance issues may be with the build, some may be with play style. For example, if you outrun your pets, they will get straggler-aggro in addition to be far from any defensive bonuses you may provide.  This is true of even MM pets (unless of course you planted them in a particular spot and intended to leave them in that spot).

 

 

Boosting the Crab pet levels in iTrials doesn't seem outrageous to me. FWIW, the Spiderlings (at -2 levels to you) are always going to have problems avoiding being hit. The thread I linked discusses ways to boost the defensive and offensive attributes of the pets.

[Neiska]

Personally Ive found that its always been a struggle to keep pets up unless I had Barrier running. If barrier was up, they are fine. When barrier falls off, they die. Fast. I tried juggling Support Hybrid and Barrier to shore up their defenses, and that works. To a point. The problem is that if you pick barrier you cant pick rebirth, and so you have zero way to heal or help your pets. You cant even taunt unless you took provoke from presense pool, but if you did that then your own defenses will suffer.

 

It always felt like trying to keep all 3 points of a triangle - My defenses, Pet Defenses, and Healing, and you can pick any 2 of the 3, and the last one will suffer. 

 

But for arguement sake, lets say you had a way to make your pets survive on 4/8 with bosses, in a farm or something. You still have no way to make them focus fire on priority targets, and unlike MM pets they still run into melee and get clobbered, so you cant play the "immobilize and pew pew" them game, as they just run in and die anyway.

 

Still say unless there is something changed Crabberminds will be a niche thing, but far from a competetior at endgame. If you compare a Crabermind ot a Mastermind, its night and day as far as pets are concerned. A MM can buff, heal, focus fire, debuff enemies, go tankermind if they want to, do damage, and still be overall far more tougher than a Crabbermind will ever be if you consier bodyguard mode. A Crabbermind can buff, cant heal unless they incarnate, cant keep their pets alive unless they give up on healing, cant taunt unless they sacrifice something else.

 

Much as I love the class, overall if you are a pet lover like me, a MM is so much better. I struggle to get a crabbermind to do 4/8, much less with bosses, even if i spend half a billion inf getting them fully kitted out. Meanwhile on my MM I can park myself on a map, with heal on autocast, go do laundry or dishes, come back and find a fully cleared Moon Map.

 

The only time Ive seen Crabers wreck things at max difficulty, was if there are more than one of them. Some friends and I did a test and ran a team of 6 Crabers. It was just absurdly hilarious, even all of our spiderbots were tearing things apart, due to the stacking TT buffs that affected all of our pets. So aside from something like that, my personal take on Crabbers is while fun, and still awesome, its sort of a "for fun only" build concept.

 

Just my two cents.

[TechPappee]

My two Influence:

 

I've only played Fort & Widow. It's true you can stack 6 toggles but you most likely run into endurance issues, at least until you get in the higher levels/Incarnate trials. Those can get to X amount of cap % can be said for more than just AS AT.  

 

Redraw is the main issue on Widows if using anything from Fort or other pool choices. It makes it clunky to play IMO. I still have fun but it does seem to break any flow you have. Maybe have the redraw not always as in say X amount of time out of combat not every single time you use other abilities. If the power is available for a Wid/Fort why must they pause, redraw, attack, use a pool power, pause redraw etc with the same target/mob.  I can see redraw at the begging of a fight but not consistently throughout the fight.

 

EDIT: I agree the damage cap could be raised closer to damage AT levels. Are AS damage ATs or are they buff ATs? That is a underlining issue, trying to make them some hybrid of the two. Possibly meet half way, higher than buff % but lower than damage like 350%? 

Edited April 3, 2020 by TechPappee
clearer thought

[GM Miss]

Locked, check for the recap tomorrow! 😄