Blackfeather's Mind Control Updates v1

[SaddestGhost]

On 4/11/2020 at 10:21 AM, Blackfeather said:

What did you think of the Dizzied! mechanic from my original post? That is, causing enemies woken up by Levitate/Terrify when they're put to sleep by Mass Hypnosis/Mesmerize to wake up disoriented (mag 3 stun), with the duration of the stun based on a fraction of the remaining time of the sleep effect?

 

Basically, the Dizzied! mechanic was thought up with two things in mind: providing Mind Controllers with more opportunities for Containment, and dynamically strengthening the effects of their Sleep powers in groups that seldom require them - fast, explosive teams with lots of damage that easily wake enemies up without meaning to. It also lends itself nicely to some fun combinations, taking into consideration my other proposals. For example:

• Telekinesis > Mass Hypnosis > Levitate
  • Group a bunch of enemies together, before putting them to sleep
  • Levitate lifts all enemies affected by Telekinesis into the air, dealing Containment damage
  • Enemies are left stunned by the Dizzied! mechanic for a fraction of the Sleep duration
• Mass Hypnosis > Terrify
  • Put a group of enemies to sleep, then jolt them awake with overwhelming Fear, dealing Containment damage
  • The Dizzied! mechanic kicks in, leaving them awake but disoriented
• Mesmerize > Levitate
  • Basic one-two designed to disorient a single opponent

It's taken me a while to solidify my thoughts on your Dizzied mechanic but I've finally put my thumb on why it doesn't sit well with me.   In many situations, it seems like it would fundamentally alter Mass Hypnosis from being a Sleep to simply being a short-duration Stun.  On teams, for instance, it's almost forgone that Sleep will be broken.  The other issue is that without some alteration to Levitate or Terrify the ability to set up AoE containment doesn't mean much.  As it currently stands, Mass Hypnosis only has a slightly longer recharge than Terrify.  In most cases, I'll simply wait a few seconds in order to cast MH before Terrify in order to  benefit from the containment.  Your Dizzied mechanic does add a bit of forgiveness when teaming, but without a fairly long duration it won't maintain containment for a second casting of Terrify.  The added utility in Mass Hypnosis would certainly be an improvement but on the list of changes I'd implement I'd hope to see Fear and/or Confuse added to containment first.

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, SaddestGhost said:

It's taken me a while to solidify my thoughts on your Dizzied mechanic but I've finally put my thumb on why it doesn't sit well with me.   In many situations, it seems like it would fundamentally alter Mass Hypnosis from being a Sleep to simply being a short-duration Stun.  On teams, for instance, it's almost forgone that Sleep will be broken.  The other issue is that without some alteration to Levitate or Terrify the ability to set up AoE containment doesn't mean much.  As it currently stands, Mass Hypnosis only has a slightly longer recharge than Terrify.  In most cases, I'll simply wait a few seconds in order to cast MH before Terrify in order to  benefit from the containment.  Your Dizzied mechanic does add a bit of forgiveness when teaming, but without a fairly long duration it won't maintain containment for a second casting of Terrify.  The added utility in Mass Hypnosis would certainly be an improvement but on the list of changes I'd implement I'd hope to see Fear and/or Confuse added to containment first.

Welcome back! That's alright, my responses take a while too sometimes, hahah.

 

Yup - that's the reasoning I put in the original post; while the main utility of Mass Hypnosis and Mesmerize is to put enemies to sleep and take them out of the fight, that makes little sense when in a fast moving group, so providing them with another use made sense in my mind. As I described it, adding Levitate or Terrify 'hardens' their controls at the cost of some duration.

 

Being able to cause enemies to lay on the floor so that they need to get back up was also part of this proposal for that reason; even if a character doesn't take Levitate or Terrorize, I figure that in super fast moving teams those few seconds of enemy inaction are plenty enough to be helpful.

 

I thought the somewhat longer recharge time on Mass Hypnosis made sense as a result; hitting an enemy with it and following up with Levitate/Terrify is less desirable solo than it is on teams.

 

Basically this mechanic (along with causing enemies to sleep prone) were meant to address two things at once: to improve the utility of Mind Control's sleeps, along with providing Mind Control with an extra way of triggering Containment.

 

Of course, Dizzied! alone isn't the only way my suggestion attempted to add a means of Containment - hence why I thought it made sense that the Stun would be fairly short in duration: the addition of the Immobilize status effect on Telekinesis came from considering that. I figured that it'd be a good fit, since the Mind Controller's suspending an enemy in the air. Not all enemies are vulnerable to Holds, but most of them are susceptible to Immobilisation. Add in making it more controllable in effect, and you've got yourself a fairly constant way of triggering the Containment effect.

[capricorpse]

On 3/31/2020 at 11:47 AM, Blackfeather said:

 

 

Telekinesis: Omnidirectional Movement (Alternative Implementation Here)

 

Telekinesis is a very fun power to use, hampered by a few things. At its core, it's a power that is designed to Hold a group and push them away from the user in the process - reshaping the battlefield while rendering the enemy helpless. There are a few issues with this.

 

• It's difficult to control where the group should go
• The power can only affect 5 enemies at a time
• The high endurance cost (3.12/s!) is not worth these effects

 

The power comes at the same level as Gravity Control's Dimension Shift, and likewise could do with a good amount of changes. However, I did not wish to make it so that the current applications of the power (e.g. bundling a group of enemies up into a corner) are invalidated in the process. With this in mind, here is my proposal:

 

Targeting an enemy with Telekinesis will Hold and Immobilize them, along with other enemies surrounding them (potentially lower Immobilize magnitude). The original target should not be able to move of their own volition - instead, the Mind Controller has the ability to move them wherever they like, dragging the enemy, and other enemies Immobilized/Held with them.

 

The controls would be akin to a Mastermind's pet, except without commands to attack a target - everything else (e.g. GoTo, Stay, Follow) would remain. Essentially, Telekinesis becomes a toggle-summoned pet that surrounds an enemy with a field of holding. While not everything is helpless in that area, they would all be moveable (via Repel), allowing a Mind Controller to rearrange the battlefield in a way that only Gravity Control can really match.

 

To clarify:

 

• An enemy targeted by Telekinesis will be Immobilized, and will be moveable regardless of rank
  • They may be Held (mag 3) depending on their level of protection
• All other enemies are affected as usual by magnitude for Holds (mag 3), Immobilizes (mag 3), and Repels (magnitude pending, open to suggestions)
  • If they are Held/Immobilized, they will move along with the enemy targeted by Telekinesis

 

Finally, the target cap for Telekinesis would be increased. I'd say bringing it in line with the other AoE Holds would make sense - 16 in other words.

 

Here is my reasoning for these changes:

 

• Making Telekinesis a toggle-summoned pet means that it gains increased flexibility - enemies can still be shoved into a corner, but they can now also just stay in one spot, follow you around, or even be hovered around in circles
• Adding the Immobilize status effect also provides Controllers with a way of taking advantage of Containment against tougher enemies
• Affecting only 5 enemies is quite low, and ought to match the other AoE Holds for better potency
• These two changes are made with the aim of making the high endurance cost worthwhile (no changes there)

 

 

i LOVE this idea!  this would be so fun to use.  I already get such a kick out of TK, and often use teleport to fine-tune the control of it.  but this would be so great.  Especially the tweak to turn Levitate into an area when used on TK targets.  That seems great but not game-breaking.

[capricorpse]

On 4/6/2020 at 10:49 PM, Redlynne said:

If the Repel HAS TO BE THERE (I'm not convinced it does, but work with me here) ... then I'd want to have a way to conditionally engage and disengage the Repel component being added into Telekinesis.  The simplest solution to this particular problem that I've been able to conceptualize, while keeping Telekinesis (relatively) self-contained so it doesn't create dependencies with other powers, is to go the "Mystic Fly" route and have Telekinesis get broken out into two powers ... the "main" toggle power that does the AoE Hold function just like normal ... and a "sub" toggle power that enables the Repel function in the main power.

 

.......

 

All that said ... I honestly think that a superior implementation to that would be to do the "fission" of Hold and Repel functions as above, but then rather than keeping the Repel function on a sub-toggle ... replace it with a "Wormhole-lite" Click power that will Teleport Foe all $Targets within the AoE of the Telekinesis Hold toggle and deposit them at the location of the anchor of the Telekinesis Hold toggle.  This would be one way to "cluster" everything within the AoE onto the location of the anchor $Target without needing to resort to Knock* or Repel functionality.  It would be a way to use already Known Working Tech™ to achieve the desired tactical repositioning behavior at the lowest risk from a technical standpoint.

 

continuing my necromancy of this thread, I love this idea too and it seems more likely.  This would give so much control over a fun but currently unwieldy power!  the second idea (wormhole vibe) would be great too, a toggle hold that you end by throwing them at the target.  could do decent damage and KD, and be very close to what people do with telekinesis in fiction.

[Blackfeather]

On 5/22/2020 at 4:07 AM, capricorpse said:

i LOVE this idea!  this would be so fun to use.  I already get such a kick out of TK, and often use teleport to fine-tune the control of it.  but this would be so great.  Especially the tweak to turn Levitate into an area when used on TK targets.  That seems great but not game-breaking.

Thanks! Having some increased level of finesse to Telekinesis regardless of implementation would be great for sure - it's definitely a fun power, but it'd be nice to properly control it, you know? Plus, dragging an enemy across the map sounds great. 🤣

[SwitchFade]

Posting this here, so as to keep suggestions and what not centralized.

 

On live, I had a mind/kin controller I took to 40ish. She stagnated. After a time, I felt like resurrection, not just of this thread, but of the mind controller.

 

However, I became curious about dominators. After reading a good deal and finding very little concerning mind/psi Dom's, I rolled one.

 

Mind/psi/psi. I trudged that all the way to 50 with a very expensive build. It was very un-fun. The damage was low, the control was poor, even in perma Dom and she died easily from mass aggro.

 

I was disheartened. I read more, looked at other epics and decided on ice. Reroll! This was markedly better. The debuff in sleet helped damage. Yet, even in Teams she was fragile. Solo, it was torture.

 

I played and played, reworked and stared at mids. Ranged defense is 45% and recharge is 171%. Perma Dom, perma hasten, all the goodies.

 

Now, I love controllers and this was my first Dom. My earth/storm controller is absolutely amazing. The stunny boom boom. Huge control, massive holds, stuns and knockdown. Tons of damage and all typed defenses at 43%+. She's a Monster, transforming any team she's on. She was potent from lvl 25 on.

 

I kept trying to love mind/psi, and doms, and just really had not much fun. I became curious if it was me, the sets or doms.

 

So I rolled am earth/earth Dom. Good Lord, instantly 100 times better. From lvl 6 on, the set is potent! Control, damage, mitigation... It's all there. She's only lvl 24 and already more capable.

 

Enough of that, this is about mind. So, this made me even more curious. I recall seeing so many threads about mind, why this, fix that and so forth. Was psi that bad of a pairing? Was something else more synergistic?

 

Now, I have many controllers. Earth, fire, grav, elec and all of them are able to control and mitigate well using just the primary. Sure, the secondary can make a big difference, yet, every controller I have can lock, hold and afk. That made me just determined.

 

I went back to the mind/psi Dom and built, rebuilt, respecced again and again, to no avail. In perma Dom, the control ability of a Dominator should be second to none. And, mind just....... ISN'T.

 

I tried every attack chain, every combination and every rotation. I opened with terrify, bad the pot shot retaliation is just brutal. I opened with mass hypnosis, to cut retaliatory alpha down and while this helps, it's not very effective. Both mass confusion and total domination are great openers, and recharge solo slowly...

 

Opening with total Dom or mass confusion is great alpha mitigation. The issue with that is the absolutely snail pace one plays at waiting for one or the other to recharge. On top of that, total Dom doesn't last long and the abysmal damage that mind/psi does overall (due to being so heavily resisted late game) means the MOBs are out and unloading attacks, forcing an attempt to try and use mass confuse all the time, or try and hold and confuse targets one at a time rapidly... While being just attacked.

 

I tried everything. Play at range, avoid the big attacks. Hybrid ranged/melee and get drain off at 5-6 stacks minimum for big regen. All melee to really use psi scream... Nothing worked WELL. If I'm on a team, I can contribute and help a bit, but I'm basically along for the show. Not much to offer.

 

I sat and spammed every control primary I had on multiple factions and watched and times survivability, then switched to controllers in the flavor of earth, grav, fire, elec... ALL were sueprior. I could hold and stuff a large group of high level foes indefinitely on a controller without using any of my secondary. Not possible with the mind primary on a Dom, because when total Dom and mass confuse are down, it's danger time, with so little defense or resist.

 

I'm convinced now, that Mind is sub par and has some substantial, yet easy to fix, issues. *Gulp* here we go...

 

Mind primary

 

Terrify

 

On paper, is amazing. I practice, the alpha pot shots are murderous. Terrify should mitigate that, with SOMETHING. Debuff tohit, 3 second stun in the beginning... Anything to cut down on the return fire.

 

Total domination

 

follows the generic nerfage that all AoE holds had, but in this case it should be changed for this set. Mind lacks significantly in the hard control, it needs a faster recharging total domination.

 

TeleK

 

is worthless. I have no idea what would be best for this, maybe mass levitate style like psi assault. Really, this is a terrible power. Maybe even just nix the repel.

 

Mass hypnosis 

 

Where do I begin... With sets like electricity around, pulsing sleep, this power is a straight purple set mule, and MAYBE a situational power for AVs, but for most normal play, it's limited. Shut off a tsoo sorc, sure... But, so much lost potential. It should pulse like elec or apply a massive tohit, anything to add value.

 

Mass confusion

 

Now, this is just about amazing. Until you wait 60 damned seconds with 180% recharge... Just to use it again. I'm not saying it should be up in 20 seconds, but the fact that it's 60 seconds makes this a power that is just not very fun. It REALLY should recharge in 30 seconds at 180% recharge. He'll, domination comes up sooner!

 

Psi secondary

 

Hoo boy. Way too low damage. Much too resisted. We know the resisted part isn't going away, too much work to change and balance issues, but damn. It's terrible! Sure, a few attacks, like the snipe, hit very hard. The others? Meh. Add secondary effects to one or two of the powers to make this set have vlaue.

 

Psi shockwave

 

I have this on my DP/mental blaster, it's a great AoE layer. Here? Somehow worse, due to the lower damage scale. Psi scream should apply a damage resist debuff or stun or knockdown. Something to add survivability or damage.

 

Psi Lance

 

This attack is actually solid, I like this one and it works well.

 

Mental blast and subdue

 

Gee, this is like a song where the 3rd verse is a repeat of the second. Like, we just couldn't be bothered to come up with one more goodie for psi... Heck, just copy, rename and add a paltry secondary switch up. One of these needs a rework, and a big secondary add, like dam resist debuff.

 

Psi scream

 

A cone. Ok, that's cool. Low damage. Meh. I like this attack, other than it suffers from being more of a tickle to MOBs. It needs, more oomph.

 

Drain psyche

 

Very good power, nothing bad about it as far as I am concerned. Really, the only reason to take psi, at the moment.

 

The other single target attacks are just... There.

 

In the end, oddly, mind and psi are not as synergystic as I would hope and mind suffers from very sub par control, mitigation and damage. Psi suffers from low damage potential, no solid secondary effects and repetitive carbon copy powers.

 

Mind absolutely needs a rework.

[Blackfeather]

7 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Terrify

 

On paper, is amazing. In practice, the alpha pot shots are murderous. Terrify should mitigate that, with SOMETHING. Debuff tohit, 3 second stun in the beginning... Anything to cut down on the return fire.

Hmm...that's interesting. The Fear status effect ought to stop enemies from retaliating so long as they aren't damaged, and if it doesn't, I'd consider that a bug - one would think that the damage that Terrify deals wouldn't interfere with the Fear status effect; something like having it applied after the damage or something along those lines. Might be worth submitting that as a bug report on the forums.

[FrauleinMental]

5 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...that's interesting. The Fear status effect ought to stop enemies from retaliating so long as they aren't damaged, and if it doesn't, I'd consider that a bug - one would think that the damage that Terrify deals wouldn't interfere with the Fear status effect; something like having it applied after the damage or something along those lines. Might be worth submitting that as a bug report on the forums.

The range for Terrify is within (or close to) the enemy aggro range, since it's a cone, so their alpha frequently triggers before Terrify hits them.  I usually open solo against groups with Mass Hypnosis, which has better range, lasts longer (barring damage), and doesn't aggro even for the mobs it misses.

 

7 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

On live, I had a mind/kin controller I took to 40ish. She stagnated. After a time, I felt like resurrection, not just of this thread, but of the mind controller.

 

I tried every attack chain, every combination and every rotation. I opened with terrify, bad the pot shot retaliation is just brutal. I opened with mass hypnosis, to cut retaliatory alpha down and while this helps, it's not very effective. Both mass confusion and total domination are great openers, and recharge solo slowly...

I've mained a Mind/Kin controller since Issue 6, and I can confirm the 40s (and even upper-30s) are a slog to solo.  (But I also mained a Jedi Sage in SWTOR's early days, so...)

 

Mind has been around since Issue 0, and I don't recall any tweaks other than nerfing Telekinesis.  The single-target powers are fine, but the AoE powers all need a look for recharge rates.  Mass Hypnosis and Terrify both need a look for better interaction with Containment.

 

As it stands now, Mind is a single-target set with occasional area stuff, so you're not exactly going to solo +4/x8 missions.  (I solo +0/x1 on a fully-slotted Incarnate.  I could probably solo up to about +1/x3 or +2/x2, but it'd be slow, and any higher would depend too much on the AoE powers for comfort.)

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, FrauleinMental said:

The range for Terrify is within (or close to) the enemy aggro range, since it's a cone, so their alpha frequently triggers before Terrify hits them.  I usually open solo against groups with Mass Hypnosis, which has better range, lasts longer (barring damage), and doesn't aggro even for the mobs it misses.

Hmm...I'm not so sure Terrify is working as intended then. For example, take a look at Seeds of Confusion: it's a great (perhaps a bit too great) opener for fights, and it's also a cone. One with a shorter range than Terrify by 10 feet at that!

 

The only difference is that it inflicts the Confused status effect, which shouldn't be an issue for Feared enemies, so long as they're not subsequently attacked. If Terrify really were causing alphas to trigger before it hit targets, then this would be doubly the case for Seeds of Confusion...but that's not the case. Seeds does an exceptional job at mitigating initial enemy attacks (and then some of course).

[FrauleinMental]

59 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...I'm not so sure Terrify is working as intended then. For example, take a look at Seeds of Confusion: it's a great (perhaps a bit too great) opener for fights, and it's also a cone. One with a shorter range than Terrify by 10 feet at that!

It could be, since it appears both powers have ranges slightly beyond minion perception range.  Maybe Terrify is applying Fear and damage in separate ticks, which would allow enemy alpha.  If that's the case, it's been the case since Live.  In any case, I generally try to use Terrify only on stuff I already have locked down, just for the Containment damage, and that's probably not cool.

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, FrauleinMental said:

It could be, since it appears both powers have ranges slightly beyond minion perception range.  Maybe Terrify is applying Fear and damage in separate ticks, which would allow enemy alpha.  If that's the case, it's been the case since Live.  In any case, I generally try to use Terrify only on stuff I already have locked down, just for the Containment damage, and that's probably not cool.

Perhaps - but if Terrify does indeed cause enemy attacks, then I think it ought to be changed. The only difference between Terrify and other Fear-inflicting powers such as Fearsome Stare and Spectral Terror is that damage component (along with the lack of -ToHit). Both of these example powers can easily bar groups of enemies from attacking from the start; I don't think it'd be a stretch to call them strictly better than Terrify if that's the case, especially when they also have the option to deal damage via enhancement procs.

[SwitchFade]

12 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Perhaps - but if Terrify does indeed cause enemy attacks, then I think it ought to be changed. The only difference between Terrify and other Fear-inflicting powers such as Fearsome Stare and Spectral Terror is that damage component (along with the lack of -ToHit). Both of these example powers can easily bar groups of enemies from attacking from the start; I don't think it'd be a stretch to call them strictly better than Terrify if that's the case, especially when they also have the option to deal damage via enhancement procs.

Unfortunately, even unperceived, when a Dominator applies terrify, the MOBs get off their Alpha. Perhaps it's due to the damage, or the order of application, but openeing with terrify on high level teams can and does get one defeated.

 

Basically, hit terrify, MOBs take a shot then go into fear. If it's a group of 15 MOBs at +2-4, imagine soaking that alpha, every time.

Edited June 22, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Unfortunately, even unperceived, when a Dominator applies terrify, the MOBs get off their Alpha. Perhaps it's due to the damage, or the order of application, but openeing with terrify on high level teams can and does get one defeated.

 

Basically, hit terrify, MOBs take a shot then go into fear. If it's a group of 15 MOBs at +2-4, imagine soaking that alpha, every time.

Interesting...well if that's the case, then that definitely ought to be resolved! I'll need to note that down as something that needs changing if it's indeed a problem for others.

[Redlynne]

22 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Terrify

 

On paper, is amazing. I practice, the alpha pot shots are murderous. Terrify should mitigate that, with SOMETHING. Debuff tohit, 3 second stun in the beginning... Anything to cut down on the return fire.

 

14 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...that's interesting. The Fear status effect ought to stop enemies from retaliating so long as they aren't damaged, and if it doesn't, I'd consider that a bug - one would think that the damage that Terrify deals wouldn't interfere with the Fear status effect; something like having it applied after the damage or something along those lines. Might be worth submitting that as a bug report on the forums.

 

12 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...I'm not so sure Terrify is working as intended then. For example, take a look at Seeds of Confusion: it's a great (perhaps a bit too great) opener for fights, and it's also a cone. One with a shorter range than Terrify by 10 feet at that!

 

I posted my solution to fixing the Terrify drawing alpha strike over on my thread and I will spare everyone the repost and just provide a link.

[Blackfeather]

26 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I posted my solution to fixing the Terrify drawing alpha strike over on my thread and I will spare everyone the repost and just provide a link.

It sounds quite interesting! Adding a short-lived Confuse effect to Terrify is definitely one way of preventing alphas if they do indeed occur. I definitely need to test this out for myself just in case - I believe @MTeague mentioned that it wasn't an issue for them, so there might be some other factor at play that's causing it.

 

Still, if it is happening, you have to wonder why that's the case, and if so, whether it's a bug or not, or if it's intentional. I'll hopefully be back with some results from testing soon enough!

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Still, if it is happening, you have to wonder why that's the case, and if so, whether it's a bug or not, or if it's intentional.

It's not hard to figure out.  I posted the reason why (although I didn't highlight it for this express explanation.

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Nofity Mobs	Always

 

Target:

• 27.938s Terrorized (mag 3) (after 0.25 second delay)
• 30.59 Psionic damage
• 30.59 Psionic damage
  If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

 

Okay ... so what does that mean?

 

It means, that Terrify works like Mesmerize ... damage first/instantly and mez effect 0.25s later (lazy game design FTW!).

This is why you can use Mesmerize on a $Target and they will get an attack off before falling asleep on you.  I see this happen all the time when I have only a Sleep effect but no Hold on a $Target I hit with Mesmerize.  Without something to PREVENT actions against my Controller, when damaged (which breaks Sleep) a $Target will attack ... and so long as they initiate that attack before the Sleep (or in this case, Fear) effect is in effect, they're going to alpha strike counter-attack you for using Terrify on them if you don't have something "stronger" like a Hold (or Lift) preventing them from taking any actions.

 

Now it's possible that this little problem could be finessed by simply reversing the order of operations here.

 

Instead of doing damage then terrorize 0.25s later ... instead terrorize first and then do damage 0.25 seconds later.

Doing the terrorize first, instead of second might potentially solve the problem ... but then again it might not.  The behavior might still wind up with everything you hit with Terrify still retaliating against you in a combined revenge strike (just like now).  That's why I proposed the 1s Confuse effect to redirect that retribution, so it still happens, but it happens against other $Targets rather than against the Mind Controller who used Terrify.  It's a stopgap to make Terrify "behave" the way you'd want it to behave as a Controller/Dominator.  The basic idea is that Terrify invokes a brief (1 second) temporary "panic attack" that has the affected $Targets attacking anything nearby (that just happen to be their allies) because you're literally messing with their heads by that much (remember, Terrify is a Tier 8 power!).  So basically they attack each other (Confuse) for 1 attack, which then consumes their retaliatory alpha strike potential (and burns it on all of them, instead of on all of YOU, the caster).  After that, any retaliation fire they might throw your way is going to be more sporadic and spaced out over time, so it won't be a single collective spike of incoming damage for your Mind Controller/Dominator to deal with.

 

Also, that 1s of Confuse duration could cause them to turn and MOVE against each other in an attempt to melee before ranged attacking (although the typical behavior would be to ranged attack when Confused, for what ought to be obvious reasons).  So depending on what attack powers the Terrified $Targets have, there could be a variety of possible response behavior patterns that would be fun to learn (and therefore manipulate as a clever Player with this power change that I'm proposing).

[Blackfeather]

37 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

It means, that Terrify works like Mesmerize ... damage first/instantly and mez effect 0.25s later (lazy game design FTW!).

This is why you can use Mesmerize on a $Target and they will get an attack off before falling asleep on you.  I see this happen all the time when I have only a Sleep effect but no Hold on a $Target I hit with Mesmerize.  Without something to PREVENT actions against my Controller, when damaged (which breaks Sleep) a $Target will attack ... and so long as they initiate that attack before the Sleep (or in this case, Fear) effect is in effect, they're going to alpha strike counter-attack you for using Terrify on them if you don't have something "stronger" like a Hold (or Lift) preventing them from taking any actions.

Interesting! That does sound very odd for sure - after all, a lot of Hold powers deal damage as well, but don't result in enemies retaliating. Why would powers causing Sleeps or Fears be any different in this case? After all, so long as the enemy isn't damaged after the effect is applied, they shouldn't be able to respond.

[Zeraphia]

-Shorter cooldown for Mass Confusion, I'd halve the cooldown and halve the duration.

-Terrify is fine I actually don't want this changed I think it's a great proc power.

-Telekinesis is trash sorry but it's true. Definitely open to breaking cottage rule with this one but I don't think I'll really ever pick it. 

-Dominate is great for procs

-Confuse is one of the biggest reasons I take the set.

-Mesmerize is situational but it's got uses and I like the power.

-Levitate isn't great, but decent for controllers for damage.

-Mass Hypnosis is situational but useful, kinda nice.

 

Only 1 power in this set really is that bad honestly, and that's Telekinesis. IMO, all they should do is allow terrify to set up containment and halve the cooldown and duration on Mass Confusion that's really it, I really do not think this is a bad set at all.

 

[Redlynne]

31 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Why would powers causing Sleeps or Fears be any different in this case?

Mesmerize has a very GOOD reason for why it does damage first and then sleep 0.25s later.

Because if you reverse that order of operations, Mesmerize breaks its own sleep effect ... because damage will break sleep.

So you can't sleep first and then damage 0.25s later.  That just means you get a 0.25s sleep duration (regardless of the power description), which will satisfy NO ONE.

 

Fear ... on the other hand ... I'm not sure if the order of operations (damage then fear versus fear then damage) will affect the behavior of $Targets at all who are hit by Terrify.

[Redlynne]

26 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

-Telekinesis is trash sorry but it's true. Definitely open to breaking cottage rule with this one but I don't think I'll really ever pick it. 

Telekinesis is NOT trash inherently ... but it is made TERRIBLE by the STUPID decision to limit the Max Targets to ONLY FIVE instead of the 16 it ought to have.

When you can scoop up an entire spawn group and repel them into a corner and HOLD THEM THERE for as long as your endurance lasts ... that's VALUABLE.  It also happens to be UNIQUE.

 

Changing the Max Targets limit on Telekinesis from 5 to 16 is so simple, easy and effective that I consider it developer malpractice to have not had it done by Paragon Studios.  The Homecoming Team could fix this travesty of rank and rancid injustice in less than 1 minute.

 

Because this is what use of Telekinesis is supposed to enable ...

 

 

That's TEN Skyraiders all packed within a 10ft radius Target AoE around the anchor in the center, pushed into a corner of a catwalk in Terra Volta.

If you can only do that to FIVE of them at a time ... you can't do THAT.

[Blackfeather]

10 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Mesmerize has a very GOOD reason for why it does damage first and then sleep 0.25s later.

Because if you reverse that order of operations, Mesmerize breaks its own sleep effect ... because damage will break sleep.

So you can't sleep first and then damage 0.25s later.  That just means you get a 0.25s sleep duration (regardless of the power description), which will satisfy NO ONE.

 

Fear ... on the other hand ... I'm not sure if the order of operations (damage then fear versus fear then damage) will affect the behavior of $Targets at all who are hit by Terrify.

What I'm saying is that I don't understand why Sleep/Fear powers that deal damage should trigger enemies to attack in the first place when other powers of a similar nature don't - it sounds kind of unfair, you know? I'm not sure whether or not Ice Control's Flash Freeze is similar in nature to Mesmerize in that way, but if it is, it definitely should be looked at similarly.

[Mezmera]

I don't get as a dom why pairing Mind with Psi is always a must?  Mind is all about control, tons of it, for thematic purposes you must pair it with Psionic attack, why?  Bollocks to that!  Psi isn't that great of a secondary for a lot of controls so of course when you make an Earth/Earth dom its gonna play so much better for you.   My Mind/Energy dom is the best character I've created on this game.  For those asking for a buff to Mind I say you're just not creative enough with your playstyle, power selections and secondary.  

 

Speaking for Mind on a Dominator there's just about nothing that needs reworked.  You have three hard lead in aoe controls and another large aoe control in terrify.  You don't want to count Mass Hypno as a control?  Fine I don't use it anyways I alternate between Mass Confuse and Total Domination between mobs and sprinkle in Terrify when needed.  Mass Confuse and Total Domination available half the time quicker would just be OP as all get out.  I mean you still do have Dominate and Confuse as backups should you take them.  TK yeah that could be looked at, as it is currently it's limited use.  Mind plays so much better on a dom because it's all about control and its instantaneous with Domination whereas you have to hope for a proc on a controller.  

 

Typically I never lead in with Terrify since yes you do catch a bit of an alpha blast if you're not ready for it plus it's soft control, so those pesky blasters could mess up your pack.  I tend to like to use this on stragglers and roamers and also to reinforce control when I have things locked up good and tight.   

 

As for Mind on the Controller side I'll defer on that one but I'd imagine there wouldn't be much warranted aside from but maybe some subtle changes.  You do have a support secondary which has a large effect also.  

Edited June 23, 2020 by Mezmera

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

What I'm saying is that I don't understand why Sleep/Fear powers that deal damage should trigger enemies to attack in the first place when other powers of a similar nature don't - it sounds kind of unfair, you know?

Because damage happens first, enemies are NOTIFIED ... and they reply/respond to being attacked ... just like with any other damaging attack.

They get to queue up their attack choice before the 0.25s delay until the Sleep/Fear takes effect ... and because City of Heroes works on a Resolve First/Animate After basis, everything about their reply attack gets computed and "laid in" to happen before the 0.25s later Sleep/Fear effect comes into force.  It's just a consequence of the order of operations and how the game "works" under the hood.

8 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm not sure whether or not Ice Control's Flash Freeze is similar in nature to Mesmerize in that way, but if it is, it definitely should be looked at similarly.

I just checked Flash Freeze and it works the same way as Mesmerize.  Instant damage with notify mobs ... then 0.25s later apply Sleep.

Note that this formulation means that Flash Freeze CANNOT STACK WITH ITSELF since the power does damage (breaking Sleep) before reapplying Sleep ... unlike Mass Hypnosis, which can be stacked with itself if you put enough sleep duration and recharge enhancement into the power.

[SwitchFade]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I don't get as a dom why pairing Mind with Psi is always a must?  Mind is all about control, tons of it, for thematic purposes you must pair it with Psionic attack, why?  Bollocks to that!  Psi isn't that great of a secondary for a lot of controls so of course when you make an Earth/Earth dom its gonna play so much better for you.   My Mind/Energy dom is the best character I've created on this game.  For those asking for a buff to Mind I say you're just not creative enough with your playstyle, power selections and secondary.  

 

Speaking for Mind on a Dominator there's just about nothing that needs reworked.  You have three hard lead in aoe controls and another large aoe control in terrify.  You don't want to count Mass Hypno as a control?  Fine I don't use it anyways I alternate between Mass Confuse and Total Domination between mobs and sprinkle in Terrify when needed.  Mass Confuse and Total Domination available half the time quicker would just be OP as all get out.  I mean you still do have Dominate and Confuse as backups should you take them.  TK yeah that could be looked at, as it is currently it's limited use.  Mind plays so much better on a dom because it's all about control and its instantaneous with Domination whereas you have to hope for a proc on a controller.  

 

Typically I never lead in with Terrify since yes you do catch a bit of an alpha blast if you're not ready for it plus it's soft control, so those pesky blasters could mess up your pack.  I tend to like to use this on stragglers and roamers and also to reinforce control when I have things locked up good and tight.   

 

As for Mind on the Controller side I'll defer on that one but I'd imagine there wouldn't be much warranted aside from but maybe some subtle changes.  You do have a support secondary which has a large effect also.  

No one said "must pair." It's for theme.

 

Mind should be all about control, it isn't. It has 2 AoE holds, that have ridiculously long recharges..... As stated, needing rework.

 

It has terrify, needs rework as noted.

 

Sleep... Is Not a hard control, on mind. It's not even a soft control, one tick of damage breaks it. Sleep on electric is a soft control with pulsing... As noted. Needs rework.

 

TeleK is... Just useless at the moment... Needs rework.

 

Further, earth PRIMARY, as well as ice, dark and others are far better control sets for a Dom. Mind is literally last in class.

 

Mind on doms, is in serious need of rework and far sub-par to other Dom sets... As noted.

[Blackfeather]

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Because damage happens first, enemies are NOTIFIED ... and they reply/respond to being attacked ... just like with any other damaging attack.

They get to queue up their attack choice before the 0.25s delay until the Sleep/Fear takes effect ... and because City of Heroes works on a Resolve First/Animate After basis, everything about their reply attack gets computed and "laid in" to happen before the 0.25s later Sleep/Fear effect comes into force.  It's just a consequence of the order of operations and how the game "works" under the hood.

 

I just checked Flash Freeze and it works the same way as Mesmerize.  Instant damage with notify mobs ... then 0.25s later apply Sleep.

Note that this formulation means that Flash Freeze CANNOT STACK WITH ITSELF since the power does damage (breaking Sleep) before reapplying Sleep ... unlike Mass Hypnosis, which can be stacked with itself if you put enough sleep duration and recharge enhancement into the power.

I see! Out of curiosity, how do the regular Hold powers such as Dominate work in comparison - are they queued differently?