Why is MIND CONTROL so weak?

[SaddestGhost]

27 minutes ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Finally, it’s just plain incorrect to claim that dealing any damage instantly negates the benefits of non-aggro confuse. Confused MOBs don’t register aggro, which means that you can drop Mass Confusion on a spawn and kill/pull away any other MOBs nearby, and the ones that were confused won’t aggro after confusion wears off. You can also nuke any of the confused MOBs without aggro, as long as there aren’t any non-confused MOBs in aggro range, and they won’t even notice. I have personally used Mass Confusion on a spawn, tossed fireball right into, let the MOBs kill each other, gotten exp for those kills, and none of the survivors ever aggroed me.

See above how this is just flat-out wrong.

This isn't entirely correct.  You do generate aggro.  However, it is for a limited time.  What you are seeing is aggro expiring before the confuse duration.

[Riverdusk]

15 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Honestly, I think this is an issue with the Controller archetype as a whole - Mind is just the most clear example of it. The fundamental issue is that the notion of support is obsolete. Being able to cripple a spawn on a long recharge is of minimal use when everyone else is able to kill it more easily.

 

 

 

That is definitely a part to it.  To me, it is also the added insult of how some blasters with their nukes and secondary reworks now have similar AoE hold/control powers that controllers do, but with much shorter recharge times.  Tempted to try something like a rad/plant, rad/atomic, or rad/arrow blaster if I want a "controller" now.  Two AoE holds, both with around half or less the recharge time and one is also a nuke!  Less duration sure, but you are also a blaster, things will tend to be dead by the time it wears off, unlike on a lot of controllers.  

 

All controller AoE holds need a serious "un-nerfing" imo.

[The_Cheeseman]

1 hour ago, SaddestGhost said:

This isn't entirely correct.  You do generate aggro.  However, it is for a limited time.  What you are seeing is aggro expiring before the confuse duration.

Well, if that’s the case, it’s still functionally equivalent, so it’s cool with me!

 

EDIT: Upon further testing with your explanation in mind, I am inclined to agree with your assessment. It doesn’t substantially change how I use the power, but it does make more sense from a technical standpoint.

 

In any case, any hard control power that enables me to defeat entire spawns in perfect safety is cool with me, whatever may be happening under the hood!

 

I’d also like to draw attention to the fact that, when two people treat one another with respect, even when you’re proven wrong, you can thank that person for teaching you something valuable. Everybody wins!

Edited April 10, 2020 by The_Cheeseman

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm continually amazed by how people keep thinking that an AoE Immobilize toggle is better for containment than an AoE Hold toggle.

You do realize that Holds set up Containment ... right?

 

Well, since Holds set up Containment, then surely Controllers use AoE Holds as their source of Containment, yes?
Well, since obviously they don't, there must be some reason why Immobs are used instead, and that is that Immobs are generally given higher Magnitude, longer duration, or both. For obvious balance reasons.

So, to me, it's obvious that if the Devs re-work Telekinesis and leave it as a Hold, it will have more limitations than if it's used as an Immobilize, so it will likely be able to set up Containment far better if it's reworked as an Immobilize. Not that I expect this to happen since it's a Hold power and it will (if anything) be reworked as a Hold, but ... if the Devs were balancing powers, clearly they would set up AoE Immobs to be far more easily accessible sources of Containment than AoE Holds.

Thus, I keep thinking that an AoE Immobilize toggle WOULD be better for containment than an AoE Hold toggle.

[r0y]

OK, so I made a dominator Mind/Savage Assault.  I like the theme of "Psycho Billy" crazy clown-like thing going on... hence the MC and savage.

 

In a nut shell, I am not feeling as damaging or powerful as a corrupter or blaster of similar level (currently at level 34).  I skipped the confuse for now, opting to be more "blaster with mez" style (got all ranged attacks except Rending Flurry).

 

It plays well enough, and can contain well (especially with domination), but takes a lot of clicks to defeat +1 LT's and bosses (or higher level).  Sure, it's not a blaster, but heck, it's not even a corrupter.  Maybe dom's aren't for me... I just think running through a 6-power attack chain... TWICE to kill a challenging Lieutenant is rough.  Granted, I'm not fully slotted, but it's not *bad* slotting; far better than SO's or plain IO's:

It take effort and attention to kill stuff, but it does kill stuff, and is fun to play.  More than the controller (even when I can get containment).  Mind Control still feels like a chore at this level.  So does being a dominator.  Sadly, an Ice Blast/whatever Blaster would be just as effective in single-target CC, but things would die so much faster.  Mind is like playing the game in first gear only.  Maybe shifting to second gear when the AoE's are up.  Perhaps I'm used to playing in overdrive...

 

I'm still going to stick with it, see how it does in the 40's and end game.

[r0y]

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm continually amazed by how people keep thinking that an AoE Immobilize toggle is better for containment than an AoE Hold toggle.

You do realize that Holds set up Containment ... right?

to which a reply was:

4 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Well, since Holds set up Containment, then surely Controllers use AoE Holds as their source of Containment, yes?
Well, since obviously they don't, there must be some reason why Immobs are used instead, and that is that Immobs are generally given higher Magnitude, longer duration, or both. For obvious balance reasons.

So, to me, it's obvious that if the Devs re-work Telekinesis and leave it as a Hold, it will have more limitations than if it's used as an Immobilize, so it will likely be able to set up Containment far better if it's reworked as an Immobilize. Not that I expect this to happen since it's a Hold power and it will (if anything) be reworked as a Hold, but ... if the Devs were balancing powers, clearly they would set up AoE Immobs to be far more easily accessible sources of Containment than AoE Holds.

Thus, I keep thinking that an AoE Immobilize toggle WOULD be better for containment than an AoE Hold toggle.

AoE Holds can set up containment, we all know this, no amazement needed.

 

I agree with @Coyote in that what controllers need is a SPAMABLE AoE containment: thus, aoe immob.  Still no amazement needed, I think we all know this.

 

I would only be "continually amazed" if someone were to think otherwise in this discussion.

 

People will use whatever the CHEAPEST, QUICKEST most effective method of containing the most mobs with as little effort as possible.  Period.  THAT is aoe containment for a controller.  A efficient one, anyway.  If I get a HOLD TOGGLE that is cheap and up all the time?  Damn straight I'm using it.  Since we don't have that (and probably should not), I'll stick with the ever-spamable AoE immobilizes.  Even the cones. 😉

 

Redo Mind as follows (in proposed tier order):

1. Mesmerize (fine as is)
2. Dominate (fine as is)
3. AoE immob (formerly TK) and just call it "Containment" as an adage to the many pleas over the years!
4. Levitate (increase damage and cost to T4 levels or make a small melee sized TAoE, like Psi Melee, but targeted)
5. Confuse (either T5 or swap with Levitate if it becomes small AoE)
6. Terrify (maybe reduce recharge a bit and move it up from T8 spot)
7. Mass Hypnosis (possibly T6, swap with Terrify)
8. Total Domination
9. Mass Confusion (fix acc, & rech.)

Done.

[Redlynne]

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Well, since Holds set up Containment, then surely Controllers use AoE Holds as their source of Containment, yes?

 

The context was Telekinesis, which is an AoE Hold ... that is unique to Mind Control.

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Well, since obviously they don't, there must be some reason

Because Telekinesis is unique to Mind Control.

I shouldn't have to point this out to you.

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

there must be some reason why Immobs are used instead

They're used because they have CLICK AoE Immobilizes that recharge quickly.

I shouldn't have to point this out to you.

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

that is that Immobs are generally given higher Magnitude

I fail to see how mag 3 is higher than mag 3.

The one thing that Click Immobilizes can do that a Toggle Hold like Telekinesis cannot is stack with self when cast before the expiration of the previous cast.

Note that doubling the Immobilize mag does not double the Containment value.

I shouldn't have to point this out to you.

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

For obvious balance reasons.

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

So, to me, it's obvious that if the Devs re-work Telekinesis and leave it as a Hold, it will have more limitations than if it's used as an Immobilize, so it will likely be able to set up Containment far better if it's reworked as an Immobilize.

So ... you've got nothing but a nebulous not going to happen as your comparison point and you're going to hang your entire argument on an almost certainly not gonna happen rather than deal with what's actually here right now, let alone what's likely to happen or even reasonably possible to happen.  Yeah, uh ...

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Redlynne

[Coyote]

Now I want to develop Irony Control as a powerset 😄

[Peacemoon]

Let’s try dial it down a bit in this thread, we’re all on the same side after all (we want Mind buffs!).

 

A few things I would point out after reading all the replies -

no aggro on mass confuse is not a big deal, it’s not something huge we should balance around. On mass hypnosis it works better because the mobs are asleep and no one has aggroed them. If the sleep was unnecessary then no harm done. A mind controller ahead of their team can pre-sleep spawns before they’re even engaged, at zero risk. Better at low level for sure, but situational useful at every level.  
The benefit of no aggro on mass confuse just isn’t the same. The fact the mobs all turn on each other means your team will absolutely want to engage them, as otherwise you don’t get loot or drops. Of course for ‘solo trickery’ it can be very slightly handy, but it is so niche as to not be a factor.

No aggro on ST confuse is a better thing, because you can spam it and control it much more effectively.

My point? The no aggro on mass confuse is a bit of a gimmick, unlike on mass hypnosis and confuse itself. So it shouldn’t really add much to any discussion on its power.

 

As for lamenting the effectiveness of supports in the current meta, it’s true that control can be unnecessary at times, and that can suck. Melee ATs in particular are so tough sometimes at high levels that they don’t fear unheld mobs, so instantly it nullifies the point of controlling them. But there are other advantages to control, such as keeping stuff in a kill zone. And even when that isn’t needed, controllers can rely more on their buffs/debuffs, which are still very important, and controllers also bring their own damage too. I find in high level trials I’m leaning more on my secondary and my damage then my actual control skills, but I don’t have a problem with that too much. I think it just reassert the importance of controllers being able to provide reasonable damage, buffs and debuffs for when their controls aren’t needed. You just switch to defender mode but with extra options for if it’s needed.
 

[SaddestGhost]

2 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Well, if that’s the case, it’s still functionally equivalent, so it’s cool with me!

 

EDIT: Upon further testing with your explanation in mind, I am inclined to agree with your assessment. It doesn’t substantially change how I use the power, but it does make more sense from a technical standpoint.

 

In any case, any hard control power that enables me to defeat entire spawns in perfect safety is cool with me, whatever may be happening under the hood!

 

I’d also like to draw attention to the fact that, when two people treat one another with respect, even when you’re proven wrong, you can thank that person for teaching you something valuable. Everybody wins!

Taking it back to the original point though, as long as a Plant controller beats the enemies while they're confused Seeds is essentially aggro free as well.  I'm not discounting Mind's aggroless powers though as I do find utility in them.  I generally "soften" an unaggro group with Mass Hynposis before hitting them with Terrify/Mass Domination.  In that case anything that isn't hit by those doesn't immediately begin firing back.

 

48 minutes ago, r0y said:

I agree with @Coyote in that what controllers need is a SPAMABLE AoE containment: thus, aoe immob.  Still no amazement needed, I think we all know this.

 

I would only be "continually amazed" if someone were to think otherwise in this discussion.

 

People will use whatever the CHEAPEST, QUICKEST most effective method of containing the most mobs with as little effort as possible.  Period.  THAT is aoe containment for a controller.  A efficient one, anyway.  If I get a HOLD TOGGLE that is cheap and up all the time?  Damn straight I'm using it.  Since we don't have that (and probably should not), I'll stick with the ever-spamable AoE immobilizes.  Even the cones. 😉

 

Redo Mind as follows (in proposed tier order):

1. Mesmerize (fine as is)
2. Dominate (fine as is)
3. AoE immob (formerly TK) and just call it "Containment" as an adage to the many pleas over the years!
4. Levitate (increase damage and cost to T4 levels or make a small melee sized TAoE, like Psi Melee, but targeted)
5. Confuse (either T5 or swap with Levitate if it becomes small AoE)
6. Terrify (maybe reduce recharge a bit and move it up from T8 spot)
7. Mass Hypnosis (possibly T6, swap with Terrify)
8. Total Domination
9. Mass Confusion (fix acc, & rech.)

Done.

I agree with the general direction of your suggestion but feel it should be done in a different way.  If we add  containment to Fear (whether in general or for Mind alone), and reduce the recharge on Terrify to  around 15 secs, it becomes a power that can be leveraged for damage much easier.  That alone would do wonders to address Mind's damage problem.    I would still like to see buffs to Mass Confusion and TK after that, but I think a containment/Terrify change is a good starting point.

[r0y]

37 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

Taking it back to the original point though, as long as a Plant controller beats the enemies while they're confused Seeds is essentially aggro free as well.  I'm not discounting Mind's aggroless powers though as I do find utility in them.  I generally "soften" an unaggro group with Mass Hynposis before hitting them with Terrify/Mass Domination.  In that case anything that isn't hit by those doesn't immediately begin firing back.

 

I agree with the general direction of your suggestion but feel it should be done in a different way.  If we add  containment to Fear (whether in general or for Mind alone), and reduce the recharge on Terrify to  around 15 secs, it becomes a power that can be leveraged for damage much easier.  That alone would do wonders to address Mind's damage problem.    I would still like to see buffs to Mass Confusion and TK after that, but I think a containment/Terrify change is a good starting point.

I'm not sure how easily they can tag fear/terror as containment, but that would solve at least half the problem.  The other half would be to lock them in place for AoE damage (from teammates, etc).  Also, Terrify comes too late, it would have to be moved up and more "spamable" (less recharge, less damage, etc).  It could work, though.

[Zeraphia]

Food for thought that I think should be taken into very serious considering though you can technically 100% avoid this, is that the typical "optimal slotting" for Mass Confusion works with 6x Malaise... This is due to the fact that the single target Confuse gaining the Contagious Confusion proc is just a stronger option and it allows you to have a pretty spammable confuse on enemies that turns into an AoE effect and allows you to lockdown AV faster therefore being a better place for this enhancement than Mass Confusion. It ultimately ends up superior to use that instead of the 240 second cooldown Mass Confusion "could be" benefit of the CC proc. That leaves you with slotting the Malaise set into Mass Confusion for IO bonuses...

 

So what? Well if you slot in 6x Malaise for the ranged bonus into Mass Confusion to still gain exp from enemies... you still aggro them because of the psionic damage proc. This is arguably still the best way to slot this power in the given state of the game and mechanics involved. Overall, the benefit of Mass Confusion's "aggro-less"-ness is very moot at best in a lot of cases. I do not think that it deserves the recharge it currently has because of this. I think a cooldown of 120s base or 90s would really help the set substantially. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Zeraphia
Removed the interface portion: incorrect information

[SaddestGhost]

1 hour ago, r0y said:

I'm not sure how easily they can tag fear/terror as containment, but that would solve at least half the problem.  The other half would be to lock them in place for AoE damage (from teammates, etc).  Also, Terrify comes too late, it would have to be moved up and more "spamable" (less recharge, less damage, etc).  It could work, though.

Adding Fear to Containment isn't terribly complicated, especially if limited only to Mind.  Basically every damaging controller power has this line:

If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

A find and replace could easily alter or add to it.

 

As for Terrify's damage some adjustment could be made, but it's worth noting Terrify's damage per endurance (1.47 damage/end) is only slightly better than Roots (1.41 damage/end) .   I wouldn't expect it to be as spammable as AoE immobilizes because of the mitigation it provides, but a 15-20 second recharge is similar to damage powers from APP/PPPs.   Having its damage bloom later might be unappealing, but Mind does have excellent control options early on.  It would be like the inverse of Gravity (early damage, later control).

[Hjarki]

I'm not sure Containment (which Illusion doesn't have either) or pets (which are frequently skipped as the difficulty rises above +0 anyway) are the issue.

 

What I'd suggest:

1. Mesmerize. Add a Mag 1 Hold, Mag 1 Fear, Mag 1 Confuse to the power.
2. Dominate (unchanged)
3. Mass Hypnosis. Reduce endurance, recharge and duration to 1/3rd current values.
4. Dread Spike. Single target sniper attack that has approach range/recharge/activation/etc. Causes Mag 3 Fear.
5. Confuse (unchanged)
6. Aversion. Target Location AE, 15 sec recharge, 30 sec duration, 25 yard radius. Enemies take 1.5 dps Psionic damage and suffer Repel (from the center of the location).
7. Terrify (unchanged)
8. Total Domination (unchanged)
9. Mass Confusion (unchanged)

You'd have a mass Sleep on a much shorter recharge that would let you set AE containment (albeit not as efficiently). Likewise, Mesmerize would be much more effective at setting Containment on a single target.

 

Dread Spike would simply ramp up Mind's single target damage to compensate for the lack of a pet.

 

Aversion would be the Telekinesis replacement. You could use it like a standard Repel field (around yourself). You could use it to stack enemies in a corner. You could even set up multiple overlapping fields to create a 'trap' they can't escape.

[Coyote]

1: Why would this help Mesmerize set up Containment on a single target? As I understood, the target has to be actually mezzed, not just affected by a mag that is too low to mez it. Mag 1 mez effects on it are really only going to make it slightly easier to stack on a Boss. Granted, this might be an interesting use for it, but at that point getting a Hold on the Boss may be more relevant than getting Containment.

2: Dread Spike is replacing Levitate. Okay, I can see the point of a Snipe Fear attack, but Levitate is part of a single-target attack chain, and IIRC a good DPA attack in it. So you're trading one attack for another. Now, if you said that Dread Spike uses a special damage mechanism and gets maybe 1.75x normal damage but does NOT benefit from Containment, then I could totally see the point of replacing Levitate. But right now, Levitate is a good attack and can slot a Force Feedback proc, and will toss a Boss up so that you can Hold-Levitate-Hold and only give it one shot at you.

3: I did always think that one very simple way to solve Mind's Containment problem is to shorten the recharge (and duration and End cost) of Mass Hypnosis, so I think that's a solid suggestion.

[VV]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:38 AM, Peacemoon said:

Really the main issue is just containment. If fears provided containment damage it would also help Mind a lot too. 

Honestly, for me, this one thing would be enough. Still would not be up with the best, but it would be a good solid choice.

[oedipus_tex]

I'd like to see Telekinesis changed to a non-notify power like Wormhole was during the Gravity revisions. Then it would go from a mostly useless curiosity to a tool you could use to arrange groups before attacking. It would still have a target cap of 5, so you wouldn't be able to push whole groups into corners and get them with your auto hit Hold. 

 

Since an "Attract" version of Repel may not be in the cards due to engine limitations with reversing vectors, I wonder if the developers could add Repel protection to Total Domination. Then you could position stuff, and when it reaches where you want. launch Total Domination to Hold it in that spot. If the Repel protection lasted about 12 seconds, you'd have a very good synergy between those two powers.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Since an "Attract" version of Repel may not be in the cards due to engine limitations with reversing vectors, I wonder if the developers could make one of the Mind powers like Mesmerize or Levitate provide AoE Repel protection for X seconds.

So use of Levitate by the caster of Telekinesis "disables" the Repel function for {insert duration here} seconds?

 

If you can do that, I'd rather reverse it ... such that the Repel function only happens for {insert duration here} seconds after using Levitation, otherwise no Repel.

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

So use of Levitate by the caster of Telekinesis "disables" the Repel function for {insert duration here} seconds?

 

If you can do that, I'd rather reverse it ... such that the Repel function only happens for {insert duration here} seconds after using Levitation, otherwise no Repel.

 

This is what I get for trying to Stealth edit before anyone reads my post. 😄 That will teach me to post before thinking through my suggestion/

 

In my revision I changed Levitate or Mesmerize to Total Domination, but same concept. Basically, TK would let you operate without alerting mobs. You can push them around and arrange them (or push them out of the way so you can move past them). Total Domination would then have 12 seconds or so of Repel protection. 

 

Your revision is also interesting, altho the functionality I really want is the Repel without notification, like Wormhole has. 

 

BTW I'm curious to find out whether Repel in a non-notify power will awaken enemies who are Asleep.

Edited April 11, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Hjarki]

46 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Since an "Attract" version of Repel may not be in the cards due to engine limitations with reversing vectors, I wonder if the developers could add Repel protection to Total Domination. Then you could position stuff, and when it reaches where you want. launch Total Domination to Hold it in that spot. If the Repel protection lasted about 12 seconds, you'd have a very good synergy between those two powers.

In my suggestions above, I pointed out a way to make an "Attract" version of Repel without any changes to the underlying engine - just make it a Location AE so you can place it such that you can control the vector yourself.

 

However, I find it unlikely that any sort of significant changes to Mind Control will occur, so many of these discussions are a bit pointless.

[The_Cheeseman]

Couple of notes:

 

Interface doesn’t proc on non-damaging powers, therefore it has no effect on Mass Confusion.

 

The Contagious Confusion proc effect only lasts for 8 seconds, making it essentially worthless for stacking mag on anything important. However, when slotted into an AoE, it has the potential to proc multiple times, overlapping on the same target, thereby allowing you to confuse bosses/EBs (even as a Controller) long enough to neutralize their alpha strike, while also modestly inflating the radius and target cap. Being an AoE with a long recharge, the proc will have a capped proc chance, making it very reliable in that regard (much more so than Overpower, anyway).

 

I still think people are underestimating how valuable the non-aggro nature of Mass Confusion is. Slotting the Malaise proc does turn it into what is essentially a worse version of Seeds, and is definitely not optimal. How many folks commenting here have played with Mass Confusion with Coercive Persuation slotted? Granted, my experience is from a Dom’s perspective, but I would think CP in MC would be even more valuable for a Controller, who can’t natively hit 4+ mag reliably.

 

As established above, a non-aggro AoE confuse allows you to damage the MOBs, thereby getting exp and drops from them, and lose all aggro generated by that damage before the confuse effect wears off. This basically means that you can kill a spawn with zero risk, as nothing is ever able to aggro you. That’s a good deal more useful than an AoE sleep. Especially considering that it’s entirely possible to get Mass Confusion’s duration longer than its recharge.

 

No offense meant, but when we have assertions like that Interface ruins non-aggro powers, I start wondering how much actual experience people have with the set.

Edited April 11, 2020 by The_Cheeseman

[oedipus_tex]

Mass Confusion would be useful with around half its current duration. The 240 second Recharge may have been justified in 2006, but with Seeds and Synaptic at 60 seconds, its a hard sell. It's a better power than either Seeds or Synaptic if its recharge matched theirs, and because of the duration of the mezz probably shouldn't recharge as fast as Flashfire/Stalagmite/Wormhole (90 seconds) so I'd go with around 145 seconds, which is the Recharge of a Blaster nuke.

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Couple of notes:

 

Interface doesn’t proc on non-damaging powers, therefore it has no effect on Mass Confusion.

 

The Contagious Confusion proc effect only lasts for 8 seconds, making it essentially worthless for stacking mag on anything important. However, when slotted into an AoE, it has the potential to proc multiple times, overlapping on the same target, thereby allowing you to confuse bosses/EBs (even as a Controller) long enough to neutralize their alpha strike, while also modestly inflating the radius and target cap. Being an AoE with a long recharge, the proc will have a capped proc chance, making it very reliable in that regard (much more so than Overpower, anyway).

 

I still think people are underestimating how valuable the non-aggro nature of Mass Confusion is. Slotting the Malaise proc does turn it into what is essentially a worse version of Seeds, and is definitely not optimal. How many folks commenting here have played with Mass Confusion with Coercive Persuation slotted? Granted, my experience is from a Dom’s perspective, but I would think CP in MC would be even more valuable for a Controller, who can’t natively hit 4+ mag reliably.

 

As established above, a non-aggro AoE confuse allows you to damage the MOBs, thereby getting exp and drops from them, and lose all aggro generated by that damage before the confuse effect wears off. This basically means that you can kill a spawn with zero risk, as nothing is ever able to aggro you. That’s a good deal more useful than an AoE sleep. Especially considering that it’s entirely possible to get Mass Confusion’s duration longer than its recharge.

 

No offense meant, but when we have assertions like that Interface ruins non-aggro powers, I start wondering how much actual experience people have with the set.

I have a Mind/Psi, Mind/Fire, Mind/Energy, I'm not "new" or "inexperienced" with them... that said, I just tried it, and it did not draw aggro straight up from the interface from the testing I've done today (very limited amount) but it should've drew aggro if it was the case. So, yes this is correct, although I could sincerely SWEAR that it drew aggro (I remember GW hitting me in MLTF despite my confuse not drawing aggro/stealth capped). I guess there was something going on or maybe it was a specific interface I used/bug? Not entirely sure honestly, I was standing a far distance from her as well... oh well.

 

Despite that, I don't think you're taking into consideration the fact that yes, you could technically do that but...
1. Stacking the magnitude of Contagious Confusion is not useless. You can oneshot confuse most bosses with that, now you can do the same with MC, however, MC as we discussed is on an excessively lengthy cooldown to the point where you must as yourself if you're really going to see as much benefit from that as opposed to just confusing them one by one with the proc being more useful overall. Overall, I think it has greater utility in the single target confuse just due to the fact it's up more often... Also, you're again going to have to either make the single target confuse draw aggro (I wouldn't want to do this in a million years - it will make you unable to perma-fuse an AV completely...)

2. That leaves you with only a few other options to slot for: your primary ATO (does psi damage) secondary ATO (not great bonuses to be honest, and I don't like the pet), Malaise (does psi damage), or not-so-great sets (Perplex, Cacophony, Befuddling Aura.) For Dominators, their ATO is different and doesn't have to work with the same constraints. Most will end up using Malaise or the ATO, that means the "non-aggro" portion is strictly useless.

 

- You do not gain EXP from confused mobs you've done NO damage to at all whatsoever, so you will still have to draw aggro by hitting them to gain exp/inf. 

 

Which kind of makes the damage proc overall not a bad thing, but it does make it paradoxical that it's the big "benefit," but in reality that benefit isn't as amazing as it initially appears. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Hjarki]

55 minutes ago, The_Cheeseman said:

The Contagious Confusion proc effect only lasts for 8 seconds, making it essentially worthless for stacking mag on anything important. However, when slotted into an AoE, it has the potential to proc multiple times, overlapping on the same target, thereby allowing you to confuse bosses/EBs (even as a Controller) long enough to neutralize their alpha strike, while also modestly inflating the radius and target cap. Being an AoE with a long recharge, the proc will have a capped proc chance, making it very reliable in that regard (much more so than Overpower, anyway).

Single target Confuses have a ~80% proc rate. Synaptic Overload doesn't make particularly good use of Contagious Confusion due to the peculiarities of its mechanics. However, it is inherently 'contagious' in that it can bounce back to previously Confused targets and self-stack.

 

Seeds of Confusion and Mass Confusion has capped proc rates. You'd need +66% internal recharge on Seeds of Confusion before it was no longer capped. However, Seeds of Confusion can perma-Confuse spawns while Seeds of Confusion cannot.

1 hour ago, The_Cheeseman said:

I still think people are underestimating how valuable the non-aggro nature of Mass Confusion is.

I think this might be an issue of how you play the game.

 

On teams, 'non-aggro' is normally useless because while you're carefully avoiding aggro, the rest of your team is diving in and gleefully killing the spawn. Trying to Confuse things to death is incredibly slow compared to just killing them and while the protective virtues of Mass Confusion might appeal to a solo Dominator, most others are just going to shrug and let attacks bounce off their defenses.

 

So I'd argue that the value you're seeing is largely confined to Heros/Villains who:

• Have weak defenses
• Have limited offense
• And who are solo

Even then, I'm having trouble seeing why you'd choose Mind over Plant or Electric.

 

[Zeraphia]

49 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Mass Confusion would be useful with around half its current duration. The 240 second Recharge may have been justified in 2006, but with Seeds and Synaptic at 60 seconds, its a hard sell. It's a better power than either Seeds or Synaptic if its recharge matched theirs, and because of the duration of the mezz probably shouldn't recharge as fast as Flashfire/Stalagmite/Wormhole (90 seconds) so I'd go with around 145 seconds, which is the Recharge of a Blaster nuke.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

Flashfire/Stalagmite/Wormhole are disorients, not confuses.

 

Seeds of Confusion has a 37.25s base duration.

Synaptic has a 27.94s duration.

MC has a 37.25s base duration.

 

These are all longer than the base duration of Stuns, this is not a fair comparison, and it shouldn't be used to set precedents for powers that are completely different in effect. You don't balance the recharge of Holds around their duration relative to the duration to Stuns.

 

By this logic, all of the confuses should all have their recharges at 145s, but that's clearly not the case. 

 

The answer here lies with the fact that Mind needs its T9 on a lower more sustainable and reasonable recharge. 120s or 90s is not a stretch by any means, especially in comparison to Plant, having the same duration, still being a 60s recharge base. Sure, Mind doesn't draw aggro which is debate-ably useful but definitely not enough to warrant a much longer CD like the ones you are describing.