Thoughts on Powersets

[Zepp]

Alright, this may sound weird, but I'd like to know how everyone rates the powersets on three factors: Damage / Support / Mitigation. What I would like is a number from 0-255 for each factor for each powerset. I'm placing an initial set of guestimates in my grid to begin with, but will update as I get feedback from all y'all.

 

	Damage	Support	Mitigation
Ranged	255	50	100
Assault	255	75	75
Melee	255	100	50
Pet	200	150	50
Manipulation	100	200	150
Support	50	255	150
Control	100	150	200
Armor	75	75	255

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Zepp
Added color to improve visualization of the data and purpose.

[Psyonico]

each AT here has a breakdown of usefulness, I don't feel like converting to 0-255, but I pretty much agree with it.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

 

Also, you have to look at specific ATs, Tanks, for example are going to have better Armor than Stalkers.

[BasherBot]

29 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

each AT here has a breakdown of usefulness, I don't feel like converting to 0-255, but I pretty much agree with it.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

 

Also, you have to look at specific ATs, Tanks, for example are going to have better Armor than Stalkers.

Good point... Two characters with the same powersets can have completely different playstyle based on what Archtype you choose 

[Zepp]

I understand that, but that is the AT, I need to break down the powerset balance. The AT breakdown involves three factors, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, and modifiers. That doesn't help me with this current project.

Basically, what I am trying to do is come up with a hex code for each powerset. This will allow me to give each powerset a unique color for a thread I am working on for the suggestions forums.

[Doc_Scorpion]

Honestly, it's not at all clear what you're asking for here.

[BasherBot]

3 hours ago, Zepp said:

I understand that, but that is the AT, I need to break down the powerset balance. The AT breakdown involves three factors, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, and modifiers. That doesn't help me with this current project.

Basically, what I am trying to do is come up with a hex code for each powerset. This will allow me to give each powerset a unique color for a thread I am working on for the suggestions forums.

Archtypes matter... Because a powerset could have vastly different of an impact based on which Archtype it's pulling from. Plus, your score is weird... If you are trying to rate powersets individual... A 1-10 scoring would be simpler. Additionally, swapping support for utility would make more sense (to encompass CC, buffs and healing) and swapping mitigation to durability would make it more understandable.

[Lines]

Since you're using 255 as your highest mark, I gotta assume you're planning on doing something with this data. Can you clue us in at all how you're thinking of using it? It might help us know what sort of feedback would be useful.

 

As others say, it's a bit hard to assess purely against the powersets without regard to AT. A tank's melee set is a different beast to a stalker's melee set.

[Zepp]

@Lines Colors on computers are written in hexcode, a six digit number (actually three two digit numbers) in base 16. As we all know, 100 in base 16 is 256, so a score of 0 to 255 gives you 256 digits, from 00 to FF.

I am planning on compiling archetype and powerset proposals in the suggestion forums. Using a different color for each powerset would provide a visual cue to search for a specific type of powerset either for powerset proposals, or for archetype proposals with that powerset.

 

@BasherBot First off, the score from 0-255, as I explained in the post you quoted, is related to hexcode, for coming up with colors. In terms of support, that is the area for buffs and debuffs. CC and healing fall inbetween support and damage mitigation. Healing is closer to support, CC is closer to mitigation.

Also, the reality is that the damage:support:mitigation ratio for powersets does not change based on archetype, with the exception of ranged on defenders who see the support increase while the damage decreases. That being said, there is more variation within a powerset than between iterations of the powerset in different ATs. Does the melee powerset offer mitigation on a Tanker that isn't there on a Stalker? Anyway, I was just hoping for some help in coming up with these colors.

 

I added color to the OP so that you can see what my proposed numbers look like.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Zepp

[BasherBot]

8 minutes ago, Zepp said:

@Lines Colors on computers are written in hexcode, a six digit number (actually three two digit numbers) in base 16. As we all know, 100 in base 16 is 256, so a score of 0 to 255 gives you 256 digits, from 00 to FF.

I am planning on compiling archetype and powerset proposals in the suggestion forums. Using a different color for each powerset would provide a visual cue to search for a specific type of powerset either for powerset proposals, or for archetype proposals with that powerset.

 

@BasherBot First off, the score from 0-255, as I explained in the post you quoted, is related to hexcode, for coming up with colors. In terms of support, that is the area for buffs and debuffs. CC and healing fall inbetween support and damage mitigation. Healing is closer to support, CC is closer to mitigation.

Also, the reality is that the damage:support:mitigation ratio for powersets does not change based on archetype, with the exception of ranged on defenders who see the support increase while the damage decreases. That being said, there is more variation within a powerset than between iterations of the powerset in different ATs. Does the melee powerset offer mitigation on a Tanker that isn't there on a Stalker? Anyway, I was just hoping for some help in coming up with these colors.

 

I added color to the OP so that you can see what my proposed numbers look like.

Actually yes, yes it does. Blasters have more powersets with access to the damage buff in Aim (and Brute have more sets with access to Build up). And that isn't even considering the Archtype specific passive that would make a different (a fully buffed Brute will have more damage compared to a Scrapper... But Scrappers have crit chance that has a chance for massive damage).

 

Really your going about this all wrong. Powersets differ wildly for generalized grouping and differ even more based on which AT you want to play.

[Lines]

Oh, I managed to miss the earlier post explaining what you were doing.

 

The reason I distinguish tanker melee and stalker melee is Gauntlet, which gives it a support function. That aside, hard to think of any other substantial differences.

 

I feel as though Melee, Ranged and maybe assault should score the same? Do the secondary effects between the powersets differ enough to distinguish them in this way?

 

I'd say Pet Damage should score higher than either support or mitigation, and mitigation second due to bodyguard. The supportive functions of pets tend to be limited to themselves or too uncontrollable to be very useful.

[Doc_Scorpion]

59 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I added color to the OP so that you can see what my proposed numbers look like.

But what they don't show is why you need colors, let alone such a roundabout method of gathering them.

[EmmySky]

I think instead of damage/support/mitigation you should use fun/entertaining/frustrating because the results will mean just as much.

 

Which is to say, it all depends on playstyle, character concept and player (the person behind the curtain).  Very subjective, especially when you bring slotting into it.

 

But I dig your colors!  😀

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

I feel as though Melee, Ranged and maybe assault should score the same? Do the secondary effects between the powersets differ enough to distinguish them in this way?

 

I'd say Pet Damage should score higher than either support or mitigation, and mitigation second due to bodyguard. The supportive functions of pets tend to be limited to themselves or too uncontrollable to be very useful.

For them to function as landmarks they need some degree of separation. I'd have to check to see about the difference in debuff strength between melee and ranged. Ranged, on the other hand, allows for mitigation via reduction in the number of enemy attack options. I may have to play with those numbers.

I the support numbers are in there for pet-buffs within the set.

 

25 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

But what they don't show is why you need colors, let alone such a roundabout method of gathering them.

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

I am planning on compiling archetype and powerset proposals in the suggestion forums. Using a different color for each powerset would provide a visual cue to search for a specific type of powerset either for powerset proposals, or for archetype proposals with that powerset.

They are intended to serve as visual landmarks for the powersets in a large compilation thread I am preparing to make. The reason for the breakdown is to give some sort of objective meaning to the colors. Redder powersets are more damage oriented, bluer ones more mitigation oriented. Green sets are more support oriented. That way when you look at a proposed archetype you already have a significant amount of information before you even have to read a word. Or, if you are scrolling to find control proposals, you can spot the fuchsia-esqe tone while scrolling. Makes searching long threads more manageable.

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Zepp

[Herotu]

I like how the top number 255 like bytes are how power is stored. Funny! 😄

[BasherBot]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

For them to function as landmarks they need some degree of separation. I'd have to check to see about the difference in debuff strength between melee and ranged. Ranged, on the other hand, allows for mitigation via reduction in the number of enemy attack options. I may have to play with those numbers.

I the support numbers are in there for pet-buffs within the set.

 

They are intended to serve as visual landmarks for the powersets in a large compilation thread I am preparing to make. The reason for the breakdown is to give some sort of objective meaning to the colors. Redder powersets are more damage oriented, bluer ones more mitigation oriented. Green sets are more support oriented. That way when you look at a proposed archetype you already have a significant amount of information before you even have to read a word. Or, if you are scrolling to find control proposals, you can spot the fuchsia-esqe tone while scrolling. Makes searching long threads more manageable.

 

 

 

Ranged damage AT are generally low on health (except Sentinals) and their ranged damage powersets have limited to no mitigation options (with some crowd control to raise their support option).

 

For example: My Archery/Atomic Blaster, Archery has would have high damage (high single target, mid AoE), mid support and low mitigation... Where as Atomic Manipulation would have Mid damage, High support and mid mitigation.

 

I'm assuming crowd control counts as support, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that.

[Zepp]

Control is 30% support 70% mitigation, from my perspective. It is about removing or reducing the ability of enemies to deal damage, but also about creating strategic advantage.

Archery is a ranged, Atomic Manipulation is in manipulation, so they are in different categories.

The health and other AT specific modifiers are separate from the powersets themselves, and if we are talking about AT proposals, it is important to consider those in separate camps.

[Replacement]

Jeebus, you seriously want me to measure on a 255 point scale?

 

Well, let's see if we can get you some actual numbers before page 2.  I'm just going to use your chart and mention what I think I would change:

 

Swap stats between Assault and Ranged

Support - I'd lower the damage even further to 25.

Control - Damage 100, support 150, mitigation 200.  I acknowledge I'm mostly forgetting pets in this estimation.

 

About the Assault/Ranged deal:

* Ranged ST holds and such mean it has more mitigation in my mind than support.  There's not much meaningfully different between the rider effects of blasts and melee attacks, which is what I'm characterizing as their "support" contributions.

* I'm less sure of Assault.  I'm afraid of biasing towards the sets I'm most familiar with (electric and martial), which have very little damage mitigation, but I'm focusing instead on the fact that most sets have Power Build Up.  Still, feel free to toss out my opinion on this one because it's... hard.

 

"Support" as a category itself is pretty rough.  Like, is Dark attacks' -ToHit Support, or mitigation?  I'm considering it Support, here but that's not a firm line in the sand.

 

[Zepp]

19 hours ago, Replacement said:

Jeebus, you seriously want me to measure on a 255 point scale?

 

Well, let's see if we can get you some actual numbers before page 2.  I'm just going to use your chart and mention what I think I would change:

 

Swap stats between Assault and Ranged

Support - I'd lower the damage even further to 25.

Control - Damage 100, support 150, mitigation 200.  I acknowledge I'm mostly forgetting pets in this estimation.

 

About the Assault/Ranged deal:

* Ranged ST holds and such mean it has more mitigation in my mind than support.  There's not much meaningfully different between the rider effects of blasts and melee attacks, which is what I'm characterizing as their "support" contributions.

* I'm less sure of Assault.  I'm afraid of biasing towards the sets I'm most familiar with (electric and martial), which have very little damage mitigation, but I'm focusing instead on the fact that most sets have Power Build Up.  Still, feel free to toss out my opinion on this one because it's... hard.

 

"Support" as a category itself is pretty rough.  Like, is Dark attacks' -ToHit Support, or mitigation?  I'm considering it Support, here but that's not a firm line in the sand.

 

I made some of the adjustments. I also re-ordered the sets to make them more rainbowy...
Looking at Assault sets, there tends to be a slight bump in melee attacks over ranged. This (and a desire for separation) is why I adjusted melee support up. Mitigation, CC + distance, is going to be slightly higher for ranged.