Copyrighted Generics Issues

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

You nailed it right here. A lot of people say creative when they really mean original. Creativity is difficult, being truly original is almost impossible for the average person. 

Almost every idea has been done before.

 

Superman, batman and the hulk aren't completely original either.

 

The hulk probably the least so, he is straight up the "atomic" version of Mister Hyde. 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Haijinx said:

The hulk probably the least so, he is straight up the "atomic" version of Mister Hyde. 

Correct.  If you listen to any of the very many interviews Stan Lee gave on the topic, that was his exact inspiration. 

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Blastit said:

If you believe that two characters are too similar because you reduce them down to "they're green" then go invent new colours about it.

Copyright trials have been won based on three consecutive chords in a song, which is just as ridiculous as the color thing you mentioned, so crazy shit happens.

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Almost every idea has been done before.

 

Superman, batman and the hulk aren't completely original either.

 

The hulk probably the least so, he is straight up the "atomic" version of Mister Hyde. 

 

 

Exactly! Which is why ideas by themselves don't really have much value, if any. It's the execution of those ideas that matters.

[Blastit]

I don't care if something is or isn't "truly original", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. I don't care about squabbling over whether or how "creativity" or "originality" are different. I'm just making super heroes and super villains, not creating and destroying entire new art movements. We're playing with building blocks, anyway, not forcing matter into existence from thin air.

 

So all I'd ever expect from someone who wants to play as Batman on a server that prohibits an actual copy of Batman is that they, idk, give him a green cape instead of blue and name him after some kind of lizard perhaps. Not like there isn't a huge wealth of "caped crusaders" that use martial arts, their wits and possibly simple devices or weapons to draw from. Moccasin Man or The Avenging Ape aren't more or less silly than "Bat-Man" anyway.

[ABlueThingy]

10 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Correct and people seem to keep forgetting the specifics of the case and the circumstances behind Marvel bringing the suit.  Marvel was nearly bankrupt and looking for ways to squeeze money out of anyone they could to keep afloat.

That doesn't mean it didn't cost Paragon a lot of time and money to fight them.

 

22 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Absolutely correct and the very heart of the problem.  This is why I had said copyright was never intended to exist in perpetuity any why everyone should be aware of what is going on with the legislation @MunkiLord mentioned. 

Copyright law in America(and by default the rest of the world) is garbage of the highest order and Disney specifically has done massive damage to our culture through it's use of it.  ...But it's still law and still has real world repercussions.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Blastit said:

I don't care if something is or isn't "truly original", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. I don't care about squabbling over whether or how "creativity" or "originality" are different. I'm just making super heroes and super villains, not creating and destroying entire new art movements. We're playing with building blocks, anyway, not forcing matter into existence from thin air.

 

So all I'd ever expect from someone who wants to play as Batman on a server that prohibits an actual copy of Batman is that they, idk, give him a green cape instead of blue and name him after some kind of lizard perhaps. Not like there isn't a huge wealth of "caped crusaders" that use martial arts, their wits and possibly simple devices or weapons to draw from. Moccasin Man or The Avenging Ape aren't more or less silly than "Bat-Man" anyway.

Yeah.

 

If you want to use an established character for inspiration, just make sure its changed enough that its a derivitive character instead of a copy. 

 

Moon Knight was originally a derivative of Batman. 

 

Rohrscarch was a derivative of  The Question.    The Question was a derivative of The Shadow.    

 

How much of your own spin you add, the less people will think  its a copy and more will think its a worthwhile character in its own right.  

 

 

[ZacKing]

14 minutes ago, Blastit said:

The Avenging Ape

Sorry, that's too close to a trademarked name.  You'll need to change it.  Be more creative!

Edited April 22, 2020 by ZacKing

[ShardWarrior]

15 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

That doesn't mean it didn't cost Paragon a lot of time and money to fight them.

I did not suggest otherwise.  I would also add that if businesses are concerned about getting sued by someone, then they probably should not be in business. 

[Haijinx]

The entire Freedom Phalanx is Derivative.  Some more than others 

 

Manticore is a take on  the Green Arrow, in the batman sense that Green Arrow originally was intended. 

 

Statesman is derived from Superman with a dash of Captain America. 

 

Synapse is some kind of derivative of the Flash. 

 

Back Alley Brawler is a take on Luke Cage. 

 

Etc etc.

 

So just follow those examples.

[ABlueThingy]

19 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I did not suggest otherwise.  I would also add that if businesses are concerned about getting sued by someone, then they probably should not be in business. 

Does the inverse hold true? That businesses that want to be in business shouldn't be concerned about getting sued?

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Does the inverse hold true? That businesses that want to be in business shouldn't be concerned about getting sued?

People sue businesses for just about any reason you can think of, legitimate or otherwise.  It is a cost of doing business unfortunately. 

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Does the inverse hold true? That businesses that want to be in business shouldn't be concerned about getting sued?

yeah this is why most companies have insurance policies.  You think they go to work every day worrying about someone slipping and falling on the sidewalk and suing them?

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

People sue businesses for just about any reason you can think of, legitimate or otherwise.  It is a cost of doing business unfortunately. 

That's not exactly what I was saying though.  People who are concerned about getting sued take precautions to avoid being sued.  Every business does that.  From taking out insurance policies to banning dangerous behavior on their property.  Because they are concerned about being sued.

 

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

yeah this is why most companies have insurance policies.  You think they go to work every day worrying about someone slipping and falling on the sidewalk and suing them?

 

 All businesses should take reasonable precautions to avoid getting sued.  Especially if you've been burned in the past.  That's called "Being concerned about getting sued."  Also yes every company with an open lobby where the public is expected to walk on smooth tile floors and there's a possibility of the floors being wet... they go to work every day concerned about it, yeah.  That's why employees are required to watch for spills and mark places the mop and the like.

 

And why if someone was walking around pouring water everywhere you'd ask them to leave.  If the guy pouring water says "Hey, don't be concerned if someone sues you because they broke a hip slipping on my water" that guy would be in the wrong here.

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

29 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

yeah this is why most companies have insurance policies.  You think they go to work every day worrying about someone slipping and falling on the sidewalk and suing them?

 

 

They don't blatantly take identified risks though.  

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Copyright law in America(and by default the rest of the world) is garbage of the highest order and Disney specifically has done massive damage to our culture through it's use of it.

This is something that can't be said enough. 

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Copyright law in America(and by default the rest of the world) is garbage of the highest order and Disney specifically has done massive damage to our culture through it's use of it.  ...But it's still law and still has real world repercussions.

The Mickey Mouse Perpetual Protection Act Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act was a piece of hot garbage. I can see extending the term of copyright for new works going forward, but it should never have applied to copyright terms already in force.

[Blastit]

12 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Sorry, that's too close to a trademarked name.  You'll need to change it.  Be more creative!

The worst that will happen is that I'll have to change it, yeah. Sometimes that's hard, sometimes it's easy and sometimes you like the new name more. Never mind navigating around names that are already taken.

 

If the GMs made this claim in as bad faith as you currently are, the overall HC team would have a pretty big problem on their hands re: mantaining a player base.

[ZacKing]

14 hours ago, Haijinx said:

They don't blatantly take identified risks though.

There is risk in everything you do.  some are more likely than others. what's more likely here?  the owner of the IP pulling the plug on a pirate server running property stolen from them?  or Disney sending a C&D?   again, I completely accept the rules here and have no problem with following them.  of course people who want to make direct copies shouldn't do it.  I'm just questioning the thinking that Disney shutting the game down is a risk to be concerned about.  They haven't done it for decades for games way more popular than this one. 

[ShardWarrior]

11 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The Mickey Mouse Perpetual Protection Act Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act was a piece of hot garbage. I can see extending the term of copyright for new works going forward, but it should never have applied to copyright terms already in force.

Could not agree more about the copyright extensions.  What we are seeing now in Hollywood pumping out remake after remake and other garbage from existing franchises is a direct result of it in my opinion.  It has utterly destroyed creativity and risk in film making. 

[Grouchybeast]

26 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

There is risk in everything you do.  some are more likely than others. what's more likely here?  the owner of the IP pulling the plug on a pirate server running property stolen from them?  or Disney sending a C&D?   again, I completely accept the rules here and have no problem with following them.  of course people who want to make direct copies shouldn't do it.  I'm just questioning the thinking that Disney shutting the game down is a risk to be concerned about.  They haven't done it for decades for games way more popular than this one. 

 

The parties have agreed that protecting intellectual property rights is critically important and each will continue aggressively to protect such rights in accordance with all applicable laws.

 

That's part of the press release that NCSoft put out when they settled the lawsuit with Marvel.  As you correctly point out, HC's main potential problem isn't with Disney or Marvel, it's with NCSoft.  And NCSoft made a legal settlement with Marvel over how copyright/trademark issues would be dealt with in CoH.

 

The HC team aren't just hoping that NCSoft will leave them alone, they're actively trying to negotiate a safer future for the HC servers.  Sure, if your position is that NCSoft will never agree to any kind of licensing deal to legitimize servers anyway, then you might not care what NCSoft thinks about how HC is run.  But the HC team clearly do care about that, and so obviously they're going to do their best to demonstrate to NCSoft that they'll administer the servers in a responsible way that will limit any potential damage to NCSoft.  The best way to demonstrate that is to actually do it, now.  IP enforcement is simply part of that.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[ZacKing]

Yea I can cite all kinds of laws and press releases from a long time ago too.  Times have changed.  This is more about the people who stole the code covering themselves more than looking out for NCSoft.  No court is going to hold NCSoft accountable for something someone else did with property they stole from them.

[MunkiLord]

48 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Yea I can cite all kinds of laws and press releases from a long time ago too.  Times have changed.  This is more about the people who stole the code covering themselves more than looking out for NCSoft.  No court is going to hold NCSoft accountable for something someone else did with property they stole from them.

Right now, you are correct. But if this becomes an officially licensed server, which is the HC team's goal, that very well may change. Looking out for NCSoft is likely merely a means to an end, it will likely help the HC team reach their goal.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Right now, you are correct. But if this becomes an officially licensed server, which is the HC team's goal, that very well may change. Looking out for NCSoft is likely merely a means to an end, it will likely help the HC team reach their goal.

yeah hope springs eternal.  Personally I'm not holding my breath. 

[Golden Azrael]

On 4/22/2020 at 3:16 PM, ZacKing said:

LMAO!  That was what?  15 years ago if not more?

What happened to that lawsuit?  It went nowhere.

It went no where because it was over reach on Marvel's part.

 

Azrael.