Weekly Discussion 48: Dark Armor!

[Cutter]

5 hours ago, Naraka said:

Are tier 9s being presented in the overall set?  I feel, comparatively, Elec's tier 9 is quite harsh but does get added damage/mez but you have to stand in the middle during the crash to get it.  You could almost ignore that part if you're aiming to be careful with it as it's an HP and END drain.  It does have ways of mitigating its crash though if you have a blue pill and Power Sink/Energize recharged but it's still dangerous.

 

Dark Armor is more a set built without needing the tier 9 but if taken, is a handy back-up to add even more ontop of the set.  It's a heal/END replenisher, mez and invuln for a period but you have to go down to use it.  If used intentionally, it can be an effective tool especially if teamed.  But it's pretty quirky.  Overall, the set is made to function at full without the tier 9 but due to its quirks, can add more overall.

 

So one has a crash that can kill but can be mitigated and the other has an anti-crash.

I didn't take T9s in any of those analysis builds. I was looking only at the end management and survival side of things. In hindsight that was a mistake with Ice/, as Hibernate acts as another heal (for both green and blue bars), and - with better than basic slotting - can be built to maintain aggro through a Hibernate nap.

 

As far as Dark's T9 goes, it seems that in general the original armour T9s tend to be skippable due to harsh drawbacks or niche use, while newer sets are built with softer crashes and more likely use. I suspect that that's a long-term goal for an overall "armour set T9 review". Much like blast set nukes had their crashes removed, I wonder if the devs don't have something on the whiteboard to address that on a global scale. For now tho, it's why I suggested adding some "use when alive" functionality which has been made part of some newer sets. In the specific example I used (a port of controler DAff's Soul Absorption) it also happens to enhance the feel/theme of the set as a "drain-to-buff" ability.

 

5 hours ago, Naraka said:

So my next shift in logic is, how are the "compensations" a set gets weighted vs the holes? Is damage that high?  Is Endurance Management powers a different kind of compensation or are they kind of just standard utility for armor sets?  And would the lack of Endurance Management powers in a set be considered a "hole" in that circumstance?

These are good questions. I'm sure at one time there was a closer approximation of balance between the sets and their tradeoffs, but between powerset proliferation, incarnates & general game evolution, whatever balance there might have been has fallen off.

 

I don't have numbers in front of me to say how many mobs/factions inflict the various conditions, KBs, and damage types. Nor how many missions they appear in. Nor (if it's even possible to parse out) which of these the players tend to fight more often than others, outside of farm settings. ("PI Council radios LFM", anyone?) Having even the first set of stats would be a good start in addressing the holes to find out if they are in fact holes in any meaningful sense, and then if they are, just how big are we talking here?

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Sorry, you're incorrect. Colorful colloquialisms do little to aid your cause.

 

And, there's a vast chasm between my previous responses that you are incorrect, showing you your factual errors and your responses that were egregiously brazen, such as instructions to "read the damned" so on.

 

Regardless of what you may think, you have not given any valid objection to an END redux, save "because it's fine," which I already mentioned I respect. Further, your SINGLE objection is valid and should be considered.

 

Unfortunately, you've chose to hold fast to the fallacy of logic you have espoused thus far.

 

Clearly, facts will not dissuade you of your current course, regardless of the precariously awkward light your narrative has cast you in.

 

Emotional digression does little but reveal the fault in one's claim, be it erroneous data or invalid warrant. In this case, I'm afraid you have embraced both, reverting to straw men arguments to divert from evidence.

 

I do respect your single valid objection and hope it is included in the weighting of decision making data; however, your consistent insistence on holding fast to fallacies of logic warrant caution when giving weight to your opinions in the future.

I find it rather hilarious that you're trying to make yourself sound mature with all your intellectual half-speak trying to justify why you keep responding.  You keep stating this or that is fact or that I'm emotional while you continue to attempt to denigrate my opinion that you yourself asked for.  You try to guise your replies as "respectful" as an act to seem rational to everyone around you but frankly, if you wanted to be the "rational" "respectful" individual here, you probably should have quit responding way back when I told you to read my 2nd paragraph.

 

You spout on about fallacies of logic and labels of correct and incorrect but don't understand how immature you're making yourself sound.

 

I'm not claiming to be "respectful", I'll tell you to reread my damned post or go away.  Pretending to act like you are being respectful while being patently disrespectful just goes to show how willing you'd be to stoop to two-faced doublespeak to put on a front to maintain an appearance.

 

Practically this entire quote is nothing but you being disrespectful and then washing your hands of blame so that I seem like the irrational one.  That's fine, I don't really care if I'm seen as the confrontational participant.  I'd rather be frank than be fake.

 

To converge back to your initial question of END reduction: you're viewing it as the default or status quo when in reality it's just one suggestion among others.  Being against a suggestion because you'd rather something else and the request in question possibly hampering other solutions is a viable objection and "because it's fine" is more of an observation than an objection in the first place.  You distilling my reply to a *SINGLE* objection is fine if it helps you somehow understand the post better but ultimately attempts to remove context thus being disingenuous.  Why you want to do that is beyond me, but you keep trying to defend your right to take people out of context so have at it lol

[Nanolathe]

1 hour ago, Cutter said:

I don't have numbers in front of me to say how many mobs/factions inflict the various conditions, KBs, and damage types. Nor how many missions they appear in. Nor (if it's even possible to parse out) which of these the players tend to fight more often than others, outside of farm settings. ("PI Council radios LFM", anyone?) Having even the first set of stats would be a good start in addressing the holes to find out if they are in fact holes in any meaningful sense, and then if they are, just how big are we talking here?

The only time I could really see it as anything more than a momentary inconvenience would be against enemies with very powerful and consistent knockback effects. Anything that can actually pin you in a corner, like a Tsoo Sorcerers' Hurricane or the giant water-spout-tornado-things in Operative Renault's Strikeforce. (Leviathan Badge) 

 

Those are the times when I actually notice that I don't have KB protection, and immediately cause me to spend whatever INF I have at the time grabbing a -4Mag IO enhancement, literally just to function as a melee AT. Funnily enough, whenever I play a melee/defence Archetype with comprehensive protections I really miss being punched hard enough to be knocked away occasionally... or even flipped on my butt. The dynamism of the fight is lost. The enemies feel so tame when the only thing they can do change the numbers on my health bar. It's why I can't stand playing the meathead ATs for more than a little while.

 

Again, the only time I personally even notice that I'm missing KB protection for any of my characters is when the enemies have really obnoxious and constant Knockback/Repel chain or AoE.

 

Coincidentally, I'm one of those "monsters" that will take a stun power, just to slot it with a Stupefy KB proc! I love Knockback!

😉

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I find it rather hilarious that you're trying to make yourself sound mature with all your intellectual half-speak trying to justify why you keep responding.  You keep stating this or that is fact or that I'm emotional while you continue to attempt to denigrate my opinion that you yourself asked for.  You try to guise your replies as "respectful" as an act to seem rational to everyone around you but frankly, if you wanted to be the "rational" "respectful" individual here, you probably should have quit responding way back when I told you to read my 2nd paragraph.

 

You spout on about fallacies of logic and labels of correct and incorrect but don't understand how immature you're making yourself sound.

 

I'm not claiming to be "respectful", I'll tell you to reread my damned post or go away.  Pretending to act like you are being respectful while being patently disrespectful just goes to show how willing you'd be to stoop to two-faced doublespeak to put on a front to maintain an appearance.

 

Practically this entire quote is nothing but you being disrespectful and then washing your hands of blame so that I seem like the irrational one.  That's fine, I don't really care if I'm seen as the confrontational participant.  I'd rather be frank than be fake.

 

To converge back to your initial question of END reduction: you're viewing it as the default or status quo when in reality it's just one suggestion among others.  Being against a suggestion because you'd rather something else and the request in question possibly hampering other solutions is a viable objection and "because it's fine" is more of an observation than an objection in the first place.  You distilling my reply to a *SINGLE* objection is fine if it helps you somehow understand the post better but ultimately attempts to remove context thus being disingenuous.  Why you want to do that is beyond me, but you keep trying to defend your right to take people out of context so have at it lol

Yes but, do you like pie?

[Cutter]

2 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

The only time I could really see it as anything more than a momentary inconvenience would be against enemies with very powerful and consistent knockback effects. Anything that can actually pin you in a corner, like a Tsoo Sorcerers' Hurricane or the giant water-spout-tornado-things in Operative Renault's Strikeforce. (Leviathan Badge) 

 

Those are the times when I actually notice that I don't have KB protection, and immediately cause me to spend whatever INF I have at the time grabbing a -4Mag IO enhancement, literally just to function as a melee AT. Funnily enough, whenever I play a melee/defence Archetype with comprehensive protections I really miss being punched hard enough to be knocked away occasionally... or even flipped on my butt. The dynamism of the fight is lost. The enemies feel so tame when the only thing they can do change the numbers on my health bar. It's why I can't stand playing the meathead ATs for more than a little while.

 

Again, the only time I personally even notice that I'm missing KB protection for any of my characters is when the enemies have really obnoxious and constant Knockback/Repel chain or AoE.

 

Coincidentally, I'm one of those "monsters" that will take a stun power, just to slot it with a Stupefy KB proc! I love Knockback!

😉

I already more or less conceded the point on the KB hole getting filled. As noted there are ways to deal with it.

 

The "big picture" analysis that I would like to see - and which I'm pretty sure would benefit more than just DA - involves looking at all the status effects, conditions, and damage types, and finding a way to review them against the different armour sets and their strengths/weaknesses. For example, to stay on thread & using made-up numbers, if it's determined that DA's weakness to energy is on display against 70% of the game's content, and its strength to psionics is on display against 7% of the game's content, that would be telling. Similar analysis would of course be needed to accurately compare against the other sets, to determine if that's normal behaviour across them or if it's an outlier.

[Nanolathe]

2 hours ago, Cutter said:

I already more or less conceded the point on the KB hole getting filled. As noted there are ways to deal with it.

 

The "big picture" analysis that I would like to see - and which I'm pretty sure would benefit more than just DA - involves looking at all the status effects, conditions, and damage types, and finding a way to review them against the different armour sets and their strengths/weaknesses. For example, to stay on thread & using made-up numbers, if it's determined that DA's weakness to energy is on display against 70% of the game's content, and its strength to psionics is on display against 7% of the game's content, that would be telling. Similar analysis would of course be needed to accurately compare against the other sets, to determine if that's normal behaviour across them or if it's an outlier.

That would also need to take into account whether your character is Blue side, Red side or Gold side and then have allowances made for outleveling contacts or picking specific ones that either highlight or downplay the weaknesses and strengths. For such a big picture analysis you'd have to come to some agreement on what could be considered a standardised progression of content for each of Blue/Red/Gold. You can't realistically include all content that it is possible for a character, since you should then consider every possible way to earn XP as valid content for a character, including patrolling, AE and Radio missions.

 

If we'd like to make suggestions as to a standard of what content should be included, I'd only comfortably be happy to propose story arc content accessible from Oroborus and any Task Forces available to your alignment. That would be your gauntlet. Everything else I'd consider as "side quests" that your character can skip by patrolling/grinding/farming/etc.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Cutter]

5 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

That would also need to take into account whether your character is Blue side, Red side or Gold side and then have allowances made for outleveling contacts or picking specific ones that either highlight or downplay the weaknesses and strengths. For such a big picture analysis you'd have to come to some agreement on what could be considered a standardised progression of content for each of Blue/Red/Gold. You can't realistically include all content that it is possible for a character, since you should then consider every possible way to earn XP as valid content for a character, including patrolling, AE and Radio missions.

 

If we'd like to make suggestions as to a standard of what content should be included, I'd only comfortably be happy to propose story arc content accessible from Oroborus and any Task Forces available to your alignment. Everything else I'd consider as "side quests" that your character can skip by patrolling/grinding/farming/etc.

I never said it would be easy 🙂   And honestly, it's not something that's likely to ever happen because of the sheer scale of the project, as you say. Guess I got a little sidetracked with this one!

[ForeverLaxx]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:39 AM, Nanolathe said:

Oppressive Gloom and Cloak of Fear are two toggles that are severely overlapping in terms of the effective end-goal they wish to achieve. Both give minor control effects; the former stopping attacks but not movement, and the latter reducing movement and attacks if the player does not attack them first. 

 

5. Combine the powers into one, or cut one of them out. My preference would be for keeping the Cloak of Fear, and buffing it to be more effective. Replace Oppressive Gloom with something more thematic or mechanically interesting. Using your own health as a cost for the power is an interesting idea. Having the effect be a Mag2 stun is neither interesting nor in my opinion, congruent. Make it give massive -Regen to enemies around you. Make it -MaxHP over time to enemies around you. Make it -Healing to enemies around you. Make it do all 3!

Removing Oppressive Gloom's stun would completely destroy one of my character's niches and I'd rather that not happen.

[Cutter]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Removing Oppressive Gloom's stun would completely destroy one of my character's niches and I'd rather that not happen.

I would agree with this. Allowing DA's powers to keep doing what they do, but better, is the ideal I'm shooting for. Earlier I'd suggested buffing OG with a chance to proc an extra +1 stun mag, and a +rcv to take the sting out of the -hp. How would that feel?

[Galaxy Brain]

8 hours ago, Cutter said:

I already more or less conceded the point on the KB hole getting filled. As noted there are ways to deal with it.

 

The "big picture" analysis that I would like to see - and which I'm pretty sure would benefit more than just DA - involves looking at all the status effects, conditions, and damage types, and finding a way to review them against the different armour sets and their strengths/weaknesses. For example, to stay on thread & using made-up numbers, if it's determined that DA's weakness to energy is on display against 70% of the game's content, and its strength to psionics is on display against 7% of the game's content, that would be telling. Similar analysis would of course be needed to accurately compare against the other sets, to determine if that's normal behaviour across them or if it's an outlier.

 

 

This is the rough breakdown if every enemy group were evenly distributed. We are currently working on updating this to further drill down how many powers are Half X/Half Y, as well as "weigh" different enemy groups to factor in say... how often you run into Carnies and their Psychic attacks vs how often you run into say, Warriors and all their Smashing/Lethal. 

 

At face value though, Energy damage is more common than Negative and Psychic combined. Knockback is also incredibly common with nearly every Psychic enemy having TK Blast with a chance of KB, all gun toting groups having M30 or Frag Grenade, and so on. Fear and Confusion on the flipside are incredibly rare at least from my memory of combing through.... jeez, 5000 powers NPCs use (purposefully leaving out unique enemies too!) but it'll be worthwhile to comb for Mez 🙂

 

 

Anywho, from a face-value meta standpoint, Dark Armor has it kind of rough where it's weaknesses are actually rather common, while the things it is strongest against are not. At least it's not Ice Armor with it's immunity to... 2% of the game 😛 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Heraclea]

I rolled a DA/Savage tanker on Tuesday and now have her at 32.  She's now heading into the slots levels, after which I will be able to better assess how tough she is. 

 

I have deliberately built the character with every recovery advantage I know how to give.  I knew what she was in for,  She has Health typically frankenslotted with Panacea, Miracle, and Numina procs, as well as Preventative Medicine.  I do this on most of my melee characters as a given.  She has one Performance Shifter proc in Stamina, two 35 straight recovery IOs, and that new set chance for health proc as well.  It has been somewhat difficult to judge the depth of the character's endurance issues as a result.  What was noticeable, when she ran Penny Yin and Synapse, is that she does have strong resistance to endurance drain - comparable to Electric Armor.   She has just picked up Weave, and the first of the savage melee attacks that spend the buff stacks.  These may make a significant difference.  Then again, so may Conserve Power and Physical Perfection. 

 

She was able to slot this way because I have built up a lot of resources to share in my supergroup and as such could twink the character right.  Endurance issues are the no. 1 thing that leads me to abandon characters.  I don't think that the endurance discount of Savage Melee would be enough to carry her on its own.  I did take Cloak of Fear, and may take Cloak of Darkness as well, more for the defense than the stealth.  If I take them all she will have something like 12 toggles including Combat Jumping.  She has eight already. 

 

Her health does yo-yo wildly, especially on something like Synapse.   The Energy weakness shows.  What seems to be carrying her is Dark Regeneration.  The self heal is indeed impressive and as long as it's up the health yo-yo does not concern me greatly.   When it starts to slide and DR is not available there will be trouble. 

 

I am seeing another lowbie niche character, one that gets trotted out whenever Penny Yin or Synapse are the weekly targets.  I have a regen scrapper and a fire/DB brute currently in that niche, but it will be good to have a tanker that can fill the role also.  Especially one that can laugh off Super Stunners.  On a tanker, everything in the armor set that directly keeps you alive is in play by level 12.  Playing level 12 content with level 50 slots is much more fun than it was at level 12.  Unlike Regen, Dark Armor is probably capable of tanking level 50 content also.  Hopefully once the armors get slotted up the yo-yo factor will diminish.  We will see. 

[Cutter]

@Heraclea, would you be willing to share that build? I've got my old main reimagined in that spec, and he's languishing at 35. I have not invested in him beyond a couple -KBs and the Theft of Essence proc at this point, but do have a full IO build planned out. Gotta say I find myself in agreement with your speculation about Savage's end discount - it's not enough on its own.

 

Dark Regen frankly is the star of the set; without it DA would be far more painful. A "regular" heal like Fire's, or a +HP like Ice and Invul get, or even a weaker mob-targetted one like you see in Rad or Bio, just wouldn't cut it in Dark Armour. It needs that strong of a heal because the rest of its protections let it down. And I'd argue that it's a questionable design decision to build a set around a horrifically expensive heal that, in a lot of cases, needs to fire as soon as it's off cooldown. That's a massive chunk out of the old blue bar, especially at low levels. It doesn't get a whole lot more palatable with advanced slotting either. Screenie of my intended final build's slotted Dark Regen (feel free to critique!):

 

 

Even with a massive end redux, including Cardiac, it's still a significant hit every time I use it, basically 1 end/second out of my total. I can't think of any other sets where that cost is effectively required to compete. Please feel free to (nicely) tell me I'm wrong tho; there's always more to learn!

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Cutter said:

I would agree with this. Allowing DA's powers to keep doing what they do, but better, is the ideal I'm shooting for. Earlier I'd suggested buffing OG with a chance to proc an extra +1 stun mag, and a +rcv to take the sting out of the -hp. How would that feel?

I personally like the suggestion to give OG -def.  I don't think it needs a +mag chance since a lot of melee sets get stunning attacks.

 

21 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Dark Regen frankly is the star of the set; without it DA would be far more painful. A "regular" heal like Fire's, or a +HP like Ice and Invul get, or even a weaker mob-targetted one like you see in Rad or Bio, just wouldn't cut it in Dark Armour. It needs that strong of a heal because the rest of its protections let it down. And I'd argue that it's a questionable design decision to build a set around a horrifically expensive heal that, in a lot of cases, needs to fire as soon as it's off cooldown. That's a massive chunk out of the old blue bar, especially at low levels. It doesn't get a whole lot more palatable with advanced slotting either. Screenie of my intended final build's slotted Dark Regen (feel free to critique!):

 

Even with a massive end redux, including Cardiac, it's still a significant hit every time I use it, basically 1 end/second out of my total. I can't think of any other sets where that cost is effectively required to compete. Please feel free to (nicely) tell me I'm wrong tho; there's always more to learn!

I'd say that's more the nature of the set.  One could consider the types of changes that could be made to ease your perceptions that DA is too reliant on Dark Regen...likely would require increases to defense or resists, toning down of Dark Regen's heal, shift it to +absorb or +regen, standardizing the END costs so that a +recovery tool can be added.  But then what do you have?  A resist set with a standard heal, standard +END/recovery and a bit of flavor in "skippable" mez auras or maybe even cutting out that for some other pro-meta effects.

 

I criticize the meta not because I don't like it (it's inevitable one forms in every game), but rather it's pushing things to become meta.  Most semblances of differentiation are targeted and ironed out to conform to the meta rather than the meta players just playing their meta builds and leaving the quirky non-meta stuff to those that enjoy it.  I think the set would be more effective if its mitigation was shifted so Dark Regen wasn't such a massive heal but easier to use and more comprehensive protections so you don't suffer from yo-yo HP...but some people actually enjoy playing with this massive heal and overcoming certain build speedbumps or receiving boons from teammates that drastically alters their effectiveness.

[metacore]

I rolled a Dark/Sav Tank as well but about a week before this post went up.
Struggled with a build but below is what Im planning.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1598&c=710&a=1420&f=HEX&dc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

Not planning on taking CoF or OG (at this stage).

Only just hit lvl 30 and only have the following IO set pieces in place:

- Miracle Proc

- Numi Proc

- Perf Shifter Proc + Perf Sifter End Mod

- Karma KB

Running Lvl 30 normal IO's for the rest of my current slots.
EndUsage isnt much of an issue but I have Sprint off in combat. Tought/Weave are 2x EndRed + 1 Def or Res (as appropriate). 
Dark Emb + MurkyC have 1x EndRed + 3x Res.
DeathShroud is NOT on yet as I cant afford the End (ned more slots).
When I use my Blood Frenzy spender I notice the drop in End. Typically use it, hit Blood Thirst to get it back straight away.

Not sure if my proposed build will work or not.
With Accolades (all +HP and End) and Cardiac Core I will eventually have the following:
RES
S/L = 90%+
F/C = 90%+
Nrg = 76.5%
Neg = 90%+
Tox = 50.6%
Psi = 84.2%

Def
S/L = 41.7%
F/C/Nrg/Neg/Psi = 27%
Melee = 48.9%
R/AoE = 27%

Regen = 236%
MaxHP = 137.3%
EndRec = 3.64/s
EndUse = 1.18/s

[Nanolathe]

9 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Removing Oppressive Gloom's stun would completely destroy one of my character's niches and I'd rather that not happen.

 

7 hours ago, Cutter said:

I would agree with this. Allowing DA's powers to keep doing what they do, but better, is the ideal I'm shooting for. Earlier I'd suggested buffing OG with a chance to proc an extra +1 stun mag, and a +rcv to take the sting out of the -hp. How would that feel?

Mostly the reason I have for needing Opressive Gloom and Cloak of Fear to be looked at, is that they're two powers that are effectively competing with each other for the same goal, and doing it in the exact same way.

 

They're both PBAoE toggles that give you poor soft control that needs to be combined with your primary or pool powers to be at all impactful.

 

And very frequently your primary many not even have access to stun or fear effects... especially fear effects. That's why I'd like to keep Cloak of Fear, as it's the more unique effect of the two, but increase its functionality and power to a point where it actually does something to at least Lts, and have a secondary effect that debuffs bosses in an appreciable way too, but not provide the fear factor out of the box. IOs would probably solve that shortfall if slotted correctly.

 

Oppressive Gloom is just... the same but worse power in my eyes. It does one thing interestingly different, it uses your health as a resource rather than your endurance, but the payoff for that investment is staggeringly bad. You have to micromanage the power the whole time because leaving it on by accident can be disastrous. Granted, it combos better with more primaries but for me, its not on theme. You're giving a portion of your life to the netherworld, and what do you get? 

 

A mag2 stun aura. How does the one, follow the other? It's a unique cost to pay, and you get an entirely skippable power effect from it. Blaagh 🙄

 

---

 

The problem is that if you make both of these powers mag3 (or mag 2 with a chance of 3) then you still have the "same" powers that are still stepping on each others toes. A stunned and feared foe is not really any different from a stunned one. Oppressive Gloom's potential effect outclasses Cloak of Fear's. Stun is better than fear in nearly any situation and plays better with your damage aura, and combos better with more primary sets... and still it is a skippable power! Fear is the more unique power effect, but is so poorly supported, and clashes with your damage aura to such a comical degree, that it too is entirely skippable. They're both terrible powers that would still compete against each other even if you made them both "good".

 

And again, They do the same thing - PBAoE, 3rd-rate soft control. And they are both skippable powers! Dark Armour, that's boring. You're being boring Dark Armour. Stop being boring!

Do. Something. Different!

 

At least, that's the way I look at it. I'm almost certainly in the minority, and possibly wrong. And almost certainly asking "too much" for one or other of the powers to be fundamentally different to how it operates now. Cottage rule, etc, etc. I just see picking one of the powers as making the other redundant in normal play situations, and I'm of the opinion that powers within the same set should not make its other powers redundant.

 

Am I missing something here? Why does any player want two soft control PBAoE powers within the same set?

 

---

 

@ForeverLaxx, I apologise to you. This is not a judgement of you, your values, or your character. I do not wish to come across as someone that just wants to take away what you like. I see your perspective. I didn't mean to single out your preferred playstyle as what should be considered the "wrong" way to play. As stated above, Oppressive Gloom's effect is the more powerful of the two and has more synergies to exploit, so I can see why some people would be more attached to the power than Cloak of Fear's relatively weaker suite of synergistic selections.

 

However, this is me looking at the failure of Dark Armour as a powerset from a design perspective, and the overlap of CoF and OG is part of that. I chose to try to salvage Cloak of Fear because it's the more interesting design space to explore, since fear effects are so completely underrepresented in game. 

 

I understand that you have an attachment to the power, being part of your character's niche. But I don't have any attachment to it. In fact, I actively avoid Oppressive Gloom and playing Dark Armour not because the set is weak (with IOs it really isn't), but precisely because the power selection dries up between 28 and 38. (actually from 20, since Cloak of Darkness can jog on too). Just buffing the powers that suck doesn't stop them competing with each other, nor stop me seeing it as uninspired design... as wasted design space. It's a special kind of powerset that manages to set a whole third of its 9 powers as easily skippable without any negative impact on performance... as long as you like Combat Jumping. 

 

Reminds me of Mastermind Primaries. 🙃

Edited April 30, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Galaxy Brain]

Hmm, dark regen is too strong I think....

 

Buff the amount you heal from the 1st target, but then gut the amount you get per additional target. Lower the endurance cost as well. You can heal to pretty much full off of 2 people right now making the target cap for it kind of pointless as you'll never need to actually leech off it's full capacity.

 

Changing that up a bit, we should have room to buff other parts of the set while keeping its lvl relatively the same.

[Heraclea]

7 hours ago, Cutter said:

@Heraclea, would you be willing to share that build? I've got my old main reimagined in that spec, and he's languishing at 35. I have not invested in him beyond a couple -KBs and the Theft of Essence proc at this point, but do have a full IO build planned out. Gotta say I find myself in agreement with your speculation about Savage's end discount - it's not enough on its own.

Sure - this is a direct readout of her current build in game.  This is quite ad-hoc, composed while levelling on the fly.  I have not sat down in Mids and made a plan.  If it gets too bad I may frankenslot the Gauntleted Fist two apiece in several powers the way I did on Heraclea:

Spoiler

 

Anima Sola: Level 32 Magic Class_Tanker

Character Profile:
------------------
Level 1: Inherent Inherent Brawl
    Generic_Clockwork_Efficiency (1)
Level 1: Inherent Inherent prestige_DVD_Glidep
    EMPTY
Level 1: Inherent Inherent Sprint
    Crafted_Run (25)
Level 2: Inherent Inherent Rest
    EMPTY
Level 2: Inherent Fitness Swift
    Crafted_Run (25)
Level 2: Inherent Fitness Hurdle
    Crafted_Jump (30)
Level 2: Inherent Fitness Health
    Crafted_Panacea_F (10)
    Attuned_Numinas_Convalesence_F (1)
    Attuned_Miracle_F (1)
    Attuned_Preventive_Medicine_F (1)
Level 2: Inherent Fitness Stamina
    Attuned_Performance_Shifter_F (1)
    Crafted_Recovery (30)
    Crafted_Recovery (30)
    Crafted_Power_Transfer_F (30)
Level 1: Tanker_Defense Dark_Armor Dark_Embrace
    Attuned_Steadfast_Protection_B (1)
    Crafted_Steadfast_Protection_C (10)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (35)
    Crafted_Impervium_Armor_E (20)
Level 8: Tanker_Defense Dark_Armor Dark_Regeneration
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_D (27)
    Crafted_Theft_of_Essence_A (21)
    Crafted_Accuracy (30)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (35)
    Crafted_Obliteration_B (30)
Level 10: Tanker_Defense Dark_Armor Obsidian_Shield
    Crafted_Res_Damage (30)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (30)
Level 16: Tanker_Defense Dark_Armor Murky_Cloud
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (30)
    Crafted_Res_Damage (30)
Level 22: Tanker_Defense Dark_Armor Death_Shroud
    Crafted_Eradication_D (27)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (30)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (20)
Level 26: Tanker_Defense Dark_Armor Cloak_of_Fear
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (30)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (35)
Level 1: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Savage_Strike
    Crafted_Pulverizing_Fisticuffs_B (20)
    Crafted_Focused_Smite_C (35)
    Crafted_Accuracy (30)
Level 2: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Maiming_Slash
    Crafted_Crushing_Impact_C (30)
    Crafted_Crushing_Impact_F (30)
    Crafted_Accuracy (30)
Level 4: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Shred
    Attuned_Gauntleted_Fist_A (1)
    Attuned_Gauntleted_Fist_C (1)
    Attuned_Gauntleted_Fist_B (1)
    Attuned_Gauntleted_Fist_F (1)
Level 14: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Taunt
    Crafted_Recharge (20)
Level 18: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Vicious_Slash
    Crafted_Accuracy (20)
    Crafted_Makos_Bite_A (32)
    Crafted_Damage (25)
    Crafted_Damage (30)
Level 20: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Blood_Thirst
    Crafted_Recharge (30)
    Crafted_Recharge (20)
    Crafted_Recharge (35)
Level 30: Tanker_Melee Savage_Melee Rending_Flurry
    Crafted_Accuracy (35)
    Crafted_Damage (30)
Level 6: Pool Leaping Long_Jump
    Attuned_Winters_Gift_C (1)
Level 12: Pool Leaping Combat_Jumping
    Crafted_Karma_C (20)
Level 24: Pool Fighting Kick
    EMPTY
Level 28: Pool Fighting Tough
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (35)
Level 32: Pool Fighting Weave
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (35)
Level 32: Redirects Inherents Gauntlet_Proc
------------------

 

 

[Naraka]

22 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hmm, dark regen is too strong I think....

 

Buff the amount you heal from the 1st target, but then gut the amount you get per additional target. Lower the endurance cost as well. You can heal to pretty much full off of 2 people right now making the target cap for it kind of pointless as you'll never need to actually leech off it's full capacity.

 

Changing that up a bit, we should have room to buff other parts of the set while keeping its lvl relatively the same.

That's probably dipping your toes into a lot of other aspects of balancing the power that you'd be contending with.

 

Would gutting the heal mean that you'd need more than 2 targets to top yourself off?  And would that be enough to lower the endurance cost if it effectively performs the same?  You'd moreso need to gut the cooldown than you would the END cost as a full heal or near full heal every 30sec contributes to effectiveness.  Doesn't seem justified compared to heals like Reconstruction that have a 1min cooldown and a 50% heal but both also costing the same-ish END.  

 

I would say, adding a slight debuff to rech to it would be a nice opportunity if the cost doesn't seem worthwhile.

[Cutter]

Some really good material overnight!

 

I struggle with the idea of removing or wholesale changing powers. I'd still much rather tweak to retain the core functionality while improving effects and contribution to theme/identity. That said, I can completely see the argument being made against the overlapping aspects of Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom. If there was a way to make them work together, feed off each other... e.g. fear ticks apply a slow/-tohit on stunned mobs, stun ticks apply a -def/-res on feared mobs... dunno, that's a not-thought-out early morning idea that prolly doesn't fly, but I'm putting it out there anyway for discussion.

 

The better ("better" being wildly subjective of course) plan is still tweaking the underperforming/skippable powers to be (a) more desirable, (b) more useful, and (c) more in line with the set's as-described flavour of draining enemies to strengthen the user. Again, the goal as I see it is taking what's unique about DA and making it stand out, cranking the flavour knob as it were. I don't want to see DA homogenized with the rest of the armour sets - frankly that's where it is now in powers-taken terms: defenses, mez prot, damage aura, done. The cool stuff is left on the bench.

 

 

[Heraclea]

Mechanically, one thing I have noticed in my HC journey with the set is the lack of resistance to -recharge debuffs.  On a tanker set that relies so heavily on its self-heal, this should be a given.  Burned a Winter's Gift I had not planned to use to add a bit. 

[Rylas]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hmm, dark regen is too strong I think....

 

Buff the amount you heal from the 1st target, but then gut the amount you get per additional target. Lower the endurance cost as well. You can heal to pretty much full off of 2 people right now making the target cap for it kind of pointless as you'll never need to actually leech off it's full capacity.

 

Changing that up a bit, we should have room to buff other parts of the set while keeping its lvl relatively the same.

I was having a hard time finding the words to express this, but you've captured it. DR is punished for its overkill. What's more, in drawn out AV or boss fights, its endurance cost will prevent you from surviving the fight. Considering the prevalence of Energy damage bosses and AVs can have, DA's mitigation won't be enough for single target DR heals to do the job needed. Especially if you don't have the endurance for it during a prolonged battle.

This kind of balance adjustment would be a great answer.

[Nanolathe]

2 hours ago, Cutter said:

Some really good material overnight!

 

I struggle with the idea of removing or wholesale changing powers. I'd still much rather tweak to retain the core functionality while improving effects and contribution to theme/identity. That said, I can completely see the argument being made against the overlapping aspects of Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom. If there was a way to make them work together, feed off each other... e.g. fear ticks apply a slow/-tohit on stunned mobs, stun ticks apply a -def/-res on feared mobs... dunno, that's a not-thought-out early morning idea that prolly doesn't fly, but I'm putting it out there anyway for discussion.

 

The better ("better" being wildly subjective of course) plan is still tweaking the underperforming/skippable powers to be (a) more desirable, (b) more useful, and (c) more in line with the set's as-described flavour of draining enemies to strengthen the user. Again, the goal as I see it is taking what's unique about DA and making it stand out, cranking the flavour knob as it were. I don't want to see DA homogenized with the rest of the armour sets - frankly that's where it is now in powers-taken terms: defenses, mez prot, damage aura, done. The cool stuff is left on the bench.

The thing that really busts my noodle is how the Cloak of Fear interacts with Death Shroud. They're really bad bedfellows.

[Cutter]

12 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

The thing that really busts my noodle is how the Cloak of Fear interacts with Death Shroud. They're really bad bedfellows.

It's almost... almost... like the set was built with a "let's plug in a bunch of random mechanics that all vaguely seem darkity-dark-dark" approach, rather than a measured analysis of what each power actually does and how the powers interact with each other.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 4/29/2020 at 5:38 AM, Metatheory said:

those challenges are the reason why it is interesting to play.

 

 

 

Great post from top to bottom, but this line is the best part. 

 

We don't need every set to have the ease of play of Willpower and the strength of Bio and the AoE of Fire.  If you don't like the challenge, don't play the set.  If you can't meet the challenge, don't play the set.  Don't take the challenge away simply because you can't figure it out.

 

Please stop the power creep.  Maybe Dark Armor is the shortest kid in the class, but he is still tall enough to ride the ride.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Cutter said:

It's almost... almost... like the set was built with a "let's plug in a bunch of random mechanics that all vaguely seem darkity-dark-dark" approach, rather than a measured analysis of what each power actually does and how the powers interact with each other.

Wasn't DA made during the era of 1 toggle at a time or some such?  I didn't play back then but I would assume the utility was in choosing which effect you wanted to persist rather than trying to compound all effects of the set together.

 

That being said, many have complained how Cloak of Fear and Death Shroud counteract each other, I'll remind you that Stalkers don't get Death Shroud and they have access to an AoE fear in demoralize so perhaps the focus on synergy shouldn't be dead focused on just the two powers' interaction but rather the tactics you're deploying.  I mean, if you turned Death Shroud off and just ran Cloak of Fear, would you really be leveraging the effect that much more if you're spamming Spin or Whirling Sword?  Or perhaps you're leveraging it enough because the effects of your other AoEs help suppress movement through effects like knockdown thus Death Shroud is adding damage onto that.

 

To clarify what I'm saying is, if your goal is to suppress foes, why run Death Shroud?  If you want to deal damage, some of the utility of suppressing foes is dampened but that'd be the case with most AoE powers used but you can still compound other effects like KD with both to achieve similar effect and deal damage.  Expecting anything more and you're running into limitations of the terrorize mez effect, not Cloak of Fear specifically to which then it might be better to review the terrorize effect.