Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[liquiddragon]

I have over 40 characters and every single one has hasten.  I have brawl on every single one of my toons but never use it and only have it because i want tough and weave.  I would be happy if they got rid of that stupid power but its just my opinion and im sure there are people that may actually use it.  

[ABlueThingy]

I'd rather see Hasten changed to be somewhat conditional.

 

Like made into a toggle that gives 50-75% of it's current boost but the higher your current speed is the more bonus recharge it adds on(potentially raising it over it's old numbers).  If you can maintain a character at the speed cap and control them you wind up with tons of bonus +rech.

 

Or that it has to be "reved up" before giving you a full boost.  Say once you click it you have 5 seconds to hit itmore times and each one is a stacking 20% +rech/-end red.  The more global recharge you have the more times you can hit hasten in that window and the more +recharge you can squeeze out of it.

 

Or anything so it's not such an unalloyed good.  AND I SAY THIS NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO NERF HASTEN(per say).  But because I want to open up the design space a bit so we can have more interesting powers in the pools without every pool having to justify itself against Hasten. As long as we have limited pools and limited power picks that is an issue.

 

 

(imo this all applies to Weave too)

[ShardWarrior]

18 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Or anything so it's not such an unalloyed good.  AND I SAY THIS NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO NERF HASTEN(per say).  But because I want to open up the design space a bit so we can have more interesting powers in the pools without every pool having to justify itself against Hasten. As long as we have limited pools and limited power picks that is an issue.

I think it worth repeating an earlier sentiment made by a few people in this thread - make other pools more attractive.  The problem is not that hasten is that great.  It is that other pools are that bad.

[KelvinKole]

I'm a fan of hasten. I use it in every one of my builds. I'm reluctant to say it's too good, but the pragmatic side of me tends to think it is. I don't have issue with what it does, but I do think it's takes way too little investment to reap the rewards. It's a first tier power pool option, requiring no other investment in the Speed pool to unlock, and doesn't need any enhancement slots dedicated to it to be effective. 

 

Hasten probably shouldn't effect itself. It's a little like a finger pointing at its own tip. It provides a massive global recharge buff and also encourages higher uptime of itself by reducing its own recharge time. Obviously there are other powers in the game that also function this way, but as zero investment pool power it should have some limits. 

[Infinitum]

19 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Obviously there are other powers in the game that also function this way, but as zero investment pool power it should have some limits. 

Why?

[Infinitum]

On 4/22/2020 at 7:49 PM, ABlueThingy said:

I'd rather see Hasten changed to be somewhat conditional.

 

Like made into a toggle that gives 50-75% of it's current boost but the higher your current speed is the more bonus recharge it adds on(potentially raising it over it's old numbers).  If you can maintain a character at the speed cap and control them you wind up with tons of bonus +rech.

 

Or that it has to be "reved up" before giving you a full boost.  Say once you click it you have 5 seconds to hit itmore times and each one is a stacking 20% +rech/-end red.  The more global recharge you have the more times you can hit hasten in that window and the more +recharge you can squeeze out of it.

 

Or anything so it's not such an unalloyed good.  AND I SAY THIS NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO NERF HASTEN(per say).  But because I want to open up the design space a bit so we can have more interesting powers in the pools without every pool having to justify itself against Hasten. As long as we have limited pools and limited power picks that is an issue.

 

 

(imo this all applies to Weave too)

Thats not how it works, not one single power in my plan is based off how good hasten is, except maybe my illusion rad.

 

To open up the design space make the crap powers and pools not crap anymore.

 

Again... 

 

None of that is hastens fault.

[Zepp]

Just some perspective. Hasten is a good power, but the reason so many people take it is that it is perceived to be a great power. Combat Jumping is in almost all of my builds, but nobody complains about Combat Jumping.

An example, 122.5% global recharge is needed for perma-dom, 122.5% global recharge + hasten is needed for two-slot perma-hasten. In other words, most doms that can get perma-hasten can get perma-dom without hasten...

Edited April 27, 2020 by Zepp

[KelvinKole]

9 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Why?

The investment required relative to what it does seems unbalanced. I'll try and draw some comparisons:

 

Aid Other (Medicine) Vs. Heal Other (Empathy): Aid Other only does 2% less healing, using Controller numbers, but has less range, higher recharge, and longer cast time.

 

Kick (Fighting) Vs. Thunder Kick (Martial Arts): Identical damage, using Brute numbers, but Kick costs more endurance and has a longer activation time.

 

Provoke (Presence) Vs. Taunt: Same recharge and radius, but Provoke has reduced duration and range and offers no -range

 

Stealth (Concealment) Vs. Energy Cloak: Stealth costs more endurance, provides ~2% less defense, and slows your movement.

 

Hasten (Speed) Vs. N/A: There's nearly nothing in the game to compare it to. Arguably the best single target +recharge buff is Speed boost, which provides 20% less recharge reduction. Other powers possibly in this category are Lighting Reflexes and Quickness, which each give 50% less than Hasten. But, as i said, there's essentially no other self recharge buffs that come close and that's probably a problem. So, I'm just recognizing that Hasten is an outlier. It is a VERY good power for a 1st tier pool power and provides the single highest recharge buff in the game, that I could find.

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, KelvinKole said:

It is a VERY good power for a 1st tier pool power and provides the single highest recharge buff in the game, that I could find.

It also costs a power pick and sloting that can be used for something else.  Not everyone uses Hasten.  I think out of my 20 or so level 50s maybe 1 has it.

[Pzn]

19 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

It also costs a power pick and sloting that can be used for something else.  Not everyone uses Hasten.  I think out of my 20 or so level 50s maybe 1 has it.

Very very few people skip it.  I never come across a build without it.

[ShardWarrior]

20 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

Very very few people skip it.  I never come across a build without it.

"Very very few skip it" confirms not everyone takes it.

[Galaxy Brain]

48 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

"Very very few skip it" confirms not everyone takes it.

This is a silly argument and you know it 

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is a silly argument and you know it 

There is nothing to argue.  Not everyone takes hasten is true.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

There is nothing to argue.  Not everyone takes hasten is true.

Right, but the way you are framing it seems to ignore that a vast majority of people do

[ShardWarrior]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, but the way you are framing it seems to ignore that a vast majority of people do

I did not ignore that at all.  I simply stated not everyone takes it, which is true.

[Zepp]

popular ≠ good

As I have stated on multiple occasions. Most builds do not need hasten. Most dps builds maximize their need for recharge around 70-100%, meaning they would have to sacrifice enhancements and a power slot to hit the 120ish recharge needed for perma-hasten to have a build that doesn't feel lumpy.

Hasten is a good power, it is better than many of the pool powers. That being said, it does not perform better than a primary or secondary power, and it is not a necessary power.

[KelvinKole]

18 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I did not ignore that at all.  I simply stated not everyone takes it, which is true.

Is that really the point of this conversation, though? I hope not. We don't need to spend time trying to determine how many people take it, it doesn't matter. The topic is whether or not the power itself is unbalanced.

 

9 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Hasten is a good power, it is better than many of the pool powers. That being said, it does not perform better than a primary or secondary power, and it is not a necessary power.

 

I looked and didn't find any. What other primary/secondary powers provide 70% global recharge to yourself or teammates?

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Is that really the point of this conversation, though? I hope not. We don't need to spend time trying to determine how many people take it, it doesn't matter. The topic is whether or not the power itself is unbalanced.

I was not the one who brought it up.  Some are using the argument that "a lot of people take it" therefore it must be imbalanced.  A lot of people do a lot of things.  That does not mean every popular choices needs changing.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

The issue circles back to how there are not picks that are competitive with Hasten, aside from a few utility ones like com at jumping. On top of this, the effect it gives is so important that it is a no brainer to take for many many builds

[ZacKing]

58 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The issue circles back to how there are not picks that are competitive with Hasten, aside from a few utility ones like com at jumping. On top of this, the effect it gives is so important that it is a no brainer to take for many many builds

It can't be that important to me if I've never taken it.  none of my friends take it either.  You just don't need it.  but that's beside the point.  Hasten is taken a lot because most other pools suck, outside the fighting pool.

[Galaxy Brain]

21 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

It can't be that important to me if I've never taken it.  none of my friends take it either.  You just don't need it.  but that's beside the point.  Hasten is taken a lot because most other pools suck, outside the fighting pool.

Statistically, it seems to be the 2nd most taken pool power period as of the last count, only beaten out by Fly by the player base across ALL levels (just highlighting the top 20):

 

Rank	Pool	Power	Count
1	Flight	Fly	182,678
2	Speed	Hasten	155,593
3	Leaping	Super Jump	129,071
4	Leaping	Combat Jumping	93,131
5	Speed	Super Speed	84,821
6	Leadership	Maneuvers	81,608
7	Leadership	Assault	67,619
8	Fighting	Tough	64,450
9	Sorcery	Mystic Flight	64,107
10	Sorcery	Translocation	64,107
11	Flight	Combat Flight	63,981
12	Leadership	Tactics	58,053
13	Fighting	Weave	52,046
14	Fighting	Boxing	50,057
15	Fighting	Kick	36,141
16	Invisibility	Stealth	34,672
17	Teleportation	Recall Friend	34,265
18	Teleportation	Teleport	25,523
19	Flight	Afterburner	18,983
20	Sorcery	Arcane Bolt	17,315

 

Source:

 

Seen above, Hasten is incredibly popular over all but the most iconic of travel powers. It was picked 1.21x more than Super Jump, 1.67x more than Combat Jumping, 1.83x more than Super Speed, and 1.91x more than Maneuvers. This definitely says something about the state of the other Pool Picks when there is 1 buff in the top 5 among the big 3 travel powers + the best mini-travel power.

[kenlon]

On 4/23/2020 at 11:23 AM, ShardWarrior said:

The problem is not that hasten is that great. 

Hasten is that great, though. It's a bad power from a design perspective, because it gives you something you can't get elsewhere (making everything you have recharge faster) and it's not something that is built into (and thus balanced against) individual sets, but it a universal thing. Of course it's going to be taken very heavily. Even with the dilution of it's uniqueness via IO set bonuses also providing recharge, it's still going to always be a better single power pick than anything else from pools can possibly be. 

 

I don't think it should be nerfed, since it's been part of the game so long that removing it would require monumental rebalancing to make players not hate it, but there's no way to defend Hasten as being good design.

[ZacKing]

10 minutes ago, kenlon said:

Hasten is that great, though. It's a bad power from a design perspective, because it gives you something you can't get elsewhere (making everything you have recharge faster) and it's not something that is built into (and thus balanced against) individual sets, but it a universal thing. Of course it's going to be taken very heavily. Even with the dilution of it's uniqueness via IO set bonuses also providing recharge, it's still going to always be a better single power pick than anything else from pools can possibly be. 

 

I don't think it should be nerfed, since it's been part of the game so long that removing it would require monumental rebalancing to make players not hate it, but there's no way to defend Hasten as being good design.

Of course you can't get it anywhere else.  It's in the SPEED pool for a reason.  Of course it's going to be a preferred pick when the majority of other pool powers are shit.  Make better pool powers.

[ShardWarrior]

13 minutes ago, kenlon said:

I don't think it should be nerfed, since it's been part of the game so long that removing it would require monumental rebalancing to make players not hate it, but there's no way to defend Hasten as being good design.

It makes certain long recharging power picks palatable and I am sure players in the PvP community like having powers up as often as possible.  Hasten is taken heavily because most all other pool choices stink.  Even removing it completely does not make the game any better.  People are going to steamroll content without it.

[MTeague]

About 40% of my characters use Hasten.  The others just don't need it. 

Of course, I also don't care if my characters have made 100% optimal choices in all cases. 

I'm fine with being quite effective but slightly under what I could be, if it means staying true to character concept and theme.