Your best 4+/8 MM build?

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Huh I was told that the floor was 25% of whatever their regeneration was starting from 100%. 

 

A lot of debuffs are limited to 25% floor (damage, for example). But others have different floors... I think movement speed is 10% (not sure what Recharge is, but I think it's 25%), and Regeneration and Recovery are both 0%.

[Tiklandian]

So I'm hearing Demons/EA is a top contender? Fact or Fiction?

[Coyote]

9 hours ago, Tiklandian said:

So I'm hearing Demons/EA is a top contender? Fact or Fiction?

 

Semi-fact.

Demons are one of the top two damage primaries (with Thugs), and also solid defensively.

EA is excellent defensively and the +Resist bubble works great with the Demons Resists, and having it give Knockdown protection is great for Demons since they take longer than other henchmen to get up (at least, the three bigger guys do).

 

EA does not help much offensively, just a bit of +ToHit and +Damage, and it's a bit busy so it cuts down into the ability to use whip attacks a lot (although it gives +Endurance so it allows you to actually use the whip and not get drained too badly). So it doesn't help that much offensively.

 

So, overall, Demons/EA should be top contenders on the defense side, while also doing good damage, but are not top contenders on the damage side. But they are still good damage, because Demons are good damage even without help. It might be a "top" contender depending on how far down the chart of "best combinations" you would go and still call something a top build, but even if it's not, it will be close to it.

 

Also, the whip attacks are fun. And electroshocking your Demons when they misbehave (which is approximately 103% of the time) is also fun. So... it's a top contender for fun 😄

[Tiklandian]

21 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Semi-fact.

Demons are one of the top two damage primaries (with Thugs), and also solid defensively.

EA is excellent defensively and the +Resist bubble works great with the Demons Resists, and having it give Knockdown protection is great for Demons since they take longer than other henchmen to get up (at least, the three bigger guys do).

 

EA does not help much offensively, just a bit of +ToHit and +Damage, and it's a bit busy so it cuts down into the ability to use whip attacks a lot (although it gives +Endurance so it allows you to actually use the whip and not get drained too badly). So it doesn't help that much offensively.

 

So, overall, Demons/EA should be top contenders on the defense side, while also doing good damage, but are not top contenders on the damage side. But they are still good damage, because Demons are good damage even without help. It might be a "top" contender depending on how far down the chart of "best combinations" you would go and still call something a top build, but even if it's not, it will be close to it.

 

Also, the whip attacks are fun. And electroshocking your Demons when they misbehave (which is approximately 103% of the time) is also fun. So... it's a top contender for fun 😄

I wonder how low you can get the hell on earth CD with spamming low as possible cd "energizing circuit" and perma haste. Also I heard the chain bubble and chain heal back to back combined with faraday cage make Demons basically immortal.

I gotta go test this stuff lol.

[Dr Causality]

12 hours ago, Tiklandian said:

So I'm hearing Demons/EA is a top contender? Fact or Fiction?

 

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Semi-fact.

Demons are one of the top two damage primaries (with Thugs), and also solid defensively.

EA is excellent defensively and the +Resist bubble works great with the Demons Resists, and having it give Knockdown protection is great for Demons since they take longer than other henchmen to get up (at least, the three bigger guys do).

 

EA does not help much offensively, just a bit of +ToHit and +Damage, and it's a bit busy so it cuts down into the ability to use whip attacks a lot (although it gives +Endurance so it allows you to actually use the whip and not get drained too badly). So it doesn't help that much offensively.

 

So, overall, Demons/EA should be top contenders on the defense side, while also doing good damage, but are not top contenders on the damage side. But they are still good damage, because Demons are good damage even without help. It might be a "top" contender depending on how far down the chart of "best combinations" you would go and still call something a top build, but even if it's not, it will be close to it.

 

Also, the whip attacks are fun. And electroshocking your Demons when they misbehave (which is approximately 103% of the time) is also fun. So... it's a top contender for fun 😄

 

Coyote gave a great answer above covering most of the key why's.  

 

Demon/EA can be built to other worldly levels of survivability, but has anemic feeling overall DPS potential compared to other top sets.   

 

2 hours ago, Tiklandian said:

 Also I heard the chain bubble and chain heal back to back combined with faraday cage make Demons basically immortal.

 

This is largely true.  Combined with incarnates,  I came up with a few builds that felt almost game breaking in terms of survivability.    In terms of just raw survivability, I think you can strongly argue that Demon/EA is the clear top MM combo.  

 

But that immortality comes at the cost of keeping you very busy spamming buffs/heals.    And EA doesn't have any significant damaging opportunities from it's own powers.    So the problem is,  EA MM's can't do much with that survivability themselves, beyond survive indefinitely.   So the counter argument [against Demon/EA being the top survivability combo]  will be the "best defense, is a good offense."    Meaning that in terms of overall effectiveness, the defense value of taking out enemies more quickly needs to be heavily considered, since it means needing to survive fewer punches to the face.  Or put differently it's great to be able to take 50 punches to the face, while sipping on your electric buffs and laughing, but at that point other sets like /Storm are already onto the next mob and /EA still has some "arrests" to slowly make. 

 

If you want max sturdiness and a survivability focused support role,  then Demon/EA is a top combo to consider.   But all of it's opportunities and gimmicks are towards survivability, which makes for slow going on Solo play.   

   

Edited May 27, 2020 by Dr Causality

[TheSpiritFox]

2 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

 

 

Coyote gave a great answer above covering most of the key why's.  

 

Demon/EA can be built to other worldly levels of survivability, but has anemic feeling overall DPS potential compared to other top sets.   

 

 

This is largely true.  Combined with incarnates,  I came up with a few builds that felt almost game breaking in terms of survivability.    In terms of just raw survivability, I think you can strongly argue that Demon/EA is the clear top MM combo.  

 

But that immortality comes at the cost of keeping you very busy spamming buffs/heals.    And EA doesn't have any significant damaging opportunities from it's own powers.    So the problem is,  EA MM's can't do much with that survivability themselves, beyond survive indefinitely.   So the counter argument [against Demon/EA being the top survivability combo]  will be the "best defense, is a good offense."    Meaning that in terms of overall effectiveness, the defense value of taking out enemies more quickly needs to be heavily considered, since it means needing to survive fewer punches to the face.  Or put differently it's great to be able to take 50 punches to the face, while sipping on your electric buffs and laughing, but at that point other sets like /Storm are already onto the next mob and /EA still has some "arrests" to slowly make. 

 

If you want max sturdiness and a survivability focused support role,  then Demon/EA is a top combo to consider.   But all of it's opportunities and gimmicks are towards survivability, which makes for slow going on Solo play.   

   

How do you think /ea stacks up against /nature for survivability? Between the constant aoe tick heals that really benefit MMpets keeping healing going, the extra resistance, and the absorb armor, plus some halfway decent debuffs and control, I would guess nature is tankier, but I haven't played EA and don't know it's numbers yet. 

[Tiklandian]

3 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

 

 

Coyote gave a great answer above covering most of the key why's.  

 

Demon/EA can be built to other worldly levels of survivability, but has anemic feeling overall DPS potential compared to other top sets.   

 

 

This is largely true.  Combined with incarnates,  I came up with a few builds that felt almost game breaking in terms of survivability.    In terms of just raw survivability, I think you can strongly argue that Demon/EA is the clear top MM combo.  

 

But that immortality comes at the cost of keeping you very busy spamming buffs/heals.    And EA doesn't have any significant damaging opportunities from it's own powers.    So the problem is,  EA MM's can't do much with that survivability themselves, beyond survive indefinitely.   So the counter argument [against Demon/EA being the top survivability combo]  will be the "best defense, is a good offense."    Meaning that in terms of overall effectiveness, the defense value of taking out enemies more quickly needs to be heavily considered, since it means needing to survive fewer punches to the face.  Or put differently it's great to be able to take 50 punches to the face, while sipping on your electric buffs and laughing, but at that point other sets like /Storm are already onto the next mob and /EA still has some "arrests" to slowly make. 

 

If you want max sturdiness and a survivability focused support role,  then Demon/EA is a top combo to consider.   But all of it's opportunities and gimmicks are towards survivability, which makes for slow going on Solo play.   

   

Ahh thanks. I certainly don't want low dps.

 

It looks like Demons/Cold might be overall best. But the only thing I wonder is how to heal them then.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Tiklandian

[Dr Causality]

47 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

How do you think /ea stacks up against /nature for survivability? Between the constant aoe tick heals that really benefit MMpets keeping healing going, the extra resistance, and the absorb armor, plus some halfway decent debuffs and control, I would guess nature is tankier, but I haven't played EA and don't know it's numbers yet. 

I really like /Nature.     /Nature will be able to take a larger single Alpha hit.    But in terms of pure sustained survivability it's no contest /EA is vastly ahead.     

 

• They both have the same base 11.25 Res buff shield, except for EA is missing Toxic.    
• -Dmg is 5% in /Nature's favor which is not very noticeable.
• /Nature has quite a bit more healing and Regen, but their survivablity impact is limited by HP pool.  
• So it all comes down to "Absorb is King" because it's basically Pre-healing combined with a HP buff letting you take hits above your HP total, and replenish it all again in a few seconds. 
  • And this is where /EA pulls vastly ahead of /Nature.   /Nature's Absorb is larger by something like a 1/3, but is on a massive 240s cooldown.   /EA is on a 20s base cooldown, that with even just modest global recharge will be around 5s actual cooldown.  
  • This means /EA can basically back to back cycle your Absorb and Heal, mixing another power like the Energizing Circuit for +Rech/+End Recovery in as needed.
  • The high Res from Ember Shield and Faraday cage magnifies the effective EHP of Absorb
  • Bodyguard mode further magnifies the power of Absorb when you can direct the big hits towards your MM making use of the Absorb all your pets have...
• Final bit is Faraday Cage giving your MM and pets a broad range permanent Mezz protection, so your shields don't drop....
  • This frees you up to take Barrier, use Insps for Def etc.

 

Now that doesn't mean you should drop your /Nature and roll /EA now.   /EA's is a very busy set not leaving much time for attacks.    /Nature brings more offensively to the table.  I also love /Nature's cone heal; it's really amazing what you can do with it when Ranged enchanced.    But what I really loved about /Nature was the Absorb and /EA has solidly displaced it as King of Absorb given 'Insulating Circuit' has less than 1/10th the 240s cooldown of Wild Bastion.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Dr Causality

[r0y]

The thing people seem to be missing with /Nature is Overgrowth.  It can be trimmed down to 70s or less, and lasts for 60s.  That's some decent +dam, +tohit that likely can be made perma.  My Nature/Dark defender is godlike between the perma Wild Growth (similar resists as Faraday Cage, but no mez) and the near perma Overgrowth.  Sure MM's (and everyone else) doesn't get the Platinum Standard that is Defenders, but it's still very decent.

 

Adding Wild Growth to Demons gives them near capped Resists and strong Regen, and the Nature cone-heal is the best in the game (Dark requires a target and heals reactively).  If I didn't already have a Demons/Thermal, I'd definitely check out Nature.  It's an OP set, for sure (like /Time).  While defense will be tricky, there's so much regen, absorb and heal, that it might make it a moot point.  Mezzing is still an issue, of course, and that can be sticky (that's where defense really shines).  EDIT: actually, defense (could be argued) is taken up with the -ToHit toggle Spore Cloud (17% with four Dark Watchers, ~24% when Power Boost is active for 15s).

 

While Amp Up is a great MM power, it realistically can only be perma on 1 pet/player at a time.  If it wasn't such a "plant the flag and defend it" kind of set, it'd be better.  Nature only has the one target-patch-drop heal/recovery thing, which is fairly skippable (or take it to mule something).  I like it, but it's not mandatory.

 

I might try an Elec Affinity MM, as when I play-tested the set on the beta server, I was thinking it'd be a better MM set than Defender/Corrupter.  It's far too busy to pair with a set that requires attention (e.g. blast set to do damage/debuff).  MM's don't require a lot once the pets are up and buffed, so MMs have lots of time to dedicate to Electrical Affinity.

 

Like most things, it comes down to play style.  Thermal is VERY FORGIVING, and it best for new players, Nature is very powerful, and is best for more experienced players; Electrical Affinity is best for micromanagers (MMs!) - they won't get bored!

Edited June 3, 2020 by r0y

[xl8]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:34 AM, Maxzero said:

Speaking of Demons/Cold? The Mk3 version has arrived!

Is the 4 slotted Reactive Defense in Arctic Fog purely to chase mez resist? Have you found the 7.5% makes any noticeable difference?

[Maxzero]

2 hours ago, xl8 said:

Is the 4 slotted Reactive Defense in Arctic Fog purely to chase mez resist? Have you found the 7.5% makes any noticeable difference?

Resistance.

 

If you have softcap defence why not get an extra layer and get resist too if you have slots?

 

I love getting 'double values out of my slots. In this case I am gaining the def slotting befitting Arctic Fog and getting resists from the set bonus.

 

I trying to avoid use 'mule' powers (powers only take for set bonuses and not used in play).

 

[Dixa]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:23 PM, r0y said:

The thing people seem to be missing with /Nature is Overgrowth.  It can be trimmed down to 70s or less, and lasts for 60s.  That's some decent +dam, +tohit that likely can be made perma.  My Nature/Dark defender is godlike between the perma Wild Growth (similar resists as Faraday Cage, but no mez) and the near perma Overgrowth.  Sure MM's (and everyone else) doesn't get the Platinum Standard that is Defenders, but it's still very decent.

 

Adding Wild Growth to Demons gives them near capped Resists and strong Regen, and the Nature cone-heal is the best in the game (Dark requires a target and heals reactively).  If I didn't already have a Demons/Thermal, I'd definitely check out Nature.  It's an OP set, for sure (like /Time).  While defense will be tricky, there's so much regen, absorb and heal, that it might make it a moot point.  Mezzing is still an issue, of course, and that can be sticky (that's where defense really shines).  EDIT: actually, defense (could be argued) is taken up with the -ToHit toggle Spore Cloud (17% with four Dark Watchers, ~24% when Power Boost is active for 15s).

 

While Amp Up is a great MM power, it realistically can only be perma on 1 pet/player at a time.  If it wasn't such a "plant the flag and defend it" kind of set, it'd be better.  Nature only has the one target-patch-drop heal/recovery thing, which is fairly skippable (or take it to mule something).  I like it, but it's not mandatory.

 

I might try an Elec Affinity MM, as when I play-tested the set on the beta server, I was thinking it'd be a better MM set than Defender/Corrupter.  It's far too busy to pair with a set that requires attention (e.g. blast set to do damage/debuff).  MM's don't require a lot once the pets are up and buffed, so MMs have lots of time to dedicate to Electrical Affinity.

 

Like most things, it comes down to play style.  Thermal is VERY FORGIVING, and it best for new players, Nature is very powerful, and is best for more experienced players; Electrical Affinity is best for micromanagers (MMs!) - they won't get bored!

ea's absorb is superior to overgrowth and has a stupidly short cooldown.

[r0y]

1 hour ago, Dixa said:

ea's absorb is superior to overgrowth and has a stupidly short cooldown.

Uh, that's very apples-to-oranges, isn't it?  I mean, does EA's absorb give +damage +tohit and +end reduction?  Does Nature's Overgrowth provide any Absorb?

 

Maybe you meant to compare to Wild Bastion?  (which I usually skip).  Not sure, but Electrical Affinity's Insulating Circuit is a completely different thing than Nature's Overgrowth.

[Dixa]

5 hours ago, r0y said:

Uh, that's very apples-to-oranges, isn't it?  I mean, does EA's absorb give +damage +tohit and +end reduction?  Does Nature's Overgrowth provide any Absorb?

 

Maybe you meant to compare to Wild Bastion?  (which I usually skip).  Not sure, but Electrical Affinity's Insulating Circuit is a completely different thing than Nature's Overgrowth.

er yes i confused the two powers.

 

however i do stand by my statement elsewhere that ea has essentially usurped nature for mm's, especially those that group. absorbs are insanely powerful in this game. 

[fitzsimmons]

Bot/traps.  Slow and steady wins something or other.

[kiramon]

8 hours ago, Dixa said:

ea's absorb is superior to overgrowth and has a stupidly short cooldown.

Ea in general is just so spammy on the heals/end/absorb side of things it puts every  other set to shame in that regard- assuming that’s what you’re going for, EA is the thing to do. I didn’t like it on MM, because I can’t spend any focus on anything except spamming. It’s so active, lol 

[kiramon]

13 hours ago, kiramon said:

Ea in general is just so spammy on the heals/end/absorb side of things it puts every  other set to shame in that regard- assuming that’s what you’re going for, EA is the thing to do. I didn’t like it on MM, because I can’t spend any focus on anything except spamming. It’s so active, lol 

I guess that’s sad considering most people consider MM primary so passive, but I actively control pets/blast A LOT- I swear my MM damage is so high blasting constantly 😞 in fact, I know it’s high from parsing it lol it performs better than some pets cough... lol 

[Coyote]

40 minutes ago, kiramon said:

I swear my MM damage is so high blasting constantly 😞 in fact, I know it’s high from parsing it lol it performs better than some pets cough... lol 

 

Actually, back on Live, I think it was shown that a MM with fully slotted attacks will do better than their average Tier for every set... and for some sets, do better than their highest-damage Tier (albeit at a high Endurance cost). On Homecoming, with more damage available from damage procs, this is even moreso. My necro/sonic build will hit over 100 DPS from direct damage (before Incarnate abilities), although I doubt it can handle the Endurance burn for very long. No tier of pets anywhere does 100 DPS... granted, Necro is top for single-target DPS, but pretty much every MM except maybe Ninja can hit 50 DPS, and almost no pet tiers will break 50 DPS.

 

Yes, taking and using MM attacks, especially with procs, will definitely make a noticeable increase in DPS. I mean, it's always going to be a higher DPS than your Tier 1s, and not have to worry as much about level differences. As long as you can sustain the drain, of course, which on MMs is more difficult.

[TheSpiritFox]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:47 AM, Tiklandian said:

I wonder how low you can get the hell on earth CD with spamming low as possible cd "energizing circuit" and perma haste. Also I heard the chain bubble and chain heal back to back combined with faraday cage make Demons basically immortal.

I gotta go test this stuff lol.

Make a demons storm and put some FF+rech procs in your storm powers and you can get it really, really, really low. 

[TheSpiritFox]

On 6/3/2020 at 1:23 AM, r0y said:

The thing people seem to be missing with /Nature is Overgrowth.  It can be trimmed down to 70s or less, and lasts for 60s.  That's some decent +dam, +tohit that likely can be made perma.  My Nature/Dark defender is godlike between the perma Wild Growth (similar resists as Faraday Cage, but no mez) and the near perma Overgrowth.  Sure MM's (and everyone else) doesn't get the Platinum Standard that is Defenders, but it's still very decent.

 

Adding Wild Growth to Demons gives them near capped Resists and strong Regen, and the Nature cone-heal is the best in the game (Dark requires a target and heals reactively).  If I didn't already have a Demons/Thermal, I'd definitely check out Nature.  It's an OP set, for sure (like /Time).  While defense will be tricky, there's so much regen, absorb and heal, that it might make it a moot point.  Mezzing is still an issue, of course, and that can be sticky (that's where defense really shines).  EDIT: actually, defense (could be argued) is taken up with the -ToHit toggle Spore Cloud (17% with four Dark Watchers, ~24% when Power Boost is active for 15s).

 

While Amp Up is a great MM power, it realistically can only be perma on 1 pet/player at a time.  If it wasn't such a "plant the flag and defend it" kind of set, it'd be better.  Nature only has the one target-patch-drop heal/recovery thing, which is fairly skippable (or take it to mule something).  I like it, but it's not mandatory.

 

I might try an Elec Affinity MM, as when I play-tested the set on the beta server, I was thinking it'd be a better MM set than Defender/Corrupter.  It's far too busy to pair with a set that requires attention (e.g. blast set to do damage/debuff).  MM's don't require a lot once the pets are up and buffed, so MMs have lots of time to dedicate to Electrical Affinity.

 

Like most things, it comes down to play style.  Thermal is VERY FORGIVING, and it best for new players, Nature is very powerful, and is best for more experienced players; Electrical Affinity is best for micromanagers (MMs!) - they won't get bored!

I wanted to comment. Nature is the ultimate opposite of the tankermind. Demons/nature is a pet tanking set combo all the way and does it insanely well. You can cast the ground based aoe heal patch from stealth without breaking it or drawing aggro, so I usually fire that up while I send in the pets. As soon as the pets have aggro, a boss gets the toggle debuff. I flit around with stealthy super speed on and shit kinda just ignores me 99% of the time unless I start losing pets, which does not happen often as demons/nature is tanky as fuuuuuuuck. If you let your pets tank and stay in position to actually use your cone heal on all your pets at once, you never get attacked much less mezzed. My demons/nature is vet level 42 and does not have the first mez badge for time being held or whatever yet. My bots and thugs /traps mms by comparison are working their way up that ladder as stealthing in and using poison trap and such puts me in mez range, especially like aoe sleeps and shit that some enemies have which ffgen does not guard against. 

[ScarySai]

Demons/cold, Thug/storm and thugs/traps are my most successful masterminds in terms of clear speed and killing things.

 

I have a bots/traps too, but they stall hard on +4 bosses, despite melting the packs in record time.

[kiramon]

I just have to decide what I want to pair with my Demons besides cold... it’ll be a lot of whip attacks cuz that’s how I play, so I gotta pick accordingly 

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, kiramon said:

I just have to decide what I want to pair with my Demons besides cold... it’ll be a lot of whip attacks cuz that’s how I play, so I gotta pick accordingly 

 

If you're willing to be as busy as a one-legged demon in a butt-kicking contest, Demons/EA are a great combination.

Less busy and also great is Thermal.

Time is also strong defensively, though not pairing quite as obviously with a Resist-based set like Demons, and leaves you more time for whipping.

[Nyghtmaire]

24 minutes ago, Coyote said:

[...] and leaves you more time for whipping.

[kiramon]

51 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

If you're willing to be as busy as a one-legged demon in a butt-kicking contest, Demons/EA are a great combination.

Less busy and also great is Thermal.

Time is also strong defensively, though not pairing quite as obviously with a Resist-based set like Demons, and leaves you more time for whipping.

im considering time as I want it in general... pain is thematic (mm hurt me more) so I’ve considered that lol